To the people who believe 911 was an inside job...

nobody · July 2008

Heineken Helen wrote:

BUT... they were your arguments in the Lisbon Treaty thread... that governments work in peoples best interests and, if they don't, simply vote them out. I'm not making this stuff up. You wanted answers... and now you're getting annoyed at the answers being given. I love discussing conspiracy theories and would happily talk about them all day... but there really is no reason to get annoyed just cos we have different opinions on stuff.

do you even see what you are claiming??
you don't even know what you said last...

first you say I believe governments always work in the best interests of people...

and now you say: I believe governments always work in the best interests of people and OTHERWISE PEOPLE VOTE THEM OUT...so you state yourself now...I believe both...that gov sometimes work in the interest and sometimes in doesnt

so how does this even make sense???????????????????

is that my opinion too??? or is that what you said??? and do you see it makes NO SENSE???

how are is any discussion even possible with such arguments?

Heineken Helen · July 2008

lgt wrote:

I don't think nobody is mocking - s/he seems just getting frustrated with the lack of serious answers, especially after the comparison with the fire in the Reichstag.

Which conspiracy theories are you referring to that have been proven to be true?

There are many... I gave a link after.

I know nothing about the fire in the Reichstag... s/he admitted to mocking though. Believe it or not, I can't speak for everyone, but I certainly read some serious answers and all the answers I've given were serious. I don't know what kinda answers s/he was expecting but you can't get annoyed if you ask a question and don't get the answers you want... I don't understand.

lgt · July 2008

Heineken Helen wrote:

But YOUR 'fact' is simply words written by other people about a series of events that were told to them by the people that MANY suspect to have had a hand in it. Where else are we supposed to get our truth from?

You get the truth - as far as you can get it or a close approximation of events, physical, political, etc - from many different sources, observations, cross-referencing of sources, reasoning and then you come to your own conclusion of what happened.

Facts are not just merely words - they are words backed-up logically, empirically, historically, etc. Otherwise they are opinions, as I've said before. Two different things.

nobody · July 2008

Heineken Helen wrote:

I'd gladly give you proof... but I'm not a scientist... so if you're looking for scientific proof of anything... you're asking the wrong person. I COULD however probably find 100,000s of links to 'prove' my point as could you I'm sure... and we could throw around links all day. However I thought this was a discussion. The original post asked questions, I answered with my opinion... and now he's getting annoyed that I'm not giving him 'proof'. Any 'proof' I give will simply be a link to another site.

you certainly annoy me...

I asked a question...and you answered it...and I thanked you...I didn't want proof...

OTHER people made HORRIFICLY FALSE CLAIMS AND I REFUTED THEM...

and what you display now is a huge lack of understanding what ideas, theories, facts and opinions actually are...and what you have to do to even make them VALID...having VALID points is the first requierment for even engaging in an argument or a discussion...
other wise I can make a post Darth Vader is behind 911...and there certainly is NOT MORE PROOF BUSH DID IT THAN DARTH VADER...

m.

lgt · July 2008

Heineken Helen wrote:

There are many... I gave a link after.

I know nothing about the fire in the Reichstag... s/he admitted to mocking though. Believe it or not, I can't speak for everyone, but I certainly read some serious answers and all the answers I've given were serious. I don't know what kinda answers s/he was expecting but you can't get annoyed if you ask a question and don't get the answers you want... I don't understand.

Should have clarified....

Answers leading to a reasoned debate: one claims something, the other asks to verify it with a serious of questions, which is where the evidence and proof should come.. but never comes. I think this is the reason for frustration, not just the historically inaccurate comparison - and not so much on the type of anwers, their content.

Heineken Helen · July 2008

lgt wrote:

You get the truth - as far as you can get it or a close approximation of events, physical, political, etc - from many different sources, observations, cross-referencing of sources, reasoning and then you come to your own conclusion of what happened.

Facts are not just merely words - they are words backed-up logically, empirically, historically, etc. Otherwise they are opinions, as I've said before. Two different things.

many conspiracy theories can be backed up logically, empirically, historically, etc. logic and history does not necessarily make something fact. i've tried using logic and history to back up my opinions in this thread as have others... and it's simply resulted in nobody's head apparently exploding

conspiracy theories are complex... it's not just something you can put into words and they get it. If you really, genuinely don't get it, you probably never will.

nobody · July 2008

Heineken Helen wrote:

But YOUR 'fact' is simply words written by other people about a series of events that were told to them by the people that MANY suspect to have had a hand in it. Where else are we supposed to get our truth from?

there are pictures...
there are videos...there are hundreds of eye-witnesses...
there ARE ORIGINAL sources you can check out...not only things written down by other people who were told to write stuff down...

m.

nobody · July 2008

Heineken Helen wrote:

well, there's not much I can say in reply to that :rolleyes: since it's just you voicing your opinion of me rather than discussing the topic at hand. If that's your opinion, fine

you are not serious...

THIS IS A FACT THAT YOU MISREPRESENTED MY OPINIONS so that they fit your logic...

don't you see that what you say about me is wrong?????
is it not a FACT????

if you seriously think that...well...I dunno...get a doctor...

m.

Flannel Shirt · July 2008

Who knows, maybe demolition teams have had it wrong all these years. Instead of carefully planting explosives in strategic places within buildings to take them down in a controlled fashion, maybe they just needed to start a fire at the top.

The Champ · July 2008

To make this thread credible, we need more links provided by Roland and Driftin--btw, where is this guy and all his 'credible' sources

?

m.

nobody · July 2008

Flannel Shirt wrote:

Who knows, maybe demolition teams have had it wrong all these years. Instead of carefully planting explosives in strategic places within buildings to take them down in a controlled fashion, maybe they just needed to start a fire at the top.

yeah...by using a passenger plane to start the fire...

I am out of here...

this is beyond common sense(and I'm not talking about my initial questions), but this complete lack of sense for even the most common basic rules of reasoning...

m.

lgt · July 2008

Heineken Helen wrote:

Definition of opinion:

http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:opinion&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title

The two are certainly unrelated... and that's NOT my opinion... that's fact

One of the key features of reasoned debate and arguing: two different and opposing viewpoints that must be respectively backed-up with evidence. When one viewpoint is proven wrong, that idea is consequently disproven as false, therefore cannot be upheld logically and reasonably any longer. This is how human knowledge progresses.

One can still believe that the earth does not move - it's a perfectly reasonale opinion that one can have, right? all opinions are valid. BUT it is no longer backed up by facts and evidence, therefore it is false and cannot be accepted as valid and true representation of reality.

A debate must show some progress, otherwise one can claim everything and the contrary of everything, and all would be perfectly valid.

The Champ · July 2008

nobody wrote:

you are not serious...

THIS IS A FACT THAT YOU MISREPRESENTED MY OPINIONS so that they fit your logic...

don't you see that what you say about me is wrong?????
is it not a FACT????

if you seriously think that...well...I dunno...get a doctor...

m.

Don't flip dude, it's not worth it..This should be your last attempt to argue with her..I learned the hard way a long time ago, right Hel

..

m.

nobody · July 2008

lgt wrote:

One of the key features of reasoned debate and arguing: two different and opposing viewpoints that must be respectively backed-up with evidence. When one viewpoint is proven wrong, that idea is consequently disproven as false, therefore cannot be upheld logically and reasonably any longer. This is how human knowledge progresses.

One can still believe that the earth does not move - it's a perfectly reasonale opinion that one can have, right? all opinions are valid. BUT it is no longer backed up by facts and evidence, therefore it is false and cannot be accepted as valid and true representation of reality.

A debate must show some progress, otherwise one can claim everything and the contrary of everything, and all would be perfectly valid.

once again...I thank you too:)

I didn't want to get carried away...
but the complete lack of will to even slightly understand where I'm coming from, ongoing evasion, accusations, factually false claims, and utter lack of knowledge of historical, social, and economic processes...was just TOO much...

m.

lgt · July 2008

Heineken Helen wrote:

it happens

http://conspiraciesthatweretrue.blogspot.com/2007/01/list-of-proven-conspiracies-from.html

and I'M the close minded one? I'm not stating my opinion as fact... I've accepted many conspiracy theories are most likely just a pile of bollox... my whole argument is that the whole thing is questionable and that there are not enough facts on either side.

Caesar killed by a plot organised by his own nephew is not a conspiracy theory. It's a well-known historical fact.

Conspiracy and political intrigue do happen in history.

Conspiracy theories such as the international Jewish conspiracy running the world (a long-standing conspiracy theory) has still to be proven to be true - although the Nazi party did their "best" to provide evidence for this claim.

The issue is to prove what you claim, on both sides of the argument.

nobody · July 2008

The Champ wrote:

Don't flip dude, it's not worth it..This should be your last attempt to argue with her..I learned the hard way a long time ago, right Hel ..

m.

I don't call it argueing...I call it a waste of time...
and it will make me fail my final exams...stupid me...

m.

nobody · July 2008

lgt wrote:

Caesar killed by a plot organised by his own nephew is not a conspiracy theory. It's a well-known historical fact.

Conspiracy and political intrigue do happen in history.

Conspiracy theories such as the international Jewish conspiracy running the world (a long-standing conspiracy theory) has still to be proven to be true - although the Nazi party did their "best" to provide evidence for this claim.

The issue is to prove what you claim, on both sides of the argument.

and this by the way...for everyone to see...is a VALID historical example...

m.

Heineken Helen · July 2008

lgt wrote:

One of the key features of reasoned debate and arguing: two different and opposing viewpoints that must be respectively backed-up with evidence. When one viewpoint is proven wrong, that idea is consequently disproven as false, therefore cannot be upheld logically and reasonably any longer. This is how human knowledge progresses.

One can still believe that the earth does not move - it's a perfectly reasonale opinion that one can have, right? all opinions are valid. BUT it is no longer backed up by facts and evidence, therefore it is false and cannot be accepted as valid and true representation of reality.

A debate must show some progress, otherwise one can claim everything and the contrary of everything, and all would be perfectly valid.

and we'd all live happily ever after

what's wrong with that?

The Champ · July 2008

nobody wrote:

I don't call it argueing...I call it a waste of time...
and it will make me fail my final exams...stupid me...

m.

But now at least you realize and can once again focus on something meaningful. Good luck on the exams..

m.

lgt · July 2008

nobody wrote:

this isn't what people claim here...and I never attacked anyone that makes such a statement...
this is really spin at its best...I can't believe you don't actually work for a government...

people here made SPECIFIC OUTRAGOUS CLAIMS that I energetically denied...

Ahmadineshad claims the Holocaust never happened...am I supposed to respect his opinion??? or am I allowed to call him and absolute idiot???
people who even remotely compare Bush(or even Obama) to Hitler ARE INSANE!!!! they don't voice an opinion...they voice UTTER NONSENSE...and if some isn't allowed to speak out against them...or yes...even mock them...what the hell is going wrong???

I urge you again to watch the movie I repeatedly mentioned and THEN
read the website I repeatedly linked...it is ONE good example of how deception works and how many people still believe it for fact...cause...THEY DONT HAVE A CLUE...

and that is really all I have to say here...

opinions, arguments, facts? yeah, only what is the connection between those???
this isn't even funny anymore...

have a nice day...

m.

actually... to play Devil's Advocate and lighten the mood of this thread somewhat

You can still respect Ahmadinejab opinion that the Holocaust did not happen but not accept it. We are all human beings. The problem occur when this common understanding gets offuscated in ideology and propaganda.

Remember Voltaire?

To the people who believe 911 was an inside job...

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