sin and forgiveness

catefrances

so...
if we are all born in and of sin because of adams fall, how come we have to seek forgiveness for something that is clearly within our nature?

Commy

because without religion it would be harder to control us.

catefrances

Commy wrote:

because without religion it would be harder to control us.

my da's answer last night when i asked him was: cate, it isnt suppose to make sense

angelica

There is a difference between our earth-based or ego nature, and our real nature, or spiritual nature.

To truly forgive ourselves or others, we recognize our true nature, or the true nature of others. Forgive means to give as in the fore...to give as we did before recognition of any wrong. Then we see ourselves clearly, in Truth. For many, they must seek this forgiveness from outside themselves, since they cannot recognize it within...they are too separate from the Truth within them.

Austicman

If Jesus died for our sins. Why do we need forgiveness?

know1

Commy wrote:

because without religion it would be harder to control us.

Speak for yourself....

digster

As far as I understand it, or as I've come to describe it, is that it's a part of human nature in the sense that we have it built into us, but we have the ability and willpower within us to withstand us as well, and must engage with that to help ourselves. Take adultery for example; as human beings, we are predisposed to fuck anything of the opposite, or sometimes the same, sex. It's a part of human nature. This makes us weak to the pull of adultery. Still, despite it being a part of human nature some semblance of morality (call it God, a higher power, our own conscience, etc. etc.) "tells" us that it's wrong, and we often have the willpower to withstand such temptation. I think the relationship between sin and withstanding it works in the same manner. It's a part of us, and will always be a part of us, and we have the strength to withstand it. But sometimes we don't always make it.

However, I learned a long time ago not to try to describe and define these kind of things through use of logic. Although I have faith, I tend not to try and describe it as something like a mathematical equation; "well, if this and this than why not that?" It's faith; the danger and uncertainty of belief is wrapped up in the very word.

DriftingByTheStorm

I still don't understand why God was the one lying,
and the serpernt the one telling the truth.

Byrnzie

catefrances wrote:

so...
if we are all born in and of sin because of adams fall, how come we have to seek forgiveness for something that is clearly within our nature?

We weren't, and we don't.

The Christian Church made up this nonsense. The first Christians - before any bible or Church was created - said nothing of the sort, and neither did Jesus. The Church is just a racket.

unifiedscene

catefrances wrote:

so...
if we are all born in and of sin because of adams fall, how come we have to seek forgiveness for something that is clearly within our nature?

god needs something to keep him entertained for eternity.

chopitdown

Byrnzie wrote:

We weren't, and we don't.

The Christian Church made up this nonsense. The first Christians - before any bible or Church was created - said nothing of the sort, and neither did Jesus. The Church is just a racket.

Romans 5 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
... For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so (grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Since Paul wrote Romans and many would consider him an early Christian, I'm gonna have to question where you get your "facts" from.

Sweet Emotion

You don't need to be forgiven for anything by anyone, especially by some group. Just be yourself. Enjoy life. Don't be a dick. Ok, you're good to go.

catefrances

Byrnzie wrote:

We weren't, and we don't.

The Christian Church made up this nonsense. The first Christians - before any bible or Church was created - said nothing of the sort, and neither did Jesus. The Church is just a racket.

you will note steve that the first words of my question were, so... if.

decides2dream

catefrances wrote:

so...
if we are all born in and of sin because of adams fall, how come we have to seek forgiveness for something that is clearly within our nature?

it is my understanding that 'original sin'...s in the sin we are born with, due to adam and eve's fall actually...is wiped away with baptism. given that most are baptized under the age of 6 months, i don't think anyone at that age is 'asking' for forgivness...it is more ritual of the chruch and family than anything else to wipe away said sin. just sayin'. just a lapsed catholic's recollection there.

catefrances

decides2dream wrote:

it is my understanding that 'original sin'...s in the sin we are born with, due to adam and eve's fall actually...is wiped away with baptism. given that most are baptized under the age of 6 months, i don't think anyone at that age is 'asking' for forgivness...it is more ritual of the chruch and family than anything else to wipe away said sin. just sayin'. just a lapsed catholic's recollection there.

and i repeat my question.

bless me father for i have sinned. it has been so fucking long since my last confession

decides2dream

catefrances wrote:

and i repeat my question.

bless me father for i have sinned. it has been so fucking long since my last confession

oh i see, now i get your point.


well, i guess the 'point' is while it may be in our nature....we still have the choice to ACT on our sins, and thus we ask forgiveness. kinda like how the church teaches they do not find fault or sin within one being homosexual, but sin exists in homosexual acts. (not my own thought of course)


btw - the actual idea is god created as perfect and without sin, and then we were tempted by satan and chose sin. so by design, it was not 'in our nature.'....but we were given free will. thus, as we are strive for godliness, when we do falter...we ask for forgiveness.

catefrances

decides2dream wrote:

...

btw - the actual idea is god created as perfect and without sin, and then we were tempted by satan and chose sin. so by design, it was not 'in our nature.'....but we were given free will. thus, as we are strive for godliness, when we do falter...we ask for forgiveness.

and i would agree with you(in theory of course ) if abel cain and seth et al.,were conceived before adam and eves fall. we are(in theory) the product of the fallen.

and i would even posit that just because adam and eve were the first of Gods creations, that doesnt mean they were the only. actaully what am i talking about anyways?... there was lilith before eve.

decides2dream

catefrances wrote:

and i would agree with you(in theory of course ) if abel cain and seth et al.,were conceived before adam and eves fall. we are(in theory) the product of the fallen.

yes we are...and yet we are all still born within the idea of free will. just b/c your father and mother may choose to sin, does not mean that you are destined to do so as well. and the idea that we can and do all sin, does not mean we cannot in mind and spirit to desire and strive to be better, to have humility before god, and to asdk for forgiveness. just b/c we are the product of the fallen does not mean we are without redemption and that is what every christian strives for, the grace and forgiveness of god. the idea of sin and forgiveness is one of the few i really don't take much issue or have many problems with. others...yea....:p

i don't thin i can ever be a full atheiest. i was brought up in too far a religious household, my parents i hold in too high a regard to ever truly disrespect/dismiss their views and faith....so i think i am forever destined to be agnostic. the ideas of faith, even if not embraced, are too far ingrained in me and my upbringing. i may not remember it all with perfect clariity...but sure...all the marbles still roll about in my head.



btw - as i said in my very first post...just b/c adam and eve chose sin, that 'orignal sin' is wiped away with baptism, you are then once again a 'clean slate'...without sin, not destined to be anything but yourself. so once again, completely free from sin and able to make your own choices of free will.

catefrances

decides2dream wrote:

yes we are...and yet we are all still born within the idea of free will. just b/c your father and mother may choose to sin, does not mean that you are destined to do so as well. and the idea that we can and do all sin, does not mean we cannot in mind and spirit to desire and strive to be better, to have humility before god, and to asdk for forgiveness. just b/c we are the product of the fallen does not mean we are without redemption and that is what every christian strives for, the grace and forgiveness of god. the idea of sin and forgiveness is one of the few i really don't take much issue or have many problems with. others...yea....:p

i don't thin i can ever be a full atheiest. i was brought up in too far a religious household, my parents i hold in too high a regard to ever truly disrespect/dismiss their views and faith....so i think i am forever destined to be agnostic. the ideas of faith, even if not embraced, are too far ingrained in me and my upbringing. i may not remember it all with perfect clariity...but sure...all the marbles still roll about in my head.



btw - as i said in my very first post...just b/c adam and eve chose sin, that 'orignal sin' is wiped away with baptism, you are then once again a 'clean slate'...without sin, not destined to be anything but yourself. so once again, completely free from sin and able to make your own choices of free will.

so thats my out then... if i was never baptised then my sin is still within my nature. you think thatll hold up in court?

decides2dream

catefrances wrote:

so thats my out then... if i was never baptised then my sin is still within my nature. you think thatll hold up in court?

what court?


besides, if you don't believe...what does it matter?



btw - i really don't know the whole story ther, but just b/c the 'original sin' was not wiped away, your free will is still intact, so just b/c that one sin exists within you, does not in and of itself, make the act of sinning 'winthin your nature' necessarily....so not exactly an 'excuse' for future sins. just sayin'. the idea is we are human and imperfect and fallible, but that we are to be strivbing for good, and thus try not to sin...and yes, it is our own choice, our own act of free will every time we sin, so sure...no 'excuses'...thus the asking for forgiveness and being repentant.


but again, if you don't believe...all kinda a moot point, no?

catefrances

decides2dream wrote:

what court?


besides, if you don't believe...what does it matter?



btw - i really don't know the whole story ther, but just b/c the 'original sin' was not wiped away, your free will is still intact, so just b/c that one sin exists within you, does not in and of itself, make the act of sinning 'winthin your nature' necessarily....so not exactly an 'excuse' for future sins. just sayin'. the idea is we are human and imperfect and fallible, but that we are to be strivbing for good, and thus try not to sin...and yes, it is our own choice, our own act of free will every time we sin, so sure...no 'excuses'...thus the asking for forgiveness and being repentant.


but again, if you don't believe...all kinda a moot point, no?

im speaking hypothetically. its not a personal 'i' i speak of.

decides2dream

catefrances wrote:

im speaking hypothetically. its not a personal 'i' i speak of.

well i got THAT from your very first post.
however, even that hypothetical *I*...one would have to care to worry. and if they truly cared, they would go and get baptised. without belief, it's really pointless, no? even hypothetically. sure, can be interesting discussion...but beyond that, talking the 'practicalities' of the faith would require belief and desire for compliance of said beliefs. that was my only 'point'....and beyond that, god forgives all if all are truly repentant, or so it's said....so perhaps even that original sin too.


on that note...time to dream!

iamica

Original sin is the sinful human nature that came about from the Fall of mankind after Adam and Eve sinned. It is the separation of humanity from God. As a result, everyone sins.
Jesus' death and resurrection is the only way that God could make final, permanent atonement for anyone who believes in Jesus and makes him their Lord and Savior. It's like the sacrificial lambs that used to be slaughtered...a perfect, innocent being had to die so that everyone else's relationship with God could be restored. God sent his own son to do it.
Baptism does not wash away sin. Baptism, especially in the early Church, was an outward sign of repentance and the decision to accept Christ. Baptism does not guarantee salvation, it is supposed to be merely a symbol of a conscious decision that's already been made by the person being baptized.

Anon

iamica wrote:

Baptism does not guarantee salvation, it is supposed to be merely a symbol of a conscious decision that's already been made by the person being baptized.

Babies can't make conscious decisions though...

iamica

That's why baptism wasn't really meant to be done to infants. A lot of people think that if their baby is baptized, it means they'll go to heaven no matter what, but that's not what baptism means. It's supposed to be a symbol of a commitment to Christ made by the person being baptized. That's why a lot of churches don't do infant baptism; they do "baby dedications" instead where the parents commit to teaching their kids about God, and then the kid decides whether or not to get baptized when they're older.

OutOfBreath

iamica wrote:

It's like the sacrificial lambs that used to be slaughtered...a perfect, innocent being had to die so that everyone else's relationship with God could be restored.

I dont see how that even makes sense. If we sinners kill something perfect and say "here's to you, God", then everything is allright? then we should all go kill innocent children, only remember to dedicate them to God first, and he'll be mightily pleased...

I've been raised baptist, and gone a lot to sunday school and all. But the biblical (OT) god sounds more like a vengeful tyrant than creator of everything to me. I have an image of what God would/could be, and this ain't it at all. The OT god sounds like a regular king only +1 on authority and power.

Peace
Dan

Anon

iamica wrote:

That's why baptism wasn't really meant to be done to infants. A lot of people think that if their baby is baptized, it means they'll go to heaven no matter what, but that's not what baptism means. It's supposed to be a symbol of a commitment to Christ made by the person being baptized. That's why a lot of churches don't do infant baptism; they do "baby dedications" instead where the parents commit to teaching their kids about God, and then the kid decides whether or not to get baptized when they're older.

I can't speak for other churches, but catholics believe that Baptism washes away sin. They believe salvation is for babies too and don't think babies have to consciously choose Baptism in order to receive its grace.

...let the little children come to me..

decides2dream

Pj_Gurl wrote:

I can't speak for other churches, but catholics believe that Baptism washes away sin. They believe salvation is for babies too and don't think babies have to consciously choose Baptism in order to receive its grace.

...let the little children come to me..

exactly.
and to be clear, baptism washes away 'original sin'...that is it. so that babies are then completely pure, without sin....for now. baptism does NOT obsolve you from any future sins you may commit, just 'washes away' that orignal sin we are born with due to adam and eve. or so it is believed by those who follow said faith.


hmmmmmmmm.......reminds me of wash. although a bit more impure



Oh please let it rain today. This city's so filthy. Like my mind in ways.
Oh it was the time. Like a clean new taste.
Smiling eyes before me and tears from my face.

Wash my love. Wash my love. Wash my love, yeah.

Sin for sale. Buying just a need. O who planted all the devils seeds?
And what's the truth? And the truth that lies at home.
It's on the inside and I can't get it off. Yeah.

Wash my love. Wash my love. Wash my love, yeah.

What's clean is pure. But hey, I'm white on the outside. Though I stray.
What she don't know today might kill us both tomorrow. Bring it back someway.
Bring it back, back, back... to the clean form. To the pure form.

Wash my love. Wash my love. Wash my love. Wash my love.
Wash my love. Wash my love. Wash my love. Yeah
Wash my ...wash my...wash my love....yeaaaaaaahhhhhhh

saveuplife

catefrances wrote:

so...
if we are all born in and of sin because of adams fall, how come we have to seek forgiveness for something that is clearly within our nature?

There's a distinction between original sin and sin. The way I look at it is this...

Original sin gave us the power to choose right or wrong, good or bad, God or evil. It gave us free will. That's how I intrepret the story.

If we do something wrong (regular sin), given our free will, of course we should seek forgiveness for it. It is not good for our well being to sin. Nevertheless, we are prone to doing it. It is good for our well being to seek forgivness and grant foregiveness. That's why we "should" (do not have to) seek forgiveness when we sin.

iamica

OutOfBreath wrote:

I dont see how that even makes sense. If we sinners kill something perfect and say "here's to you, God", then everything is allright? then we should all go kill innocent children, only remember to dedicate them to God first, and he'll be mightily pleased...

I've been raised baptist, and gone a lot to sunday school and all. But the biblical (OT) god sounds more like a vengeful tyrant than creator of everything to me. I have an image of what God would/could be, and this ain't it at all. The OT god sounds like a regular king only +1 on authority and power.

Peace
Dan

In the Old Testament you see a lot of imagery regarding the serious consequences of sin. Basically, the consequence of sin is death. Immediately after Adam and Eve sinned, God killed an animal and clothed them with the animal's skin (this is pretty symbolic, by the way). The animal didn't do anything wrong, of course, Adam and Eve did. Just like Jesus didn't do anything wrong...we did. He willingly took our punishment for sin - death - on himself, opening the way to eternal life and a restored relationship with God. Animal sacrifices in the Old Testament were a precursor to Jesus' sacrifice in the New Testament, for the forgiveness of sins.
Edit: By the way, God never commanded people to sacrifice children to him (with the exception of Abraham and Isaac; God was testing Abraham). God actually, specifically told people NOT to sacrifice their children to him.

llamaranger

catefrances wrote:

so...
if we are all born in and of sin because of adams fall, how come we have to seek forgiveness for something that is clearly within our nature?

Well, I'm atheist so maybe I should really have just ignored this thread, but the way I see it, "original sin" is what makes us human.

The Devil (or, our natural inquisitive nature as I prefer to call him), taught Adam to say No. To stand up and make his own damned decisions about what fruit he was gonna eat, regardless of what the authorities (God) thought of it.

And in my opinion, the ability to say, or at least think, No, is what makes us human.

So thank Satan for that at least, if he exists, which is HIGHLY improbable.

Edd