sin and forgiveness

catefrances

so...
if we are all born in and of sin because of adams fall, how come we have to seek forgiveness for something that is clearly within our nature?

Commy

because without religion it would be harder to control us.

catefrances

Commy wrote:

because without religion it would be harder to control us.

my da's answer last night when i asked him was: cate, it isnt suppose to make sense

angelica

There is a difference between our earth-based or ego nature, and our real nature, or spiritual nature.

To truly forgive ourselves or others, we recognize our true nature, or the true nature of others. Forgive means to give as in the fore...to give as we did before recognition of any wrong. Then we see ourselves clearly, in Truth. For many, they must seek this forgiveness from outside themselves, since they cannot recognize it within...they are too separate from the Truth within them.

Austicman

If Jesus died for our sins. Why do we need forgiveness?

know1

Commy wrote:

because without religion it would be harder to control us.

Speak for yourself....

digster

As far as I understand it, or as I've come to describe it, is that it's a part of human nature in the sense that we have it built into us, but we have the ability and willpower within us to withstand us as well, and must engage with that to help ourselves. Take adultery for example; as human beings, we are predisposed to fuck anything of the opposite, or sometimes the same, sex. It's a part of human nature. This makes us weak to the pull of adultery. Still, despite it being a part of human nature some semblance of morality (call it God, a higher power, our own conscience, etc. etc.) "tells" us that it's wrong, and we often have the willpower to withstand such temptation. I think the relationship between sin and withstanding it works in the same manner. It's a part of us, and will always be a part of us, and we have the strength to withstand it. But sometimes we don't always make it.

However, I learned a long time ago not to try to describe and define these kind of things through use of logic. Although I have faith, I tend not to try and describe it as something like a mathematical equation; "well, if this and this than why not that?" It's faith; the danger and uncertainty of belief is wrapped up in the very word.

DriftingByTheStorm

I still don't understand why God was the one lying,
and the serpernt the one telling the truth.

Byrnzie

catefrances wrote:

so...
if we are all born in and of sin because of adams fall, how come we have to seek forgiveness for something that is clearly within our nature?

We weren't, and we don't.

The Christian Church made up this nonsense. The first Christians - before any bible or Church was created - said nothing of the sort, and neither did Jesus. The Church is just a racket.

unifiedscene

catefrances wrote:

so...
if we are all born in and of sin because of adams fall, how come we have to seek forgiveness for something that is clearly within our nature?

god needs something to keep him entertained for eternity.

chopitdown

Byrnzie wrote:

We weren't, and we don't.

The Christian Church made up this nonsense. The first Christians - before any bible or Church was created - said nothing of the sort, and neither did Jesus. The Church is just a racket.

Romans 5 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
... For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so (grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Since Paul wrote Romans and many would consider him an early Christian, I'm gonna have to question where you get your "facts" from.

Sweet Emotion

You don't need to be forgiven for anything by anyone, especially by some group. Just be yourself. Enjoy life. Don't be a dick. Ok, you're good to go.

catefrances

Byrnzie wrote:

We weren't, and we don't.

The Christian Church made up this nonsense. The first Christians - before any bible or Church was created - said nothing of the sort, and neither did Jesus. The Church is just a racket.

you will note steve that the first words of my question were, so... if.

decides2dream

catefrances wrote:

so...
if we are all born in and of sin because of adams fall, how come we have to seek forgiveness for something that is clearly within our nature?

it is my understanding that 'original sin'...s in the sin we are born with, due to adam and eve's fall actually...is wiped away with baptism. given that most are baptized under the age of 6 months, i don't think anyone at that age is 'asking' for forgivness...it is more ritual of the chruch and family than anything else to wipe away said sin. just sayin'. just a lapsed catholic's recollection there.

catefrances

decides2dream wrote:

it is my understanding that 'original sin'...s in the sin we are born with, due to adam and eve's fall actually...is wiped away with baptism. given that most are baptized under the age of 6 months, i don't think anyone at that age is 'asking' for forgivness...it is more ritual of the chruch and family than anything else to wipe away said sin. just sayin'. just a lapsed catholic's recollection there.

and i repeat my question.

bless me father for i have sinned. it has been so fucking long since my last confession

decides2dream

catefrances wrote:

and i repeat my question.

bless me father for i have sinned. it has been so fucking long since my last confession

oh i see, now i get your point.


well, i guess the 'point' is while it may be in our nature....we still have the choice to ACT on our sins, and thus we ask forgiveness. kinda like how the church teaches they do not find fault or sin within one being homosexual, but sin exists in homosexual acts. (not my own thought of course)


btw - the actual idea is god created as perfect and without sin, and then we were tempted by satan and chose sin. so by design, it was not 'in our nature.'....but we were given free will. thus, as we are strive for godliness, when we do falter...we ask for forgiveness.

catefrances

decides2dream wrote:

...

btw - the actual idea is god created as perfect and without sin, and then we were tempted by satan and chose sin. so by design, it was not 'in our nature.'....but we were given free will. thus, as we are strive for godliness, when we do falter...we ask for forgiveness.

and i would agree with you(in theory of course ) if abel cain and seth et al.,were conceived before adam and eves fall. we are(in theory) the product of the fallen.

and i would even posit that just because adam and eve were the first of Gods creations, that doesnt mean they were the only. actaully what am i talking about anyways?... there was lilith before eve.

decides2dream

catefrances wrote:

and i would agree with you(in theory of course ) if abel cain and seth et al.,were conceived before adam and eves fall. we are(in theory) the product of the fallen.

yes we are...and yet we are all still born within the idea of free will. just b/c your father and mother may choose to sin, does not mean that you are destined to do so as well. and the idea that we can and do all sin, does not mean we cannot in mind and spirit to desire and strive to be better, to have humility before god, and to asdk for forgiveness. just b/c we are the product of the fallen does not mean we are without redemption and that is what every christian strives for, the grace and forgiveness of god. the idea of sin and forgiveness is one of the few i really don't take much issue or have many problems with. others...yea....:p

i don't thin i can ever be a full atheiest. i was brought up in too far a religious household, my parents i hold in too high a regard to ever truly disrespect/dismiss their views and faith....so i think i am forever destined to be agnostic. the ideas of faith, even if not embraced, are too far ingrained in me and my upbringing. i may not remember it all with perfect clariity...but sure...all the marbles still roll about in my head.



btw - as i said in my very first post...just b/c adam and eve chose sin, that 'orignal sin' is wiped away with baptism, you are then once again a 'clean slate'...without sin, not destined to be anything but yourself. so once again, completely free from sin and able to make your own choices of free will.

catefrances

decides2dream wrote:

yes we are...and yet we are all still born within the idea of free will. just b/c your father and mother may choose to sin, does not mean that you are destined to do so as well. and the idea that we can and do all sin, does not mean we cannot in mind and spirit to desire and strive to be better, to have humility before god, and to asdk for forgiveness. just b/c we are the product of the fallen does not mean we are without redemption and that is what every christian strives for, the grace and forgiveness of god. the idea of sin and forgiveness is one of the few i really don't take much issue or have many problems with. others...yea....:p

i don't thin i can ever be a full atheiest. i was brought up in too far a religious household, my parents i hold in too high a regard to ever truly disrespect/dismiss their views and faith....so i think i am forever destined to be agnostic. the ideas of faith, even if not embraced, are too far ingrained in me and my upbringing. i may not remember it all with perfect clariity...but sure...all the marbles still roll about in my head.



btw - as i said in my very first post...just b/c adam and eve chose sin, that 'orignal sin' is wiped away with baptism, you are then once again a 'clean slate'...without sin, not destined to be anything but yourself. so once again, completely free from sin and able to make your own choices of free will.

so thats my out then... if i was never baptised then my sin is still within my nature. you think thatll hold up in court?

decides2dream

catefrances wrote:

so thats my out then... if i was never baptised then my sin is still within my nature. you think thatll hold up in court?

what court?


besides, if you don't believe...what does it matter?



btw - i really don't know the whole story ther, but just b/c the 'original sin' was not wiped away, your free will is still intact, so just b/c that one sin exists within you, does not in and of itself, make the act of sinning 'winthin your nature' necessarily....so not exactly an 'excuse' for future sins. just sayin'. the idea is we are human and imperfect and fallible, but that we are to be strivbing for good, and thus try not to sin...and yes, it is our own choice, our own act of free will every time we sin, so sure...no 'excuses'...thus the asking for forgiveness and being repentant.


but again, if you don't believe...all kinda a moot point, no?

catefrances

decides2dream wrote:

what court?


besides, if you don't believe...what does it matter?



btw - i really don't know the whole story ther, but just b/c the 'original sin' was not wiped away, your free will is still intact, so just b/c that one sin exists within you, does not in and of itself, make the act of sinning 'winthin your nature' necessarily....so not exactly an 'excuse' for future sins. just sayin'. the idea is we are human and imperfect and fallible, but that we are to be strivbing for good, and thus try not to sin...and yes, it is our own choice, our own act of free will every time we sin, so sure...no 'excuses'...thus the asking for forgiveness and being repentant.


but again, if you don't believe...all kinda a moot point, no?

im speaking hypothetically. its not a personal 'i' i speak of.