sin and forgiveness

sponger wrote:

...because without the phrase, "He died for our sins," the popularity of Jesus would never have gained so much ground. Point in fact is that the most common visual depiction of Jesus involves the image of his being crucified.

That is, for many people who follow christian ideology, the suffering of Jesus attests to his sincere concern for mankind. It is an establishment of credibility on his part.

Question: "Why did Jesus have to experience so much suffering?"

Answer: Isaiah 52:14 declares, “Just as there were many who were appalled at Him — His appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness.” Jesus suffered most severely throughout the trials, torture, and crucifixion (Matthew chapter 27, Mark chapter 15, Luke chapter 23, John chapter 19). As horrible as His physical suffering was, it was nothing compared to the spiritual suffering He went through. 2 Corinthians 5:21, "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." Jesus had the weight of the sins of the entire world on Him (1 John 2:2). It was sin that caused Jesus to cry out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46). So, as brutal as Jesus' physical suffering was, it was nothing compared to His having to bear our sins - and die for our sins (Romans 5:8).

Isaiah chapter 53, verses 3 and 5 especially predict Jesus’ suffering, “He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.” Psalm 22:14-18 is another powerful passage predicting the suffering of the Messiah, “I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted away within me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death. Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.”

Why did Jesus have to suffer so badly? Some think that Jesus' physical torture was part of His being punished for our sins, in our place. To some extent, this is likely the case. At the same time, the torture Jesus underwent speaks more of the hatred and cruelty of humanity than it does of God's punishment for sin. Satan's absolute hatred of God and Jesus was surely a part of the motivation behind the relentless torture and abuse. Jesus' suffering is the ultimate example of how sinful man feels toward a holy God (Romans 3:10-18).




I just got this off of a search; found it interesting........


But I also think that the reason for sin and forgiveness lies in personal conviction. When I first began to search on my own, as an adult, there were definite big things that I felt God wanted me to change but then after those things were accomplished (by much pain, difficulty, and help from Him), then there were things that I felt I should also change.

I will say though, after a lot of faith searching, a lot of desperation, and a lot of uncomfortable as well as painful things I went through, that a lot of the things we are so judgemental about are so off of His mark. In other words, we are a lot more arrogant and rule making than He would be. I try not to do that........I am no one to say I am forgiven and someone else isn't. But I also think,like in the cases of priests abusing alter boys, little boys in general, that they KNOW the sin they are committing; that makes them MORE guilty.

you know?

Abuskedti wrote:

No. What I mean is, whenever someone chooses to do something, they believe, all things considered, that it is the right thing to do.

Noone ever does anything they know is wrong. Now all things are surely completed.. and they may know there is some wrong, but in sum - all the good and bad totalled in every action - adds up on the good side, or they would not have done it.

in hindsight, they may realize they were looking at it wrong... but nobody ever does anything they think is wrong in sum.. or they wouldn't do it.

that is what I believe.

I totally agree with you about this.

Even when people do what they "know" is wrong...they don't yet fully know it, imo, and are still involved in the learning process (by experience)... When they know better, they do better.

Abuskedti wrote:

Sooooooo what about things commited after recognition of the wrong? Or do you believe, as I do, that virtually nobody does that.

I agree with you. We truly are as innocent children...all of us...all the time. All the other stuff,...that's about the unhealthy shame/blame and unhealthy guilt that our flawed caregivers taught us, coming from their own place of error. We keep perpetuating it as though it's real. And it's not, except in our belief of it.

Therefore the true forgiveness is merely recognizing the truth. Many, many of us are not even remotely ready for this....We are always perfect in God's eyes. We are One with God. And God always knows this, coming from that place of pure awareness. Also, since God comes from a place beyond time...where separation and distance does not exist...God doesn't care if we wake up today, or a million years from now. The separation from this perfection stems from our egos and is in our experience alone...

When we go to the Light...God doesn't judge us...Instead, we see our faulty ego-selves in the Light of Truth, and we see our flaws clearly, for what they are. As long as we hold up separation, we cannot be "home", at-One. When we truly see the error of our ways, we feel deep sorrow, and feel the urge to come together with our truth. To bridge the sense of separation.


great points, btw, Abu!

catefrances wrote:

you say there is nothing wrong with being ego centred, but you say we remain so because we are intolerant of views we dont appreciate. why must we be tolerant of views we have already assessed and deemed, as ive said before, as being too ridiculous for us to contemplate them being absorbed into our views? why must i tolerate views i clearly see as being nonsensical when i clearly understand the WHY but see no value in the WHAT that they are? just because i am intolerant of a view doesnt mean i dont appreciate its reason for existing.

okay...my opinion...the thing is I'm not overly attached to my view because it changes soooo much and so quickly. I may think differently next week....

If I find a view "too ridiculous" to contemplate, I have to open my mind up, or else I see myself as limiting my view. So I have to find a way to understand that view. I don't necessarily absorb the "ridiculous" idea into my view, itself. For me, if something sounds "ridiculous", it's because I've progressed past that type of thinking and I know it doesn't work for me...so there's little point it trying to do it again. But I will harmonize with it, and understand where that person is coming from. When I shut down and draw lines between myself or anyone, I personally see that I limit myself. I'm for expansion and growth.

I also own all my emotional responses...so if I don't tolerate something well, I keep that to myself--I own it and resolve that conflict within myself. I don't put that onto someone else by being deliberately repelling, or hostile, for the most part.

For example, I can't call someone's view "ridiculous" and put that label on them. If I find something "ridiculous" that's about me. And I know it gives people bad vibes if I project that outwards. They don't deserve to deal with my inner conflicts because of who they are or what they believe.

So, given I don't go by "ridiculous" views, but rather learn to understand them for that person, is that what you mean when you say it doesn't mean you don't appreciate reason for ridiculous views existing?

I think you and I might sometimes see things similarly, and yet communicate them differently.

angelica wrote:

I totally agree with you about this.

Even when people do what they "know" is wrong...they don't yet fully know it, imo, and are still involved in the learning process (by experience)... When they know better, they do better.

That's a real load of malarky. There are lots of people out there who are willing to rip you off, hold a knife to your face, break into your home, cheat on their spouses, skip out on paying child support....I can go on but it gets a bit boring putting that much energy into considering the limitless possibilities for human malevolence. There is a very real thing as willful evil.

Sweet Emotion wrote:

That's a real load of malarky. There are lots of people out there who are willing to rip you off, hold a knife to your face, break into your home, cheat on their spouses, skip out on paying child support....I can go on but it gets a bit boring putting that much energy into considering the limitless possibilities for human malevolence. There is a very real thing as willful evil.

ok, so jumping in here (if it is ok; if not sorry; truly),

but there is willful evil and whether you are a Christian or not, you understand the difference between that and the choices made based on that. Very many people, people I know as well personally (sorry to admit), hold very different standards for themselves as well as others. Others are finely critiqued whereas they are allowed mistakes that are followed by weak excuses. So the point I am trying to make is that we can lie to ourselves so damn much that we are foggy on right and wrong. i.e., like maybe a thief would justify the stealing with the fact that they have nothing, life has been unfair to them, people who have things are all arrogant assholes, etc., and that stealing from them is somehow right.

So, yes, there is willful evil, and that to me is the priests who have molested little boys, young teens, etc. That to me, is insane to think they by any means at all could be unclear on their intentions, and if someone would like to think that the priests are sick, (so many of them?? maybe they should tweak the application process, perhaps??) then the men who covered up these crimes would be accountable. So that is also weak and bullshit.

I guess my point is I see both of the points here. Some people do better when they know better and some never ever do. We are all too complicated to place people under broad catagories.

Sweet Emotion wrote:

Angelica, I have been to Maximum Security Prisons. I've been in hostile neighborhoods. I've been in some really shitty places with some really shitty people and I can tell you that there are a lot of them who know exactly what they are doing, what the results of their actions will lead to, and have absolutely no remorse for the damage they leave in the wakes of their abuses.

We live in a society where people are trained to detach from and deny who they are deep inside. Therefore people intellectually know their wrongs, but do not know them. When people awaken from their emotional paralysis and from the illusions they labour under...they are met with the full accountability of their actions. When one faces that, they cannot go another step without repentance.

Sweet Emotion wrote:

Who are they deep inside? Are they misunderstood, impoverished, tortured souls? Are they all good people who, because of some abuses in early childhood just need a prod in the right direction to get on the straight and narrow? Are they the victims of having chosen the wrong friends and have been trapped in circumstances they wouldn't have normally chosen for themselves?
I can tell you that there are people whose natures are pure darkness. They know what they do. They are aware and cunning. They have no guilt. And, they do not have any need, longing, or want for any sort of repentance for the things they have done. They are simply of this world, Angelica.
Mean people suck.

You are confusing the ego and the false self as being who someone is. The ego is the tip of the iceberg of who someone is. I fully realize the vast majority of people also identify with this 'false' self, and act from a place of this false self or ego, often with challenging results, and sometimes with disastrous results. And yet, the truth of the human being and the human Spirit, is mind-bogglingly stellar. Again, as people progress and open more and more to who they are--and this can be witnessed in people aging...even though such beauty and brilliance is overlooked and downgraded in our western world--as people open to who they are, they must acknowledge and let go of the wrongs, and atone or become at-one with their Truth in order to move beyond the ego. It's subtle to see, and unless one looks with eyes that are attuned to the process, it goes unnoticed, by our generally ego-blinded culture.