Nicolas Sarkozy plans to bypass Irish no vote

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Comments

  • Heineken Helen
    Heineken Helen Posts: 18,095
    dunkman wrote:
    you were forced to have a referendum ;):p
    :confused: Nobody said if I didn't vote I'd have no dinner for a week :p

    So nope, I wasn't. Me personally, I was not forced into either decision... unlike at LEAST some of the governments of the 26 other countries.
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • nobody
    nobody Posts: 353
    Heineken Helen wrote:
    what do you mean nothing happens? Things stay the same... but the EU has plenty of power as it is. Sure they're always giving us slaps on the wrist over this and over that... there's plenty they can do and are doing.

    two little ironies that I heard on the news just now:
    a)without the treaty in the next phase of legislature one country of the 27 cannot be in the european council.
    who decides which one?
    is that democratic?

    b) without the treaty next year after the eu parliament election germany will have more representatives than were planned under the treaty


    besides: I don't think referendums are the answer here. people elected their parliaments. there are parties in every country that are contra-eu or contra-a-closer-eu. they can be voted for in secret and democratic elections.
    in poland for example they were in power for a while.

    again: with referendums neither germany nor france would have a commen currency, the eastern countries wouldn't be in the eu, and there sure as well wouldn't be open borders...

    m.
    Godwin's Law:
    "As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
  • Rhinocerous Surprise
    Rhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    nobody wrote:
    two little ironies that I heard on the news just now:
    a)without the treaty in the next phase of legislature one country of the 27 cannot be in the european council.
    who decides which one?
    is that democratic?

    b) without the treaty next year after the eu parliament election germany will have more representatives than were planned under the treaty


    besides: I don't think referendums are the answer here. people elected their parliaments. there are parties in every country that are contra-eu or contra-a-closer-eu. they can be voted for in secret and democratic elections.
    in poland for example they were in power for a while.

    again: with referendums neither germany nor france would have a commen currency, the eastern countries wouldn't be in the eu, and there sure as well wouldn't be open borders...

    m.

    And I keep telling you, referendums have to be the answer in Ireland. It's in our Constitution - without a referendum, the Treaty would be illegal.
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • Specifics
    Specifics Posts: 417
    nobody wrote:
    besides: I don't think referendums are the answer here. people elected their parliaments. there are parties in every country that are contra-eu or contra-a-closer-eu. they can be voted for in secret and democratic elections.
    in poland for example they were in power for a while.

    the UK elected a party who had as a major part of their manifesto the promise of a referendum. Ye ye treaty constitution, untrustworthy backdoor crap.
    nobody wrote:
    again: with referendums neither germany nor france would have a commen currency, the eastern countries wouldn't be in the eu, and there sure as well wouldn't be open borders...

    m.

    i know best presumption that makes people distrust government and those that love them.
  • nobody
    nobody Posts: 353
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    And I keep telling you, referendums have to be the answer in Ireland. It's in our Constitution - without a referendum, the Treaty would be illegal.

    and I keep repeating that I know that. but people here continue refering to it as undemocratic if OTHER countries don't have referendums. a ratification by an elected parliament can be and is just as democratic as a referendum. the latter doesn't have 80units of democracy and the other only 65units of democracy...

    m.
    Godwin's Law:
    "As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
  • nobody
    nobody Posts: 353
    Specifics wrote:
    the UK elected a party who had as a major part of their manifesto the promise of a referendum. Ye ye treaty constitution, untrustworthy backdoor crap.



    i know best presumption that makes people distrust government and those that love them.

    well, that's representative democracy...you are free to reject it, not go to vote, and organise referendums for every matter that you are interested in.

    and I don't understand what you mean by your last statement, sorry.

    m.
    Godwin's Law:
    "As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
  • Rhinocerous Surprise
    Rhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    nobody wrote:
    and I keep repeating that I know that. but people here continue refering to it as undemocratic if OTHER countries don't have referendums. a ratification by an elected parliament can be and is just as democratic as a referendum. the latter doesn't have 80units of democracy and the other only 65units of democracy...

    m.

    Well, France and Holland rejected the EU Constitution a few years back. This time, they reworded it so that the government could decide for them - Sarkozy even admitted that it would have been rejected again if it had gone to the people. Doesn't exactly scream democracy, does it?
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • nobody
    nobody Posts: 353
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    Well, France and Holland rejected the EU Constitution a few years back. This time, they reworded it so that the government could decide for them - Sarkozy even admitted that it would have been rejected again if it had gone to the people. Doesn't exactly scream democracy, does it?

    Sarkozy was elected by the majority of French people, wasn't he?
    They could have gone with Le Pen if they wanted a different(=no) eu.
    The French are to blame, just as the americans are to blame for electing Bush (the second time at least;)).

    m.
    Godwin's Law:
    "As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
  • lgt
    lgt Posts: 720
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    Well, France and Holland rejected the EU Constitution a few years back. This time, they reworded it so that the government could decide for them - Sarkozy even admitted that it would have been rejected again if it had gone to the people. Doesn't exactly scream democracy, does it?

    but the again, the sovereign French people elected by majority Nicholas Sarkozy as their president knowing full well about his position re: Lisbon Treaty.

    Edit: just saw Nobody's post.
  • nobody
    nobody Posts: 353
    lgt wrote:
    but the again, the sovereign French people elected by majority Nicholas Sarkozy as their president knowing full well about his position re: Lisbon Treaty.

    first one!
    ;)
    Godwin's Law:
    "As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
  • lgt
    lgt Posts: 720
    Yielded wrote:
    Hmmm... So what exactly is the problem with implementing a treaty that will most probably be ratified by 26 out of 27 countries? Ireland's vote would be respected, since the new measures wouldn't apply to Ireland.
    I don't think it's particularly fair for one single country to stop this from happening for 26 others.
    Maybe I'm missing something, but Ireland's 'No' would be bypassed how exactly? Again, the article clearly states that only countries who ratify the treaty would implement those measures. Ireland would NOT be affected.

    Agreed.
  • Specifics
    Specifics Posts: 417
    nobody wrote:
    well, that's representative democracy...you are free to reject it, not go to vote, and organise referendums for every matter that you are interested in.

    and I don't understand what you mean by your last statement, sorry.

    m.

    You obviously didnt understand the first statement either, but i cant be arsed with any of it to be honest. You heart government, for your own reasons. i don't trust them because their actions are untrustworthy to me. thats about as far as we're going to get.

    Free to reject it! good one.
  • nobody
    nobody Posts: 353
    Specifics wrote:
    You obviously didnt understand the first statement either, but i cant be arsed with any of it to be honest. You heart government, for your own reasons. i don't trust them because their actions are untrustworthy to me. thats about as far as we're going to get.

    Free to reject it! good one.

    i understood very well (your first statement). and my answer is. get active and organize referendums about issues you are interested in. it's possible, at least on a local level...

    m.
    Godwin's Law:
    "As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
  • Specifics
    Specifics Posts: 417
    nobody wrote:
    i understood very well (your first statement). and my answer is. get active and organize referendums about issues you are interested in. it's possible, at least on a local level...

    m.

    election manifesto.
  • nobody
    nobody Posts: 353
    and I don't "heart" government. but I don't see how 80+ million people can live without one...but let's not get off topic...you seem fairly angry to me anyway...but that's just me...

    m.
    Godwin's Law:
    "As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
  • Rhinocerous Surprise
    Rhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    Well, for one thing, the fact that they had already voted down the Constitution means that even the introduction of the Lisbon Treaty, as if it's some completely different idea, is pretty undemocratic.

    And are the Irish the last ones left who think an elected government should still represent the wishes of the people, rather than their own wishes? :confused:
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • Heineken Helen
    Heineken Helen Posts: 18,095
    nobody wrote:
    two little ironies that I heard on the news just now:
    a)without the treaty in the next phase of legislature one country of the 27 cannot be in the european council.
    who decides which one?
    is that democratic?

    b) without the treaty next year after the eu parliament election germany will have more representatives than were planned under the treaty


    besides: I don't think referendums are the answer here. people elected their parliaments. there are parties in every country that are contra-eu or contra-a-closer-eu. they can be voted for in secret and democratic elections.
    in poland for example they were in power for a while.

    again: with referendums neither germany nor france would have a commen currency, the eastern countries wouldn't be in the eu, and there sure as well wouldn't be open borders...

    m.
    I'd say that one country is already chosen :) and that's a pile of bollox... I'm sure they can change that easily without blaming the treaty and our no vote.

    See... I think we've seen enough examples of dictatorships throughout the world to prove that we cannot put the power solely in the hands of governments. Do we not learn anything?
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • lgt
    lgt Posts: 720
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    Well, for one thing, the fact that they had already voted down the Constitution means that even the introduction of the Lisbon Treaty, as if it's some completely different idea, is pretty undemocratic.

    And are the Irish the last ones left who think an elected government should still represent the wishes of the people, rather than their own wishes? :confused:

    why on earth would that be undemocratic??!!?!

    indeed, they took on board what the people said with their NO vote and reworked the treaty taking into account all the member states concerns, via the EU parliament, lobby groups [including citizens], the Council, the EU Commision.

    BTW, any government is made up of people, i.e. representives, that the majority of voters have chosen.

    There isn't just direct democracy [like you had in Ancient Greece] but there's also the concept of parliamentary representative democracy.
  • Heineken Helen
    Heineken Helen Posts: 18,095
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    And are the Irish the last ones left who think an elected government should still represent the wishes of the people, rather than their own wishes? :confused:
    I guess we'll never know :o at the very least we're the last ones who ENFORCE it... on a european level at least.
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • Specifics
    Specifics Posts: 417
    nobody wrote:
    and I don't "heart" government. but I don't see how 80+ million people can live without one...but let's not get off topic...you seem fairly angry to me anyway...but that's just me...

    m.

    did you just pluck that figure out of the air? i dont see how 1 government can govrn 60 milliion. what has my emotional state got to do with anything? you seem like an ass kissing geek anyway...but thats just me

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