okay...my opinion...the thing is I'm not overly attached to my view because it changes soooo much and so quickly. I may think differently next week....
If I find a view "too ridiculous" to contemplate, I have to open my mind up, or else I see myself as limiting my view. So I have to find a way to understand that view. I don't necessarily absorb the "ridiculous" idea into my view, itself. For me, if something sounds "ridiculous", it's because I've progressed past that type of thinking and I know it doesn't work for me...so there's little point it trying to do it again. But I will harmonize with it, and understand where that person is coming from. When I shut down and draw lines between myself or anyone, I personally see that I limit myself. I'm for expansion and growth.
I also own all my emotional responses...so if I don't tolerate something well, I keep that to myself--I own it and resolve that conflict within myself. I don't put that onto someone else by being deliberately repelling, or hostile, for the most part.
For example, I can't call someone's view "ridiculous" and put that label on them. If I find something "ridiculous" that's about me. And I know it gives people bad vibes if I project that outwards. They don't deserve to deal with my inner conflicts because of who they are or what they believe.
So, given I don't go by "ridiculous" views, but rather learn to understand them for that person, is that what you mean when you say it doesn't mean you don't appreciate reason for ridiculous views existing?
I think you and I might sometimes see things similarly, and yet communicate them differently.
no thats not what i meant. i meant i can understand WHY they find it necessary, i just cant understand how tis possible they hold this view. i have no desire to continue to try to understand WHAT it is they believe. not even for the sake of friendship.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
no thats not what i meant. i meant i can understand WHY they find it necessary, i just cant understand how tis possible they hold this view. i have no desire to continue to try to understand WHAT it is they believe. not even for the sake of friendship.
okay
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Even when people do what they "know" is wrong...they don't yet fully know it, imo, and are still involved in the learning process (by experience)... When they know better, they do better.
That's a real load of malarky. There are lots of people out there who are willing to rip you off, hold a knife to your face, break into your home, cheat on their spouses, skip out on paying child support....I can go on but it gets a bit boring putting that much energy into considering the limitless possibilities for human malevolence. There is a very real thing as willful evil.
That's a real load of malarky. There are lots of people out there who are willing to rip you off, hold a knife to your face, break into your home, cheat on their spouses, skip out on paying child support....I can go on but it gets a bit boring putting that much energy into considering the limitless possibilities for human malevolence. There is a very real thing as willful evil.
And they do these things because they have justified them somehow. They have given themselves entitlement. That is very different from realizing they are wrong. When people understand the error of their ways...they are seriously remorseful, and changed.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
That's a real load of malarky. There are lots of people out there who are willing to rip you off, hold a knife to your face, break into your home, cheat on their spouses, skip out on paying child support....I can go on but it gets a bit boring putting that much energy into considering the limitless possibilities for human malevolence. There is a very real thing as willful evil.
ok, so jumping in here (if it is ok; if not sorry; truly),
but there is willful evil and whether you are a Christian or not, you understand the difference between that and the choices made based on that. Very many people, people I know as well personally (sorry to admit), hold very different standards for themselves as well as others. Others are finely critiqued whereas they are allowed mistakes that are followed by weak excuses. So the point I am trying to make is that we can lie to ourselves so damn much that we are foggy on right and wrong. i.e., like maybe a thief would justify the stealing with the fact that they have nothing, life has been unfair to them, people who have things are all arrogant assholes, etc., and that stealing from them is somehow right.
So, yes, there is willful evil, and that to me is the priests who have molested little boys, young teens, etc. That to me, is insane to think they by any means at all could be unclear on their intentions, and if someone would like to think that the priests are sick, (so many of them?? maybe they should tweak the application process, perhaps??) then the men who covered up these crimes would be accountable. So that is also weak and bullshit.
I guess my point is I see both of the points here. Some people do better when they know better and some never ever do. We are all too complicated to place people under broad catagories.
Baby, You Wouldn't Last a Minute on The Creek......
Together we will float like angels.........
In the moment that you left the room, the album started skipping, goodbye to beauty shared with the ones that you love.........
And they do these things because they have justified them somehow. They have given themselves entitlement. That is very different from realizing they are wrong. When people understand the error of their ways...they are seriously remorseful, and changed.
Angelica, I have been to Maximum Security Prisons. I've been in hostile neighborhoods. I've been in some really shitty places with some really shitty people and I can tell you that there are a lot of them who know exactly what they are doing, what the results of their actions will lead to, and have absolutely no remorse for the damage they leave in the wakes of their abuses.
The world might one day be a beautiful utopian haven where people do make amends for their misdoings, where people do forgive and forget. Where a generosity of spirit is the principle that eliminates the judgement and prejudgement of others, and where human nature has evolved to benevolence,
and selflessness. Until then, to think otherwise can be really bad for your health and well being. Peace.
Angelica, I have been to Maximum Security Prisons. I've been in hostile neighborhoods. I've been in some really shitty places with some really shitty people and I can tell you that there are a lot of them who know exactly what they are doing, what the results of their actions will lead to, and have absolutely no remorse for the damage they leave in the wakes of their abuses.
We live in a society where people are trained to detach from and deny who they are deep inside. Therefore people intellectually know their wrongs, but do not know them. When people awaken from their emotional paralysis and from the illusions they labour under...they are met with the full accountability of their actions. When one faces that, they cannot go another step without repentance.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
We live in a society where people are trained to detach from and deny who they are deep inside. Therefore people intellectually know their wrongs, but do not know them. When people awaken from their emotional paralysis and from the illusions they labour under...they are met with the full accountability of their actions. When one faces that, they cannot go another step without repentance.
Who are they deep inside? Are they misunderstood, impoverished, tortured souls? Are they all good people who, because of some abuses in early childhood just need a prod in the right direction to get on the straight and narrow? Are they the victims of having chosen the wrong friends and have been trapped in circumstances they wouldn't have normally chosen for themselves?
I can tell you that there are people whose natures are pure darkness. They know what they do. They are aware and cunning. They have no guilt. And, they do not have any need, longing, or want for any sort of repentance for the things they have done. They are simply of this world, Angelica.
Mean people suck.
Who are they deep inside? Are they misunderstood, impoverished, tortured souls? Are they all good people who, because of some abuses in early childhood just need a prod in the right direction to get on the straight and narrow? Are they the victims of having chosen the wrong friends and have been trapped in circumstances they wouldn't have normally chosen for themselves?
I can tell you that there are people whose natures are pure darkness. They know what they do. They are aware and cunning. They have no guilt. And, they do not have any need, longing, or want for any sort of repentance for the things they have done. They are simply of this world, Angelica.
Mean people suck.
You are confusing the ego and the false self as being who someone is. The ego is the tip of the iceberg of who someone is. I fully realize the vast majority of people also identify with this 'false' self, and act from a place of this false self or ego, often with challenging results, and sometimes with disastrous results. And yet, the truth of the human being and the human Spirit, is mind-bogglingly stellar. Again, as people progress and open more and more to who they are--and this can be witnessed in people aging...even though such beauty and brilliance is overlooked and downgraded in our western world--as people open to who they are, they must acknowledge and let go of the wrongs, and atone or become at-one with their Truth in order to move beyond the ego. It's subtle to see, and unless one looks with eyes that are attuned to the process, it goes unnoticed, by our generally ego-blinded culture.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
You are confusing the ego and the false self as being who someone is. The ego is the tip of the iceberg of who someone is. I fully realize the vast majority of people also identify with this 'false' self, and act from a place of this false self or ego, often with challenging results, and sometimes with disastrous results. And yet, the truth of the human being and the human Spirit, is mind-bogglingly stellar. Again, as people progress and open more and more to who they are--and this can be witnessed in people aging...even though such beauty and brilliance is overlooked and downgraded in our western world--as people open to who they are, they must acknowledge and let go of the wrongs, and atone or become at-one with their Truth in order to move beyond the ego. It's subtle to see, and unless one looks with eyes that are attuned to the process, it goes unnoticed, by our generally ego-blinded culture.
I'm not confusing anything. And I can tell you that I have read more Nietzsche than anyone you know. I am not only well aware of my ego and ego based thinking- which, by the way is where people reside. Beyond the id and on this plane far beneath the super ego. But I am also keenly aware of my surroundings and of the fact that one day some asshole is going to try to steal my savings from me because I'll be an old fucker. They won't get it though, you know why? Because I've got my feet firmly planted here on planet earth where there are shitty people everywhere doing their shitty people stuff. And when they roll the end credits on your life you'll see this hasn't been a Disney production.
I'm not confusing anything. And I can tell you that I have read more Nietzsche than anyone you know. I am not only well aware of my ego and ego based thinking- which, by the way is where people reside. Beyond the id and on this plane far beneath the super ego. But I am also keenly aware of my surroundings and of the fact that one day some asshole is going to try to steal my savings from me because I'll be an old fucker. They won't get it though, you know why? Because I've got my feet firmly planted here on planet earth where there are shitty people everywhere doing their shitty people stuff. And when they roll the end credits on your life you'll see this hasn't been a Disney production.
You're right, it's not a Disney production. I'm speaking in the context of this thread, and in the context of forgiveness, and it's purpose. Humans seek connection with their Truth beyond the ugliness, sometimes/often through the vehicle of forgiveness.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
You're right, it's not a Disney production. I'm speaking in the context of this thread, and in the context of forgiveness, and it's purpose. Humans seek connection with their Truth beyond the ugliness, sometimes/often through the vehicle of forgiveness.
You had been speaking of sin and repentance, not of forgiveness.
But that's ok. I won't hold it against you..
You had been speaking of sin and repentance, not of forgiveness.
But that's ok. I won't hold it against you..
You may have overlooked the original context I spoke of in this thread, that Abu responded to, and that I responded back to him...whereupon you challenged what I said. It's all part of one context. You may have removed it from that context, and yet it doesn't change what I've said, and intended.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
You may have overlooked the original context I spoke of in this thread, that Abu responded to, and that I responded back to him...whereupon you challenged what I said. It's all part of one context. You may have removed it from that context, and yet it doesn't change what I've said, and intended.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abuskedti
No. What I mean is, whenever someone chooses to do something, they believe, all things considered, that it is the right thing to do.
Noone ever does anything they know is wrong. Now all things are surely completed.. and they may know there is some wrong, but in sum - all the good and bad totalled in every action - adds up on the good side, or they would not have done it.
in hindsight, they may realize they were looking at it wrong... but nobody ever does anything they think is wrong in sum.. or they wouldn't do it.
that is what I believe.
I totally agree with you about this.
Even when people do what they "know" is wrong...they don't yet fully know it, imo, and are still involved in the learning process (by experience)... When they know better, they do better."
This is the exact context of the posting. There is nothing about forgiveness here. It is a very naive train of thought to believe that people, knowingly, will act only out of good. You agreed with that idea and I tell you it isn't so.
That has been very simply stated through out.
I wish you well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abuskedti
No. What I mean is, whenever someone chooses to do something, they believe, all things considered, that it is the right thing to do.
Noone ever does anything they know is wrong. Now all things are surely completed.. and they may know there is some wrong, but in sum - all the good and bad totalled in every action - adds up on the good side, or they would not have done it.
in hindsight, they may realize they were looking at it wrong... but nobody ever does anything they think is wrong in sum.. or they wouldn't do it.
that is what I believe.
I totally agree with you about this.
Even when people do what they "know" is wrong...they don't yet fully know it, imo, and are still involved in the learning process (by experience)... When they know better, they do better."
This is the exact context of the posting. There is nothing about forgiveness here. It is a very naive train of thought to believe that people, knowingly, will act only out of good. You agreed with that idea and I tell you it isn't so.
That has been very simply stated through out.
I wish you well.
Okay...thanks for telling me my context and intent............................:)
When you're willing to hear me, you will, and not a moment sooner.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Okay...thanks for telling me my context and intent............................:)
When you're willing to hear me, you will, and not a moment sooner.
I'm not telling you anything. I'm quoting you, and pointing out for you, with exactitude, the conversation. We did not deviate from that line of conversation until you said you had been talking about something that you were not talking about.
If you want to continue, I'm all ears. If not, I'm all smiles. Cheers.
I'm not telling you anything. I'm quoting you, and pointing out for you, with exactitude, the conversation. We did not deviate from that line of conversation until you said you had been talking about something that you were not talking about.
If you want to continue, I'm all ears. If not, I'm all smiles. Cheers.
When you're pointing out with "exactitude", you continue to overlook my first post in this thread, which abu responded to, which came prior in the whole sequence, to where you decided to make my "exact" context start.
Regardless of what I tell you of my intent and what it's about.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
And they do these things because they have justified them somehow. They have given themselves entitlement. That is very different from realizing they are wrong. When people understand the error of their ways...they are seriously remorseful, and changed.
i agree angelica. people who do do bad things justify it to themselves. however i dont believe for a second that once theyve understood the error of their ways they are remorseful, seriously or otherwise. sure some will be, but not all.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Comments
no thats not what i meant. i meant i can understand WHY they find it necessary, i just cant understand how tis possible they hold this view. i have no desire to continue to try to understand WHAT it is they believe. not even for the sake of friendship.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
That's a real load of malarky. There are lots of people out there who are willing to rip you off, hold a knife to your face, break into your home, cheat on their spouses, skip out on paying child support....I can go on but it gets a bit boring putting that much energy into considering the limitless possibilities for human malevolence. There is a very real thing as willful evil.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
ok, so jumping in here (if it is ok; if not sorry; truly),
but there is willful evil and whether you are a Christian or not, you understand the difference between that and the choices made based on that. Very many people, people I know as well personally (sorry to admit), hold very different standards for themselves as well as others. Others are finely critiqued whereas they are allowed mistakes that are followed by weak excuses. So the point I am trying to make is that we can lie to ourselves so damn much that we are foggy on right and wrong. i.e., like maybe a thief would justify the stealing with the fact that they have nothing, life has been unfair to them, people who have things are all arrogant assholes, etc., and that stealing from them is somehow right.
So, yes, there is willful evil, and that to me is the priests who have molested little boys, young teens, etc. That to me, is insane to think they by any means at all could be unclear on their intentions, and if someone would like to think that the priests are sick, (so many of them?? maybe they should tweak the application process, perhaps??) then the men who covered up these crimes would be accountable. So that is also weak and bullshit.
I guess my point is I see both of the points here. Some people do better when they know better and some never ever do. We are all too complicated to place people under broad catagories.
Together we will float like angels.........
In the moment that you left the room, the album started skipping, goodbye to beauty shared with the ones that you love.........
Angelica, I have been to Maximum Security Prisons. I've been in hostile neighborhoods. I've been in some really shitty places with some really shitty people and I can tell you that there are a lot of them who know exactly what they are doing, what the results of their actions will lead to, and have absolutely no remorse for the damage they leave in the wakes of their abuses.
The world might one day be a beautiful utopian haven where people do make amends for their misdoings, where people do forgive and forget. Where a generosity of spirit is the principle that eliminates the judgement and prejudgement of others, and where human nature has evolved to benevolence,
and selflessness. Until then, to think otherwise can be really bad for your health and well being. Peace.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Who are they deep inside? Are they misunderstood, impoverished, tortured souls? Are they all good people who, because of some abuses in early childhood just need a prod in the right direction to get on the straight and narrow? Are they the victims of having chosen the wrong friends and have been trapped in circumstances they wouldn't have normally chosen for themselves?
I can tell you that there are people whose natures are pure darkness. They know what they do. They are aware and cunning. They have no guilt. And, they do not have any need, longing, or want for any sort of repentance for the things they have done. They are simply of this world, Angelica.
Mean people suck.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I'm not confusing anything. And I can tell you that I have read more Nietzsche than anyone you know. I am not only well aware of my ego and ego based thinking- which, by the way is where people reside. Beyond the id and on this plane far beneath the super ego. But I am also keenly aware of my surroundings and of the fact that one day some asshole is going to try to steal my savings from me because I'll be an old fucker. They won't get it though, you know why? Because I've got my feet firmly planted here on planet earth where there are shitty people everywhere doing their shitty people stuff. And when they roll the end credits on your life you'll see this hasn't been a Disney production.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
You had been speaking of sin and repentance, not of forgiveness.
But that's ok. I won't hold it against you..
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abuskedti
No. What I mean is, whenever someone chooses to do something, they believe, all things considered, that it is the right thing to do.
Noone ever does anything they know is wrong. Now all things are surely completed.. and they may know there is some wrong, but in sum - all the good and bad totalled in every action - adds up on the good side, or they would not have done it.
in hindsight, they may realize they were looking at it wrong... but nobody ever does anything they think is wrong in sum.. or they wouldn't do it.
that is what I believe.
I totally agree with you about this.
Even when people do what they "know" is wrong...they don't yet fully know it, imo, and are still involved in the learning process (by experience)... When they know better, they do better."
This is the exact context of the posting. There is nothing about forgiveness here. It is a very naive train of thought to believe that people, knowingly, will act only out of good. You agreed with that idea and I tell you it isn't so.
That has been very simply stated through out.
I wish you well.
When you're willing to hear me, you will, and not a moment sooner.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I'm not telling you anything. I'm quoting you, and pointing out for you, with exactitude, the conversation. We did not deviate from that line of conversation until you said you had been talking about something that you were not talking about.
If you want to continue, I'm all ears. If not, I'm all smiles. Cheers.
Regardless of what I tell you of my intent and what it's about.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
i agree angelica. people who do do bad things justify it to themselves. however i dont believe for a second that once theyve understood the error of their ways they are remorseful, seriously or otherwise. sure some will be, but not all.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say