There is a difference between our earth-based or ego nature, and our real nature, or spiritual nature.
To truly forgive ourselves or others, we recognize our true nature, or the true nature of others. Forgive means to give as in the fore...to give as we did before recognition of any wrong. Then we see ourselves clearly, in Truth. For many, they must seek this forgiveness from outside themselves, since they cannot recognize it within...they are too separate from the Truth within them.
Sooooooo what about things commited after recognition of the wrong? Or do you believe, as I do, that virtually nobody does that.
do you mean knowing what you are doing is wrong but doing it anyway. and then admitting what youve done and acknowledging it as a wrong action?
No. What I mean is, whenever someone chooses to do something, they believe, all things considered, that it is the right thing to do.
Noone ever does anything they know is wrong. Now all things are surely completed.. and they may know there is some wrong, but in sum - all the good and bad totalled in every action - adds up on the good side, or they would not have done it.
in hindsight, they may realize they were looking at it wrong... but nobody ever does anything they think is wrong in sum.. or they wouldn't do it.
No. What I mean is, whenever someone chooses to do something, they believe, all things considered, that it is the right thing to do.
Noone ever does anything they know is wrong. Now all things are surely completed.. and they may know there is some wrong, but in sum - all the good and bad totalled in every action - adds up on the good side, or they would not have done it.
in hindsight, they may realize they were looking at it wrong... but nobody ever does anything they think is wrong in sum.. or they wouldn't do it.
that is what I believe.
hmm......... interesting.
i have to admit there are some times when i do things that i know are wrong. but i do them anyway because i need them. i am thinking only of my survival. however, that does not mean it doesnt come back and bite me in the arse. it is a selfish act i admit that. but for me my truth is at the time, i needed to do what i did.
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bless me father for i have sinned. it has been so fucking long since my last confession
you only go to confession when you've sinned... if you're a practising catholic... although some of us believe that we don't need to talk to god via a priest
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
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Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
No. What I mean is, whenever someone chooses to do something, they believe, all things considered, that it is the right thing to do.
Noone ever does anything they know is wrong. Now all things are surely completed.. and they may know there is some wrong, but in sum - all the good and bad totalled in every action - adds up on the good side, or they would not have done it.
in hindsight, they may realize they were looking at it wrong... but nobody ever does anything they think is wrong in sum.. or they wouldn't do it.
that is what I believe.
My friend, that is horribly naive. There are people out there of every stripe that are willing and able to deceive others all day long for one form of gain or another. Lawyers and used car salesmen for example. Politicians, as well.
No. What I mean is, whenever someone chooses to do something, they believe, all things considered, that it is the right thing to do.
Noone ever does anything they know is wrong. Now all things are surely completed.. and they may know there is some wrong, but in sum - all the good and bad totalled in every action - adds up on the good side, or they would not have done it.
in hindsight, they may realize they were looking at it wrong... but nobody ever does anything they think is wrong in sum.. or they wouldn't do it.
that is what I believe.
Sorry, that's just stone cold crazy.
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For those that have seen Zeitgeist or just know this in general, how does the connection between Paganism and Christianity tie into the esoteric agenda and 911 conspiracies?
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No. What I mean is, whenever someone chooses to do something, they believe, all things considered, that it is the right thing to do.
Noone ever does anything they know is wrong. Now all things are surely completed.. and they may know there is some wrong, but in sum - all the good and bad totalled in every action - adds up on the good side, or they would not have done it.
in hindsight, they may realize they were looking at it wrong... but nobody ever does anything they think is wrong in sum.. or they wouldn't do it.
that is what I believe.
...
"I remember one night at Muzdalifa with nothing but the sky overhead, I lay awake amid sleeping Muslim brothers and I learned that pilgrims from every land — every colour, and class, and rank; high officials and the beggar alike — all snored in the same language"
In all due respect, if you get your perceptions of people of faith through a caller on the DR. Laura, show, it says alot.
The view that I was illustrating does not stray far from that of most conservative religious individuals. Morality to them is defined by the bible and nothing else. If you think morality exists outside of whatever religious text you have subscribed to, then you are not religious.
The view that I was illustrating does not stray far from that of most conservative religious individuals. Morality to them is defined by the bible and nothing else. If you think morality exists outside of whatever religious text you have subscribed to, then you are not religious.
You paint with a very broad brush and gather your data from carefully selected sources, or no sources at all.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
My thought: God gave us sin to make us humble. We need to sin and have disappoint to grow and learn. Without it, we could never be like him and return to is presence.
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You paint with a very broad brush and gather your data from carefully selected sources, or no sources at all.
Instead of pretending that I base my views on a single radio talk show phone call, try taking a stab at the actual point that I'm at least trying to make. That way you don't look like you're just trying to damage my credibility like some attorney in a courtroom.
so...
if we are all born in and of sin because of adams fall, how come we have to seek forgiveness for something that is clearly within our nature?
ok, here is what I think......
I think we are who what God made us into because that is whom He wanted us to become. He (from what I have been taught from Scripture; don't know if I interpreted it right or not, so be patient with me, please) knew before Adam sinned that he would do so and He also knew we would fight with the eternal urge to please our own carnal nature and go against what we know we should do because in our souls, we are made in His image and that is the part that is pure in all of us.
What makes me sad though, and I don't understand why He had to do this if God knew this would happen, is why Jesus had to go through so much pain and why this could not happen; this redemption ; in a less violent less painful way.
any help on this? I always get sad thinking of this............
and I once heard this man say, in a lecture that was not at all to sell any belief in terms of faith and religion to anyone, "Do good because it is good to do, not because of the promise of heaven or the threat of hell".
Baby, You Wouldn't Last a Minute on The Creek......
Together we will float like angels.........
In the moment that you left the room, the album started skipping, goodbye to beauty shared with the ones that you love.........
My thought: God gave us sin to make us humble. We need to sin and have disappoint to grow and learn. Without it, we could never be like him and return to is presence.
i dont need to sin to be humble. but my question is why do we need to humble ourselves? and to whom?
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What makes me sad though, and I don't understand why He had to do this if God knew this would happen, is why Jesus had to go through so much pain and why this could not happen; this redemption ; in a less violent less painful way.
...because without the phrase, "He died for our sins," the popularity of Jesus would never have gained so much ground. Point in fact is that the most common visual depiction of Jesus involves the image of his being crucified.
That is, for many people who follow christian ideology, the suffering of Jesus attests to his sincere concern for mankind. It is an establishment of credibility on his part.
For those that have seen Zeitgeist or just know this in general, how does the connection between Paganism and Christianity tie into the esoteric agenda and 911 conspiracies?
great question.
Considering Zeitgeist claims Christianity is basically a ripoff of Paganism, that Christianity is using Paganism for its own ends...
What makes me sad though, and I don't understand why He had to do this if God knew this would happen, is why Jesus had to go through so much pain and why this could not happen; this redemption ; in a less violent less painful way.
any help on this? I always get sad thinking of this............
".
My thoughts about it are this:
Jesus had to suffer. He had to experience everything humans experience. The anger in the temple, the ultimate betrayal with a kiss, temptation, feelings of being God forsaken, and yes, actual physical pain. To me, a savior who never experienced these things would be completely useless. i would want nothing to do with a savior who never experienced the things i do. To me, THATS why the suffering of Christ was necessary. To me, its a bittersweet thing to think of. Its sad, yes, but in a very comforting way.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
I remember a while back I was listening to Dr. Laura, who is an ultra-conservative god-pushing version of Dr. Phil.
So, this caller calls in and starts to talk about the urge to commit adultery, and how he refrains because it's wrong per the bible. But, he added that he still wants to commits adultery--hence the phone call.
So, Dr. Laura goes, "Tell me why adultery is wrong."
The caller goes, "Because the bible says it's wrong."
Dr. Laura says, "But, give me the secular reason. Other than what the bible says, why is adultery wrong?"
The caller responds, "Ugghh, hmmmm."
This caller seriously couldn't figure out what was wrong with adultery other than that it defies the word of god.
Obviously, adultery violates the trust that one's partner has so heavily invested into the marriage. If children are involved, adultery risks the dissolution of the family unit, which can have serious emotional consequences on impressionable victims.
But, I think for many people in this world, that kind of intuitive grasp on the difference between right and wrong is far beyond their capabilities. So, they turn to religion to explain to them why society is the way it is -- because god says it's that way.
OK, 2 things.
first, Belief is the end of thought. Those who believe stop thinking critically.
And, second, the caller felt he was in friendly territory talking to that quack, because his explanation for the decision to not commit adultery involved the invocation of g-o-d. Surely, the good doctor would sing his praises and he could go on not thinking forever more. He only wanted to be appreciated for his confession of faith not his confession.
(It's got nothing to do with pointing a finger at the moon.)
...because without the phrase, "He died for our sins," the popularity of Jesus would never have gained so much ground. Point in fact is that the most common visual depiction of Jesus involves the image of his being crucified.
That is, for many people who follow christian ideology, the suffering of Jesus attests to his sincere concern for mankind. It is an establishment of credibility on his part.
Question: "Why did Jesus have to experience so much suffering?"
Answer: Isaiah 52:14 declares, “Just as there were many who were appalled at Him — His appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness.” Jesus suffered most severely throughout the trials, torture, and crucifixion (Matthew chapter 27, Mark chapter 15, Luke chapter 23, John chapter 19). As horrible as His physical suffering was, it was nothing compared to the spiritual suffering He went through. 2 Corinthians 5:21, "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." Jesus had the weight of the sins of the entire world on Him (1 John 2:2). It was sin that caused Jesus to cry out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46). So, as brutal as Jesus' physical suffering was, it was nothing compared to His having to bear our sins - and die for our sins (Romans 5:8).
Isaiah chapter 53, verses 3 and 5 especially predict Jesus’ suffering, “He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.” Psalm 22:14-18 is another powerful passage predicting the suffering of the Messiah, “I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted away within me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death. Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.”
Why did Jesus have to suffer so badly? Some think that Jesus' physical torture was part of His being punished for our sins, in our place. To some extent, this is likely the case. At the same time, the torture Jesus underwent speaks more of the hatred and cruelty of humanity than it does of God's punishment for sin. Satan's absolute hatred of God and Jesus was surely a part of the motivation behind the relentless torture and abuse. Jesus' suffering is the ultimate example of how sinful man feels toward a holy God (Romans 3:10-18).
I just got this off of a search; found it interesting........
But I also think that the reason for sin and forgiveness lies in personal conviction. When I first began to search on my own, as an adult, there were definite big things that I felt God wanted me to change but then after those things were accomplished (by much pain, difficulty, and help from Him), then there were things that I felt I should also change.
I will say though, after a lot of faith searching, a lot of desperation, and a lot of uncomfortable as well as painful things I went through, that a lot of the things we are so judgemental about are so off of His mark. In other words, we are a lot more arrogant and rule making than He would be. I try not to do that........I am no one to say I am forgiven and someone else isn't. But I also think,like in the cases of priests abusing alter boys, little boys in general, that they KNOW the sin they are committing; that makes them MORE guilty.
you know?
Baby, You Wouldn't Last a Minute on The Creek......
Together we will float like angels.........
In the moment that you left the room, the album started skipping, goodbye to beauty shared with the ones that you love.........
Original sin! What a hellish idea that is!
People have to go, "Father, bless me for I have sinned, I did an original sin… I poked a badger with a spoon."
"I've never heard of that one before! Five Hail Mary's and two Hello, Dolly's."
"Oh, all right..."
"Bless me, Father, for I have slept with my next door neighbor's wife."
"Heard it! I want an original sin."
"Oh, I'm terribly sorry!"
The Anglican faith doesn't have that. You'll never go,
"Vicar, I have done many bad things."
"Well, so have I."
"What shall I do?"
"Well, drink five Bloody Marys and you won't remember."
Cymru Am Byth
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Original sin! What a hellish idea that is!
People have to go, "Father, bless me for I have sinned, I did an original sin… I poked a badger with a spoon."
"I've never heard of that one before! Five Hail Mary's and two Hello, Dolly's."
"Oh, all right..."
"Bless me, Father, for I have slept with my next door neighbor's wife."
"Heard it! I want an original sin."
"Oh, I'm terribly sorry!"
The Anglican faith doesn't have that. You'll never go,
"Vicar, I have done many bad things."
"Well, so have I."
"What shall I do?"
"Well, drink five Bloody Marys and you won't remember."
lmao!!!
almost makes me wanna become anglican.... almost.
oh and i dont think poking a badger is a sin.
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Jesus had to suffer. He had to experience everything humans experience. The anger in the temple, the ultimate betrayal with a kiss, temptation, feelings of being God forsaken, and yes, actual physical pain. To me, a savior who never experienced these things would be completely useless. i would want nothing to do with a savior who never experienced the things i do. To me, THATS why the suffering of Christ was necessary. To me, its a bittersweet thing to think of. Its sad, yes, but in a very comforting way.
Glad to meet another believer here.......
I understand the comfort in knowing that when I have problems in my life that He also had pain, in physical but also perplexing ways, as we all do. I can then think, "He was the son of God and look all he endured, even in a perfect form of human being as He was. I can handle this and ask for His comfort."
And I may have said this before but there have been three times in my life when all I had tried did not help my situations and I have a cross in my room that has a purple robe laying across it to symbolize the reserrection and I have leaned down, forehead to the floor and asked for His help. I can say that in all three, He has heard as well as answered these prayers.
I do not do this lightly; He knows my heart so why lie, but when I am truly in pain, He understands and not in my own way, but His, He responds.
Baby, You Wouldn't Last a Minute on The Creek......
Together we will float like angels.........
In the moment that you left the room, the album started skipping, goodbye to beauty shared with the ones that you love.........
No. What I mean is, whenever someone chooses to do something, they believe, all things considered, that it is the right thing to do.
Noone ever does anything they know is wrong. Now all things are surely completed.. and they may know there is some wrong, but in sum - all the good and bad totalled in every action - adds up on the good side, or they would not have done it.
in hindsight, they may realize they were looking at it wrong... but nobody ever does anything they think is wrong in sum.. or they wouldn't do it.
that is what I believe.
I totally agree with you about this.
Even when people do what they "know" is wrong...they don't yet fully know it, imo, and are still involved in the learning process (by experience)... When they know better, they do better.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
you didnt answer my questions. maybe you find me antagonistic and am just goading you into a confrontation. it wouldnt surprise me. but its not what i am doing. well... maybe just a little. i ask the questions i do in order to understand.
Sorry I haven't responded! I haven't been in this thread lately!
I can't really answer specific questions on these subjects because the answer would only be about my personal opinion, which is on par with anyone else's.. It's like talking about the finger that points at the moon...kind of a moot point for me. When I talk about being ego-centred, on the other hand, that's more about the general parameters of the ego and being centred in it, as per certain established schools of thought.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Sooooooo what about things commited after recognition of the wrong? Or do you believe, as I do, that virtually nobody does that.
I agree with you. We truly are as innocent children...all of us...all the time. All the other stuff,...that's about the unhealthy shame/blame and unhealthy guilt that our flawed caregivers taught us, coming from their own place of error. We keep perpetuating it as though it's real. And it's not, except in our belief of it.
Therefore the true forgiveness is merely recognizing the truth. Many, many of us are not even remotely ready for this....We are always perfect in God's eyes. We are One with God. And God always knows this, coming from that place of pure awareness. Also, since God comes from a place beyond time...where separation and distance does not exist...God doesn't care if we wake up today, or a million years from now. The separation from this perfection stems from our egos and is in our experience alone...
When we go to the Light...God doesn't judge us...Instead, we see our faulty ego-selves in the Light of Truth, and we see our flaws clearly, for what they are. As long as we hold up separation, we cannot be "home", at-One. When we truly see the error of our ways, we feel deep sorrow, and feel the urge to come together with our truth. To bridge the sense of separation.
great points, btw, Abu!
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Sorry I haven't responded! I haven't been in this thread lately!
I can't really answer specific questions on these subjects because the answer would only be about my personal opinion, which is on par with anyone else's.. It's like talking about the finger that points at the moon...kind of a moot point for me. When I talk about being ego-centred, on the other hand, that's more about the general parameters of the ego and being centred in it, as per certain established schools of thought.
oh pish posh im past that now. im evolving.
and good god angelica its your opinion i want. otherwise what the hell is all this if not our individual opinions.
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you say there is nothing wrong with being ego centred, but you say we remain so because we are intolerant of views we dont appreciate. why must we be tolerant of views we have already assessed and deemed, as ive said before, as being too ridiculous for us to contemplate them being absorbed into our views? why must i tolerate views i clearly see as being nonsensical when i clearly understand the WHY but see no value in the WHAT that they are? just because i am intolerant of a view doesnt mean i dont appreciate its reason for existing.
okay...my opinion...the thing is I'm not overly attached to my view because it changes soooo much and so quickly. I may think differently next week....
If I find a view "too ridiculous" to contemplate, I have to open my mind up, or else I see myself as limiting my view. So I have to find a way to understand that view. I don't necessarily absorb the "ridiculous" idea into my view, itself. For me, if something sounds "ridiculous", it's because I've progressed past that type of thinking and I know it doesn't work for me...so there's little point it trying to do it again. But I will harmonize with it, and understand where that person is coming from. When I shut down and draw lines between myself or anyone, I personally see that I limit myself. I'm for expansion and growth.
I also own all my emotional responses...so if I don't tolerate something well, I keep that to myself--I own it and resolve that conflict within myself. I don't put that onto someone else by being deliberately repelling, or hostile, for the most part.
For example, I can't call someone's view "ridiculous" and put that label on them. If I find something "ridiculous" that's about me. And I know it gives people bad vibes if I project that outwards. They don't deserve to deal with my inner conflicts because of who they are or what they believe.
So, given I don't go by "ridiculous" views, but rather learn to understand them for that person, is that what you mean when you say it doesn't mean you don't appreciate reason for ridiculous views existing?
I think you and I might sometimes see things similarly, and yet communicate them differently.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
and good god angelica its your opinion i want. otherwise what the hell is all this if not our individual opinions.
To me, for the most part it's about the subject matter. Identifying with my personal opinion ultimately causes me pain. And identifying with a larger Truth brings me increasing peace, harmony and freedom.
Which is why people eventually evolve past their ego-centredness...to be able to live contentedly. In this life or beyond. If I see myself as the deep calm of the ocean, the ripples on the surface are mere entertainment.
At the same time, it's fair game asking for an opinion.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Comments
Sooooooo what about things commited after recognition of the wrong? Or do you believe, as I do, that virtually nobody does that.
do you mean knowing what you are doing is wrong but doing it anyway. and then admitting what youve done and acknowledging it as a wrong action?
take a good look
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i just need to say
No. What I mean is, whenever someone chooses to do something, they believe, all things considered, that it is the right thing to do.
Noone ever does anything they know is wrong. Now all things are surely completed.. and they may know there is some wrong, but in sum - all the good and bad totalled in every action - adds up on the good side, or they would not have done it.
in hindsight, they may realize they were looking at it wrong... but nobody ever does anything they think is wrong in sum.. or they wouldn't do it.
that is what I believe.
hmm......... interesting.
i have to admit there are some times when i do things that i know are wrong. but i do them anyway because i need them. i am thinking only of my survival. however, that does not mean it doesnt come back and bite me in the arse. it is a selfish act i admit that. but for me my truth is at the time, i needed to do what i did.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
My friend, that is horribly naive. There are people out there of every stripe that are willing and able to deceive others all day long for one form of gain or another. Lawyers and used car salesmen for example. Politicians, as well.
Sorry, that's just stone cold crazy.
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Utter Bollocks!! People do wrong all the time. knowing it is wrong when their doing it.
The view that I was illustrating does not stray far from that of most conservative religious individuals. Morality to them is defined by the bible and nothing else. If you think morality exists outside of whatever religious text you have subscribed to, then you are not religious.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
You paint with a very broad brush and gather your data from carefully selected sources, or no sources at all.
I thought the world...Turns out the world thought me
Instead of pretending that I base my views on a single radio talk show phone call, try taking a stab at the actual point that I'm at least trying to make. That way you don't look like you're just trying to damage my credibility like some attorney in a courtroom.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
ok, here is what I think......
I think we are who what God made us into because that is whom He wanted us to become. He (from what I have been taught from Scripture; don't know if I interpreted it right or not, so be patient with me, please) knew before Adam sinned that he would do so and He also knew we would fight with the eternal urge to please our own carnal nature and go against what we know we should do because in our souls, we are made in His image and that is the part that is pure in all of us.
What makes me sad though, and I don't understand why He had to do this if God knew this would happen, is why Jesus had to go through so much pain and why this could not happen; this redemption ; in a less violent less painful way.
any help on this? I always get sad thinking of this............
and I once heard this man say, in a lecture that was not at all to sell any belief in terms of faith and religion to anyone, "Do good because it is good to do, not because of the promise of heaven or the threat of hell".
Together we will float like angels.........
In the moment that you left the room, the album started skipping, goodbye to beauty shared with the ones that you love.........
i dont need to sin to be humble. but my question is why do we need to humble ourselves? and to whom?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
...because without the phrase, "He died for our sins," the popularity of Jesus would never have gained so much ground. Point in fact is that the most common visual depiction of Jesus involves the image of his being crucified.
That is, for many people who follow christian ideology, the suffering of Jesus attests to his sincere concern for mankind. It is an establishment of credibility on his part.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
great question.
Considering Zeitgeist claims Christianity is basically a ripoff of Paganism, that Christianity is using Paganism for its own ends...
My thoughts about it are this:
Jesus had to suffer. He had to experience everything humans experience. The anger in the temple, the ultimate betrayal with a kiss, temptation, feelings of being God forsaken, and yes, actual physical pain. To me, a savior who never experienced these things would be completely useless. i would want nothing to do with a savior who never experienced the things i do. To me, THATS why the suffering of Christ was necessary. To me, its a bittersweet thing to think of. Its sad, yes, but in a very comforting way.
OK, 2 things.
first, Belief is the end of thought. Those who believe stop thinking critically.
And, second, the caller felt he was in friendly territory talking to that quack, because his explanation for the decision to not commit adultery involved the invocation of g-o-d. Surely, the good doctor would sing his praises and he could go on not thinking forever more. He only wanted to be appreciated for his confession of faith not his confession.
(It's got nothing to do with pointing a finger at the moon.)
Question: "Why did Jesus have to experience so much suffering?"
Answer: Isaiah 52:14 declares, “Just as there were many who were appalled at Him — His appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness.” Jesus suffered most severely throughout the trials, torture, and crucifixion (Matthew chapter 27, Mark chapter 15, Luke chapter 23, John chapter 19). As horrible as His physical suffering was, it was nothing compared to the spiritual suffering He went through. 2 Corinthians 5:21, "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." Jesus had the weight of the sins of the entire world on Him (1 John 2:2). It was sin that caused Jesus to cry out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46). So, as brutal as Jesus' physical suffering was, it was nothing compared to His having to bear our sins - and die for our sins (Romans 5:8).
Isaiah chapter 53, verses 3 and 5 especially predict Jesus’ suffering, “He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.” Psalm 22:14-18 is another powerful passage predicting the suffering of the Messiah, “I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted away within me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death. Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.”
Why did Jesus have to suffer so badly? Some think that Jesus' physical torture was part of His being punished for our sins, in our place. To some extent, this is likely the case. At the same time, the torture Jesus underwent speaks more of the hatred and cruelty of humanity than it does of God's punishment for sin. Satan's absolute hatred of God and Jesus was surely a part of the motivation behind the relentless torture and abuse. Jesus' suffering is the ultimate example of how sinful man feels toward a holy God (Romans 3:10-18).
I just got this off of a search; found it interesting........
But I also think that the reason for sin and forgiveness lies in personal conviction. When I first began to search on my own, as an adult, there were definite big things that I felt God wanted me to change but then after those things were accomplished (by much pain, difficulty, and help from Him), then there were things that I felt I should also change.
I will say though, after a lot of faith searching, a lot of desperation, and a lot of uncomfortable as well as painful things I went through, that a lot of the things we are so judgemental about are so off of His mark. In other words, we are a lot more arrogant and rule making than He would be. I try not to do that........I am no one to say I am forgiven and someone else isn't. But I also think,like in the cases of priests abusing alter boys, little boys in general, that they KNOW the sin they are committing; that makes them MORE guilty.
you know?
Together we will float like angels.........
In the moment that you left the room, the album started skipping, goodbye to beauty shared with the ones that you love.........
People have to go, "Father, bless me for I have sinned, I did an original sin… I poked a badger with a spoon."
"I've never heard of that one before! Five Hail Mary's and two Hello, Dolly's."
"Oh, all right..."
"Bless me, Father, for I have slept with my next door neighbor's wife."
"Heard it! I want an original sin."
"Oh, I'm terribly sorry!"
The Anglican faith doesn't have that. You'll never go,
"Vicar, I have done many bad things."
"Well, so have I."
"What shall I do?"
"Well, drink five Bloody Marys and you won't remember."
PJ albums, at the moment!! -
1,Vs 2,Vitalogy 3,No Code 4,Yield 5,Ten 6,Backspacer, 7Pearl Jam 8,Binaural 9,Riot Act.
lmao!!!
almost makes me wanna become anglican.... almost.
oh and i dont think poking a badger is a sin.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Glad to meet another believer here.......
I understand the comfort in knowing that when I have problems in my life that He also had pain, in physical but also perplexing ways, as we all do. I can then think, "He was the son of God and look all he endured, even in a perfect form of human being as He was. I can handle this and ask for His comfort."
And I may have said this before but there have been three times in my life when all I had tried did not help my situations and I have a cross in my room that has a purple robe laying across it to symbolize the reserrection and I have leaned down, forehead to the floor and asked for His help. I can say that in all three, He has heard as well as answered these prayers.
I do not do this lightly; He knows my heart so why lie, but when I am truly in pain, He understands and not in my own way, but His, He responds.
Together we will float like angels.........
In the moment that you left the room, the album started skipping, goodbye to beauty shared with the ones that you love.........
Even when people do what they "know" is wrong...they don't yet fully know it, imo, and are still involved in the learning process (by experience)... When they know better, they do better.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I can't really answer specific questions on these subjects because the answer would only be about my personal opinion, which is on par with anyone else's.. It's like talking about the finger that points at the moon...kind of a moot point for me. When I talk about being ego-centred, on the other hand, that's more about the general parameters of the ego and being centred in it, as per certain established schools of thought.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Therefore the true forgiveness is merely recognizing the truth. Many, many of us are not even remotely ready for this....We are always perfect in God's eyes. We are One with God. And God always knows this, coming from that place of pure awareness. Also, since God comes from a place beyond time...where separation and distance does not exist...God doesn't care if we wake up today, or a million years from now. The separation from this perfection stems from our egos and is in our experience alone...
When we go to the Light...God doesn't judge us...Instead, we see our faulty ego-selves in the Light of Truth, and we see our flaws clearly, for what they are. As long as we hold up separation, we cannot be "home", at-One. When we truly see the error of our ways, we feel deep sorrow, and feel the urge to come together with our truth. To bridge the sense of separation.
great points, btw, Abu!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
oh pish posh im past that now. im evolving.
and good god angelica its your opinion i want. otherwise what the hell is all this if not our individual opinions.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
If I find a view "too ridiculous" to contemplate, I have to open my mind up, or else I see myself as limiting my view. So I have to find a way to understand that view. I don't necessarily absorb the "ridiculous" idea into my view, itself. For me, if something sounds "ridiculous", it's because I've progressed past that type of thinking and I know it doesn't work for me...so there's little point it trying to do it again. But I will harmonize with it, and understand where that person is coming from. When I shut down and draw lines between myself or anyone, I personally see that I limit myself. I'm for expansion and growth.
I also own all my emotional responses...so if I don't tolerate something well, I keep that to myself--I own it and resolve that conflict within myself. I don't put that onto someone else by being deliberately repelling, or hostile, for the most part.
For example, I can't call someone's view "ridiculous" and put that label on them. If I find something "ridiculous" that's about me. And I know it gives people bad vibes if I project that outwards. They don't deserve to deal with my inner conflicts because of who they are or what they believe.
So, given I don't go by "ridiculous" views, but rather learn to understand them for that person, is that what you mean when you say it doesn't mean you don't appreciate reason for ridiculous views existing?
I think you and I might sometimes see things similarly, and yet communicate them differently.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Which is why people eventually evolve past their ego-centredness...to be able to live contentedly. In this life or beyond. If I see myself as the deep calm of the ocean, the ripples on the surface are mere entertainment.
At the same time, it's fair game asking for an opinion.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!