not every organism that died in the past became a fossil... it takes the right circumstances... its entirely possible that the environment at the time of these hybrids was not conducive to forming fossils... im not a geologist or archeologist tho... i can only theorize... but that seems to be what this thread is for
Let's simplify things. Even if matter and motions somehow 'always existed', how did the particles from the big bang form, and more importantly, form such sophistication?
Let's simplify, indeed. ClimberInOz already mentioned Occam's Razor. And I agree with him.
I do my own interpreting of the Bible. I don't rely on the Church. Anyway, if you take the time to throroughly study the other religions you'll find they have irreconcilable contradictions. Like I mentioned in a previous post, I'm not trying to have an attitude. I'm just putting some info out there in case someone wants to check it out, which I believe would benefit them.
...
You just validated my point. You have chosen your own path towards God... I have chosen mine. Who are we to say our path is the only path? And as you and i have seperate paths, so do other people and other religions... Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc.. They do not need to share the same path, or even parallel them.
Like a mountain.. there are many different ways to get to the top. There is only one mountain top, many trails that lead to it.
...
And you need to at least point out some verifiable 'irreconcilable contradictions' (even in brief) to make this point valid.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I don't really see how the info in the DVD could be disproved but I'll check that link out when I get some time.
...
You don't have to watch the DVD. you can check out the facts since it was a public court case.
Search keywords: Dover Pennsylvania Intelligent Design Trial.
Tammy Kitzmiller, et al. v. Dover Area School District, et al., Case No. 04cv2688
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Dragons.
Dragons are mythical creatures... same as Unicorns, Griffins, Minataurs and Gargoyles.
The fossils you'll find at Natural History Museums are (although originally misnamed) Dinosaurs. The more we learn about Dinosaurs, the more we discover that they were warm blooded and closer to being related to modern day birds, than reptiles.
The one thing that is uniform in this is Myth. Dragons and creation rely heavily on the Myth factor. Factual data does not come into play.
...
Also... if you choose to believe these to be true... again, God bless you on your journey. I hope you find what you are looking for... Your (relative) Truth.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Let's simplify things. Even if matter and motions somehow 'always existed', how did the particles from the big bang form, and more importantly, form such sophistication?
...
It is quite possible that our existance... in this time.. in this place... is the result of this 'Big Bang'. Just one in an infinate series of Big Bangs. Where everything in the Universe expands and contracts.
In very simple terms... like tossing a stone into the air, it reaches a point where acceleration slows and gravity causes it do come back down. In the case of the Universe, all of the matter that was expelled will reach a point where accelleration cannot escape gravity and return to the origin... where it condences... heats up... and **BANG**.
The next cycle. The matter was always there and will always be there. No one had to invent it or create it.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
That's a highly subjective view, you start from the assumption that complexity equals divine creation. Why?
I sincerely hope you're not actually comparing physical cosmology to putting a watch in a bag and banging on it with a hammer. Because if you do you might as well admit that you aren't knowledgable about the creation of planets from a scientific view. So again, why can complexity only be a attribute of god?
Let's simplify things. Even if matter and motions somehow 'always existed', how did the particles from the big bang form, and more importantly, form such sophistication?
Is assuming there's a far more sophisticated creator already out there that great an answer?
Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
...
It is quite possible that our existance... in this time.. in this place... is the result of this 'Big Bang'. Just one in an infinate series of Big Bangs. Where everything in the Universe expands and contracts.
In very simple terms... like tossing a stone into the air, it reaches a point where acceleration slows and gravity causes it do come back down. In the case of the Universe, all of the matter that was expelled will reach a point where accelleration cannot escape gravity and return to the origin... where it condences... heats up... and **BANG**.
Actually right now we don't know if the universe is finite or infinite. The deceleration of the universe's expansion might or might not be great enough to eventually reverse direction. But, in time (probably decades) we will scientifically know for sure, and that's pretty interesting.
It's a town full of losers and I'm pulling out of here to win
There's one simple question that
atheists probably hear on a regular basis in one form
or another. If a god didn't 'initially' create matter
and motion, who or what did? In other words, how did
the initial motion and matter begin to exist? That's
the question the arguments all seem to come down to in
the end. Technical arguments about the earth could be made all day by either
side, but unless an atheist at least has an explanation
about the very beginning of matter and motion, then what's the
point in even trying to make a case against creationism?
It seems clear to me that God didn't create a
truth so technically sophisticated that it would take
half a lifetime of text book research to catch a
glimpse of it, even if that was possible. If that was
the case then only the
most scientifically-oriented, intelligent few would be
saved by His gospel (the gospel is the story of
Christ's death and the explanation of it's saving purpose)
and the gospel itself (the thread of the entire
Bible) would be of little importance. Instead, as the
Bible states it, God simply exists and His creation
makes it obvious to all. I believe the Bible teaches
that knowing the truth is only possible by having the
desire to know God (the truth). Being of the Calvinist
persuasion, I believe having this desire is only
possible when God gives it, and gives it only to some.
I can't advocate the Calvinism aspect of the Bible
with total confidence and I could even be wrong about
it. People having this desire to know God and humility
toward God seem to be an intertwining process.
According to the Bible, pride is one of the seven
abominations which God hates, the sin that ushered in
the initial fall (the angelic fall) as well as the
initial fall of man, and is the sin that most often
snared men throughout the Bible. It's no wonder then,
God choosing to unfold a creation story in Genesis
filled with so much wild, almost fantasy-like symbolic
imagery for the proud to scoff at and stumble upon.
I'm not trying to accuse you of being proud. I'm
trying to explain to you a mental pic of God's ways in
relation to mankind and creation.
douche
i cant believe the guy you sent this to is your friend
they call them fingers, but i never see them fing. oh, there they go
Actually right now we don't know if the universe is finite or infinite. The deceleration of the universe's expansion might or might not be great enough to eventually reverse direction. But, in time (probably decades) we will scientifically know for sure, and that's pretty interesting.
...
I know. I think it is fascinating.
And it is ridiculous to think that we know everything at this point in Man's evolution... evolution or creation. But, the science is pointing towards eveolution and away from creation... just as we once believe the Earth was the center of the Universe, based solely on Man's own vanity and the God we created in our image.
...
and who knows? For all we know God creates life through random order, not with Man as His ultimate goal... it's possible that Adam and Eve were the first bacteria that emerged from the premordial soup and evolved into the diversity of life on this planet. Maybe God is life itself and Man is created in His image because we possess life... and so are cats and dogs and otters and fleas and maggots and daffodils.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Dragons.
Dragons are mythical creatures... same as Unicorns, Griffins, Minataurs and Gargoyles.
The fossils you'll find at Natural History Museums are (although originally misnamed) Dinosaurs. The more we learn about Dinosaurs, the more we discover that they were warm blooded and closer to being related to modern day birds, than reptiles.
The one thing that is uniform in this is Myth. Dragons and creation rely heavily on the Myth factor. Factual data does not come into play.
...
Also... if you choose to believe these to be true... again, God bless you on your journey. I hope you find what you are looking for... Your (relative) Truth.
what interests me most right now(and this thought popped into my head the other week) is how such a huge animal such as an apatosaurus(for example) came out of an egg. im not saying they didn't. but it makes me think. cause when i look at the animal kingdom now, the largest animals in it are live births. just a thought... but it's got me thinking.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
what interests me most right now(and this thought popped into my head the other week) is how such a huge animal such as an apatosauC401381
rus(for example) came out of an egg. im not saying they didn't. but it makes me think. cause when i look at the animal kingdom now, the largest animals in it are live births. just a thought... but it's got me thinking.
...
Who knows? Look at the giant Panda... them suckers grow pretty big. When they are born, they are little tiny things. Maybe Nature slated those giant beasts (dinosaurs) for extinction so the smaller mammals hiding in the underbrush could take over.
...
Also the apatosaurus (formerly known brontosarus), is believe to be more mammalian in it's behaviour, than reptilian, in that it is now believed to have been a grazing animal that lived in herds. I don't know whether it layed eggs like the Raptors or gave live birth.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Who knows? Look at the giant Panda... them suckers grow pretty big. When they are born, they are little tiny things. Maybe Nature slated those giant beasts (dinosaurs) for extinction so the smaller mammals hiding in the underbrush could take over.
yeah but still the panda is a live birth and a mammal. im looking at animals such as elephants and blue whales(just to pick the largest land and marine critters). imagine an elephant hatching out of an egg.
and how is it that they decided dinosaurs were reptiles anyway?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
yeah but still the panda is a live birth and a mammal. im looking at animals such as elephants and blue whales(just to pick the largest land and marine critters). imagine an elephant hatching out of an egg.
and how is it that they decided dinosaurs were reptiles anyway?
...
Mistake. The earlier finds categorized them a reptile because they thought the bone structure closely resembled lizards (sarus). As more and more fossils were discovered, palentologist discovered that they sometimes had rib cages like that of elephants or hippos.
I don't know what data they have on birthing... other than the smaller, birdlike dinosaurs.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Mistake. The earlier finds categorized them a reptile because they thought the bone structure closely resembled lizards (sarus). As more and more fossils were discovered, palentologist discovered that they sometimes had rib cages like that of elephants or hippos.
I don't know what data they have on birthing... other than the smaller, birdlike dinosaurs.
and then we have the platypus and the echidna. both mammals and both hatch from eggs. aah nature... she's a pistol.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
and then we have the platypus and the echidna. both mammals and both hatch from eggs. aah nature... she's a pistol.
...
I wonder who's going to take over went Nature decides to move the 'Great Apes' to the extinction list... Bees? Ants?
Whoever it is... i hope in their evolution, they learn from our mistakes and don't try to claim God in their image and leave the rest of the life forms out in the cold. God is for every living thing.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
I wonder who's going to take over went Nature decides to move the 'Great Apes' to the extinction list... Bees? Ants?
Whoever it is... i hope in their evolution, they learn from our mistakes and don't try to claim God in their image and leave the rest of the life forms out in the cold. God is for every living thing.
well cosmo i reckon that when nature decides great apes' time is up she'll have to pull something quite cataclysmic out of her bag. and in doing so we wont be the only casualities. the earth will be purged of all complex beings and she will start anew. either that or we'll all be wiped out by some flu type thing and koalas will take over the world.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
not every organism that died in the past became a fossil... it takes the right circumstances... its entirely possible that the environment at the time of these hybrids was not conducive to forming fossils... im not a geologist or archeologist tho... i can only theorize... but that seems to be what this thread is for
You and me both. I try to keep in a constant state of learning but sometimes it's just easier to listen to pearl jam.
[its entirely possible that the environment at the time of these hybrids was not conducive to forming fossils.
I don't remember the popular atheist's take on how many years ago the dinos began walking the earth and when they ceased to exist. I'm assuming that info would be necessary in determing whether or not your statement could be correct. The longer the span, the more unlikely the statement would be correct. The longer the span, the more periods of transition and possibilties of environments conducive to fossil forming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikesguitar
I do my own interpreting of the Bible. I don't rely on the Church. Anyway, if you take the time to throroughly study the other religions you'll find they have irreconcilable contradictions. Like I mentioned in a previous post, I'm not trying to have an attitude. I'm just putting some info out there in case someone wants to check it out, which I believe would benefit them.
...
You just validated my point.
I didn't make myself clear, so I think you misunderstood me. Yeah, other religions contradict Christianity. But, for the most part, my point was that I decided after a lot of research that I believed the other religions contradict themselves.
You have chosen your own path towards God... I have chosen mine. Who are we to say our path is the only path? And as you and i have seperate paths, so do other people and other religions... Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc.. They do not need to share the same path, or even parallel them.
Like a mountain.. there are many different ways to get to the top. There is only one mountain top, many trails that lead to it.
...
And you need to at least point out some verifiable 'irreconcilable contradictions' (even in brief) to make this point valid.
To be honest, it's been years since I studied other religions. For the most part I only remember the conclusions I came to at the time/thinking the other religions contradicted themselves.
Though Islam existed before Mohamad, he and his teachings have become the center of mainstream Islam. This is one man, arguably immoral as they come (I'm not trying to be offensive, so sorry if that is too blunt for anyone), without witnesses, claimed to hear God's special instruction for the world one day while in a cave. This instruction is now lived out word for word through Islam. Now, if you're still openminded to Islam at this point I'll continue with the two contradictions I remember about this religion. The contradictions pertain to both Islam and Christianity. Though Islam claims Jesus was one of their prophets (second in line to Mohamad in importance, if I'm not mistaken), it claims that Jesus was not God. But Jesus did claim to be God (the Jewish pharisees also accused him of this) and He did things only God could do (raised the dead including himself, forgave sin, etc.). Islam can't have Jesus as both prophet and liar. Also, if I remember right, Islam holds to the swoon theory in regards to Christ's crucifixion, which is very easily refuted by history and commen sense.
In regards to Judaism, old testament religion was designed to be temporary. This is why old testament law (blood sacrafices, countless ceremonies, nearly impossible regulations; etc. ) aren't carried out today and were generally replaced by various occult practices (numerology, talismans, amulets, and incarnation of divine names and words) in the Cabala that contradict former OT teachings which Judaism claims as it's foundational beliefs.
...
Dragons.
Dragons are mythical creatures... same as Unicorns, Griffins, Minataurs and Gargoyles.
The fossils you'll find at Natural History Museums are (although originally misnamed) Dinosaurs. The more we learn about Dinosaurs, the more we discover that they were warm blooded and closer to being related to modern day birds, than reptiles.
The one thing that is uniform in this is Myth. Dragons and creation rely heavily on the Myth factor. Factual data does not come into play.
...
Also... if you choose to believe these to be true... again, God bless you on your journey. I hope you find what you are looking for... Your (relative) Truth.
__________________
I only quickly scanned through the creationism article you posted. I didn't give much thought to the "dragons" bit. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and assumed he was referring to dinos when he used "dragons". If this is not the case then I feel sorry for that person.
I was asking you why you thought the idea of dinos and humans living in the same time period was impossible.
...
It is quite possible that our existance... in this time.. in this place... is the result of this 'Big Bang'. Just one in an infinate series of Big Bangs. Where everything in the Universe expands and contracts.
In very simple terms... like tossing a stone into the air, it reaches a point where acceleration slows and gravity causes it do come back down. In the case of the Universe, all of the matter that was expelled will reach a point where accelleration cannot escape gravity and return to the origin... where it condences... heats up... and **BANG**.
I'm fine with the idea of God creating the world this way but I didn't ever get past the idea of the matter and motion (needed for the bang) not having a way to exist outside of creation.
I'm fine with the idea of God creating the world this way but I didn't ever get past the idea of the matter and motion (needed for the bang) not having a way to exist outside of creation.
I have (if you'll pardon my arrogance) an above average understanding of modern cosmology. I know that their are many theories that have supporting evidence (it is not just guess work). I also know that when it comes to the origin of the universe we still can only hypothesize based on the conditions we see in the present and early universe.
But all of this is beside the point. Our inability to explain the origins of the universe means only that we do not know how the universe began. It is not evidence in favor of a creator, nor is it evidence that a scientific explanation is forever out of reach. All it means is that we do not know right now.
Consider the very nature of the question we are addressing- it is hardly surprising that many of us have a hard time comprehending the concepts. I understand that faith is the dominant factor in most religous beliefs, but I personally think that it would be selling short the grandness of the universe to assume that, because we cannot yet understand the origins of this...
that it must therefore have been created. We have achieved wonderful things in our tiny corner of the solar system, but we must never forget that we are very small and very insignifigant to the universe. If we survive long enough as a species we may well one day know all that there is to know, but we should not expect that to be the case. To do so would be pretentious beyond belief.
why anyone would ever want to solve all that instead of just appreciating it is beyond me... there doesnt need to be an answer... the beauty is in the mystery
I would label myself an agnostic. It's the creation of the universe thing I just can't wrap my head around. I sincerely believe there is something out there. I've found myself becoming interested in Judaism, which is strange because I was baptized Catholic, though I don't label myself a Catholic. I guess I have two issues with Christianity -- while I think Jesus was a great prophet and a better guy (from what I've read), the whole "son of God" thing is tough to swallow; my other issue is with free will. I often hear Christians explain that God has a plan for them and guides them. I guess I believe more in free will, which is something Judaism addresses. My main problem with Judaism, however, is its political slant. Practitioners' belief in Israel being the one true state and a one-world Jewish state at some point scares me a little. But then again, I've just started looking into the religion so I'm no expert. Right now I'm content to believe there is something out there, whatever it is, that created everything. I don't think a belief in a higher power automatically means that evolution is bunk. I guess I think if there is a plan it's just part of the plan. A belief in a higher power or creator and a belief in science aren't mutually exclusive, IMO. I guess we'll all find out the answers of an afterlife in whatever form it does or doesn't take when we die.
"Almost all those politicians took money from Enron, and there they are holding hearings. That's like O.J. Simpson getting in the Rae Carruth jury pool." -- Charles Barkley
"I do my own interpreting of the Bible. I don't rely on the Church. Anyway, if you take the time to throroughly study the other religions you'll find they have irreconcilable contradictions. Like I mentioned in a previous post, I'm not trying to have an attitude. I'm just putting some info out there in case someone wants to check it out, which I believe would benefit them.
I didn't make myself clear, so I think you misunderstood me. Yeah, other religions contradict Christianity. But, for the most part, my point was that I decided after a lot of research that I believed the other religions contradict themselves.
To be honest, it's been years since I studied other religions. For the most part I only remember the conclusions I came to at the time/thinking the other religions contradicted themselves.
Though Islam existed before Mohamad, he and his teachings have become the center of mainstream Islam. This is one man, arguably immoral as they come (I'm not trying to be offensive, so sorry if that is too blunt for anyone), without witnesses, claimed to hear God's special instruction for the world one day while in a cave. This instruction is now lived out word for word through Islam. Now, if you're still openminded to Islam at this point I'll continue with the two contradictions I remember about this religion. The contradictions pertain to both Islam and Christianity. Though Islam claims Jesus was one of their prophets (second in line to Mohamad in importance, if I'm not mistaken), it claims that Jesus was not God. But Jesus did claim to be God (the Jewish pharisees also accused him of this) and He did things only God could do (raised the dead including himself, forgave sin, etc.). Islam can't have Jesus as both prophet and liar. Also, if I remember right, Islam holds to the swoon theory in regards to Christ's crucifixion, which is very easily refuted by history and commen sense.
In regards to Judaism, old testament religion was designed to be temporary. This is why old testament law (blood sacrafices, countless ceremonies, nearly impossible regulations; etc. ) aren't carried out today and were generally replaced by various occult practices (numerology, talismans, amulets, and incarnation of divine names and words) in the Cabala that contradict former OT teachings which Judaism claims as it's foundational beliefs.
More info on the Cabala: http://www.equip.org/site/c.muI1LaMNJrE/b.2886073/k.B02A/DC040.htm
...
Either you do your own interpretation of the Bible and do not follow any Church... or you don't. You cannot do both without being a walking contradiction. From what you have been saying in this thread... It sounds like you are saying that you have done independent research and have come to the conclusion that Christianity (along with its basic doctrines) is the religion you have chosen to follow.
And it sounds like a contradiction to dismiss the Old Testament as a temporary handshake agreement with God... then, base your belief system on the Old Testament (i.e. Genesis).
I may be mistaken, but, I can only go on what you have supplied.
...
Also, Yes, I am still openminded to Islam... the same openmindedness I hold for Christianity and Judaism.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I only quickly scanned through the creationism article you posted. I didn't give much thought to the "dragons" bit. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and assumed he was referring to dinos when he used "dragons". If this is not the case then I feel sorry for that person.
I was asking you why you thought the idea of dinos and humans living in the same time period was impossible.
...
Because there is no evidence that dinosaurs and Man walked the Earth at the same time. It is a belief that Man and the dinosaurs lived in the same period.
There is evidence that Man and the dinosaurs are seperated by 65 million years.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I'm fine with the idea of God creating the world this way but I didn't ever get past the idea of the matter and motion (needed for the bang) not having a way to exist outside of creation.
...
Heat and pressure. That is the scientific explanation, that is known today, that caused the Big Bang.
And matter does not need to have a 'Creator' if it has always existed. For example, I clean and vaccuum my living room and within a week's time, there are dust bunnies under my couch. Those dust bunnies did not exist after I have cleaned and vaccuumed my floors, but the dust particles in the air did exist. God did not create my dust bunnies... that can be explained with simple physics. Your claim is that the dust (matter) needed to be created. My explanation is that the dust was always there.
The Earth, The Solar System, The Sun, The Stars all were created along the same lines. The Earth was formed by cosmic debris that collected and condensed following the basic laws of physics.
...
From what it sounds like, you are trying to disprove Evolution with the basic assumption that there was never any matter in the Universe. If that were the case, then the Universe never existed and somehow appeared... created by God. If that is the case... that everything needs to be created... then, who created God? Where did God come from?
I don't claim to know... I do know that no one knows. We believe. But, belief is not knowledge and belief is not truth. Your belief is based upon the writings of the Bible. I, personally, do not trust the Bible bacause it was written by Man... and for hundreds of years, was only available to the Church (which was also created by Man).
I find more wonder in the world and the stars in the sky... and cast a jaundiced eye at Man made religions.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Comments
I don't agree. Why?
not every organism that died in the past became a fossil... it takes the right circumstances... its entirely possible that the environment at the time of these hybrids was not conducive to forming fossils... im not a geologist or archeologist tho... i can only theorize... but that seems to be what this thread is for
http://seanbriceart.com/
Let's simplify, indeed. ClimberInOz already mentioned Occam's Razor. And I agree with him.
naděje umírá poslední
This is an interesting read.
http://www.talkdesign.org/faqs/flagellum.html
naděje umírá poslední
You just validated my point. You have chosen your own path towards God... I have chosen mine. Who are we to say our path is the only path? And as you and i have seperate paths, so do other people and other religions... Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc.. They do not need to share the same path, or even parallel them.
Like a mountain.. there are many different ways to get to the top. There is only one mountain top, many trails that lead to it.
...
And you need to at least point out some verifiable 'irreconcilable contradictions' (even in brief) to make this point valid.
Hail, Hail!!!
You don't have to watch the DVD. you can check out the facts since it was a public court case.
Search keywords: Dover Pennsylvania Intelligent Design Trial.
Tammy Kitzmiller, et al. v. Dover Area School District, et al., Case No. 04cv2688
Hail, Hail!!!
Dragons.
Dragons are mythical creatures... same as Unicorns, Griffins, Minataurs and Gargoyles.
The fossils you'll find at Natural History Museums are (although originally misnamed) Dinosaurs. The more we learn about Dinosaurs, the more we discover that they were warm blooded and closer to being related to modern day birds, than reptiles.
The one thing that is uniform in this is Myth. Dragons and creation rely heavily on the Myth factor. Factual data does not come into play.
...
Also... if you choose to believe these to be true... again, God bless you on your journey. I hope you find what you are looking for... Your (relative) Truth.
Hail, Hail!!!
It is quite possible that our existance... in this time.. in this place... is the result of this 'Big Bang'. Just one in an infinate series of Big Bangs. Where everything in the Universe expands and contracts.
In very simple terms... like tossing a stone into the air, it reaches a point where acceleration slows and gravity causes it do come back down. In the case of the Universe, all of the matter that was expelled will reach a point where accelleration cannot escape gravity and return to the origin... where it condences... heats up... and **BANG**.
The next cycle. The matter was always there and will always be there. No one had to invent it or create it.
Hail, Hail!!!
Is assuming there's a far more sophisticated creator already out there that great an answer?
Actually right now we don't know if the universe is finite or infinite. The deceleration of the universe's expansion might or might not be great enough to eventually reverse direction. But, in time (probably decades) we will scientifically know for sure, and that's pretty interesting.
i cant believe the guy you sent this to is your friend
I know. I think it is fascinating.
And it is ridiculous to think that we know everything at this point in Man's evolution... evolution or creation. But, the science is pointing towards eveolution and away from creation... just as we once believe the Earth was the center of the Universe, based solely on Man's own vanity and the God we created in our image.
...
and who knows? For all we know God creates life through random order, not with Man as His ultimate goal... it's possible that Adam and Eve were the first bacteria that emerged from the premordial soup and evolved into the diversity of life on this planet. Maybe God is life itself and Man is created in His image because we possess life... and so are cats and dogs and otters and fleas and maggots and daffodils.
Hail, Hail!!!
what interests me most right now(and this thought popped into my head the other week) is how such a huge animal such as an apatosaurus(for example) came out of an egg. im not saying they didn't. but it makes me think. cause when i look at the animal kingdom now, the largest animals in it are live births. just a thought... but it's got me thinking.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Who knows? Look at the giant Panda... them suckers grow pretty big. When they are born, they are little tiny things. Maybe Nature slated those giant beasts (dinosaurs) for extinction so the smaller mammals hiding in the underbrush could take over.
...
Also the apatosaurus (formerly known brontosarus), is believe to be more mammalian in it's behaviour, than reptilian, in that it is now believed to have been a grazing animal that lived in herds. I don't know whether it layed eggs like the Raptors or gave live birth.
Hail, Hail!!!
yeah but still the panda is a live birth and a mammal. im looking at animals such as elephants and blue whales(just to pick the largest land and marine critters). imagine an elephant hatching out of an egg.
and how is it that they decided dinosaurs were reptiles anyway?
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Mistake. The earlier finds categorized them a reptile because they thought the bone structure closely resembled lizards (sarus). As more and more fossils were discovered, palentologist discovered that they sometimes had rib cages like that of elephants or hippos.
I don't know what data they have on birthing... other than the smaller, birdlike dinosaurs.
Hail, Hail!!!
and then we have the platypus and the echidna. both mammals and both hatch from eggs.
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I wonder who's going to take over went Nature decides to move the 'Great Apes' to the extinction list... Bees? Ants?
Whoever it is... i hope in their evolution, they learn from our mistakes and don't try to claim God in their image and leave the rest of the life forms out in the cold. God is for every living thing.
Hail, Hail!!!
well cosmo i reckon that when nature decides great apes' time is up she'll have to pull something quite cataclysmic out of her bag. and in doing so we wont be the only casualities. the earth will be purged of all complex beings and she will start anew. either that or we'll all be wiped out by some flu type thing and koalas will take over the world.
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You and me both. I try to keep in a constant state of learning but sometimes it's just easier to listen to pearl jam.
I don't remember the popular atheist's take on how many years ago the dinos began walking the earth and when they ceased to exist. I'm assuming that info would be necessary in determing whether or not your statement could be correct. The longer the span, the more unlikely the statement would be correct. The longer the span, the more periods of transition and possibilties of environments conducive to fossil forming.
Originally Posted by mikesguitar
I do my own interpreting of the Bible. I don't rely on the Church. Anyway, if you take the time to throroughly study the other religions you'll find they have irreconcilable contradictions. Like I mentioned in a previous post, I'm not trying to have an attitude. I'm just putting some info out there in case someone wants to check it out, which I believe would benefit them.
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You just validated my point.
I didn't make myself clear, so I think you misunderstood me. Yeah, other religions contradict Christianity. But, for the most part, my point was that I decided after a lot of research that I believed the other religions contradict themselves.
You have chosen your own path towards God... I have chosen mine. Who are we to say our path is the only path? And as you and i have seperate paths, so do other people and other religions... Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc.. They do not need to share the same path, or even parallel them.
Like a mountain.. there are many different ways to get to the top. There is only one mountain top, many trails that lead to it.
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And you need to at least point out some verifiable 'irreconcilable contradictions' (even in brief) to make this point valid.
To be honest, it's been years since I studied other religions. For the most part I only remember the conclusions I came to at the time/thinking the other religions contradicted themselves.
Though Islam existed before Mohamad, he and his teachings have become the center of mainstream Islam. This is one man, arguably immoral as they come (I'm not trying to be offensive, so sorry if that is too blunt for anyone), without witnesses, claimed to hear God's special instruction for the world one day while in a cave. This instruction is now lived out word for word through Islam. Now, if you're still openminded to Islam at this point I'll continue with the two contradictions I remember about this religion. The contradictions pertain to both Islam and Christianity. Though Islam claims Jesus was one of their prophets (second in line to Mohamad in importance, if I'm not mistaken), it claims that Jesus was not God. But Jesus did claim to be God (the Jewish pharisees also accused him of this) and He did things only God could do (raised the dead including himself, forgave sin, etc.). Islam can't have Jesus as both prophet and liar. Also, if I remember right, Islam holds to the swoon theory in regards to Christ's crucifixion, which is very easily refuted by history and commen sense.
In regards to Judaism, old testament religion was designed to be temporary. This is why old testament law (blood sacrafices, countless ceremonies, nearly impossible regulations; etc. ) aren't carried out today and were generally replaced by various occult practices (numerology, talismans, amulets, and incarnation of divine names and words) in the Cabala that contradict former OT teachings which Judaism claims as it's foundational beliefs.
More info on the Cabala:
http://www.equip.org/site/c.muI1LaMNJrE/b.2886073/k.B02A/DC040.htm
Originally Posted by mikesguitar
I'm just curious what your refutation of this is.
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I only quickly scanned through the creationism article you posted. I didn't give much thought to the "dragons" bit. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and assumed he was referring to dinos when he used "dragons". If this is not the case then I feel sorry for that person.
I was asking you why you thought the idea of dinos and humans living in the same time period was impossible.
I have (if you'll pardon my arrogance) an above average understanding of modern cosmology. I know that their are many theories that have supporting evidence (it is not just guess work). I also know that when it comes to the origin of the universe we still can only hypothesize based on the conditions we see in the present and early universe.
But all of this is beside the point. Our inability to explain the origins of the universe means only that we do not know how the universe began. It is not evidence in favor of a creator, nor is it evidence that a scientific explanation is forever out of reach. All it means is that we do not know right now.
Consider the very nature of the question we are addressing- it is hardly surprising that many of us have a hard time comprehending the concepts. I understand that faith is the dominant factor in most religous beliefs, but I personally think that it would be selling short the grandness of the universe to assume that, because we cannot yet understand the origins of this...
http://www.jonathanminard.com/EarthSpace/Hubble_Ultra_Deep_Field_Black_point_edit.jpg
that it must therefore have been created. We have achieved wonderful things in our tiny corner of the solar system, but we must never forget that we are very small and very insignifigant to the universe. If we survive long enough as a species we may well one day know all that there is to know, but we should not expect that to be the case. To do so would be pretentious beyond belief.
why anyone would ever want to solve all that instead of just appreciating it is beyond me... there doesnt need to be an answer... the beauty is in the mystery
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Either you do your own interpretation of the Bible and do not follow any Church... or you don't. You cannot do both without being a walking contradiction. From what you have been saying in this thread... It sounds like you are saying that you have done independent research and have come to the conclusion that Christianity (along with its basic doctrines) is the religion you have chosen to follow.
And it sounds like a contradiction to dismiss the Old Testament as a temporary handshake agreement with God... then, base your belief system on the Old Testament (i.e. Genesis).
I may be mistaken, but, I can only go on what you have supplied.
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Also, Yes, I am still openminded to Islam... the same openmindedness I hold for Christianity and Judaism.
Hail, Hail!!!
Because there is no evidence that dinosaurs and Man walked the Earth at the same time. It is a belief that Man and the dinosaurs lived in the same period.
There is evidence that Man and the dinosaurs are seperated by 65 million years.
Hail, Hail!!!
Heat and pressure. That is the scientific explanation, that is known today, that caused the Big Bang.
And matter does not need to have a 'Creator' if it has always existed. For example, I clean and vaccuum my living room and within a week's time, there are dust bunnies under my couch. Those dust bunnies did not exist after I have cleaned and vaccuumed my floors, but the dust particles in the air did exist. God did not create my dust bunnies... that can be explained with simple physics. Your claim is that the dust (matter) needed to be created. My explanation is that the dust was always there.
The Earth, The Solar System, The Sun, The Stars all were created along the same lines. The Earth was formed by cosmic debris that collected and condensed following the basic laws of physics.
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From what it sounds like, you are trying to disprove Evolution with the basic assumption that there was never any matter in the Universe. If that were the case, then the Universe never existed and somehow appeared... created by God. If that is the case... that everything needs to be created... then, who created God? Where did God come from?
I don't claim to know... I do know that no one knows. We believe. But, belief is not knowledge and belief is not truth. Your belief is based upon the writings of the Bible. I, personally, do not trust the Bible bacause it was written by Man... and for hundreds of years, was only available to the Church (which was also created by Man).
I find more wonder in the world and the stars in the sky... and cast a jaundiced eye at Man made religions.
Hail, Hail!!!