Nicolas Sarkozy plans to bypass Irish no vote

Rhinocerous Surprise

lgt wrote:

why on earth would that be undemocratic??!!?!

indeed, they took on board what the people said with their NO vote and reworked the treaty taking into account all the member states concerns, via the EU parliament, lobby groups [including citizens], the Council, the EU Commision.

BTW, any government is made up of people, i.e. representives, that the majority of voters have chosen.

There isn't just direct democracy [like you had in Ancient Greece] but there's also the concept of parliamentary representative democracy.

Taking something two countries rejected, rewording it so their governments can ratify it even thought it's basically the same document...? Sounds pretty shady to me.

dunkman

Heineken Helen wrote:

Nobody said if I didn't vote I'd have no dinner for a week

So nope, I wasn't. Me personally, I was not forced into either decision... unlike at LEAST some of the governments of the 26 other countries.

i never said you personally... you said your COUNTRY wasnt forced into anything, but it was, it was forced to have a referendum.

lgt

is it then democratic for a small percentage of the EU population [the Irish who voted NO] to block any further integration of the other 26 member states?

The Irish people decided they do not want further integration, for whatever reasons. They want things as they are.

But this cannot be. You have more member states and archaic decision-making procedures [the veto power].

Furthermore, within the Lisbon Treaty there was a provision to increase the powers of the EU parliament [this is where each EU citizen can get their voice heard by casting their vote for their party of choice in the EU elections] as well as a EU citizen charter, which also gave powers to citizen directly to ask the Commission to divise a law/directive.

So much then for democracy then.

Rhinocerous Surprise

dunkman wrote:

i never said you personally... you said your COUNTRY wasnt forced into anything, but it was, it was forced to have a referendum.

Technically, she said she wasn't forced into either decision.

Heineken Helen

dunkman wrote:

i never said you personally... you said your COUNTRY wasnt forced into anything, but it was, it was forced to have a referendum.

true! but it's hardly the same... being forced to present the choice to your people? Or being told which choice to make? I know which one I'd take

lgt

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Taking something two countries rejected, rewording it so their governments can ratify it even thought it's basically the same document...? Sounds pretty shady to me.

Why shady???

It was done in discussion with all member states and negotiations.

You need to consider the wishes and interests of those who approved it too.

Politics is the art of what's possible - through mediation, compromise, negotiation, for the greater good of the majority.

dunkman

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Technically, she said she wasn't forced into either decision.

she said that afterwards.

Heineken Helen wrote:

We're pretty much the only country who weren't forced into anything : o

dunkman wrote:

you were forced to have a referendum : p

anyway, it was meant as a joke... but whooosh

Heineken Helen

lgt wrote:

is it then democratic for a small percentage of the EU population [the Irish who voted NO] to block any further integration of the other 26 member states?

The Irish people decided they do not want further integration, for whatever reasons. They want things as they are.

But this cannot be. You have more member states and archaic decision-making procedures [the veto power].

Furthermore, within the Lisbon Treaty there was a provision to increase the powers of the EU parliament [this is where each EU citizen can get their voice heard by casting their vote for their party of choice in the EU elections] as well as a EU citizen charter, which also gave powers to citizen directly to ask the Commission to divise a law/directive.

So much then for democracy then.

Of course it was democratic... surely a constitution would have to be ratified by EVERY 'country' (not state).

Why can't it be? It works fine! If we voted yes, we would no longer get to choose and our government would be bullied by France and Germany to make the choices for us... my main problem was voting to have our vote removed :mad:

Hmm... so you mean... we, a population of 4 million will be voting alongside countries with populations of 80 million... and countries that are the other side of the continent... on who's going to govern US? :eek: And that citizens initiative was a pile of crap by the way... a million signatories can INVITE the parliament to consider a proposal? Surely we can do that as it is. If I had a million signatures, I could send it to europe and I'm sure they'd consider whether to look at it or not... I highly doubt there's anything in the laws as they are to prevent them.

Specifics

lgt wrote:

Politics is the art of what's possible - through mediation, compromise, negotiation, for the greater good of the majority.

man thats just fucking scary!!

I prefer to look at is as something thats supposed to look after your back while your slaving away all week.

Edit: let the people look after whats possible ye.

Heineken Helen

lgt wrote:

Politics is the art of what's possible - through mediation, compromise, negotiation, for the greater good of the majority.

:eek: NO! That's what politics SHOULD be... and it so often proves NOT to be.

nobody

Heineken Helen wrote:

I'd say that one country is already chosen and that's a pile of bollox... I'm sure they can change that easily without blaming the treaty and our no vote.

See... I think we've seen enough examples of dictatorships throughout the world to prove that we cannot put the power solely in the hands of governments. Do we not learn anything?

no no no...it's far from chosen...
and it's standing EU law that can't be changed so easily...as is the number of seats for each country in the (at the moment powerless) parliament...

again: i don't see a dictatorship here...people will continue to elect the government...how is this a dictatorship...it has been like this for decades...there has never been a time when referendums were used to make policy
in germany the US, britain and france ratified the constitution (worked out by german politicians under ally supervision), no referendum whatsoever...

m.

nobody

Specifics wrote:

did you just pluck that figure out of the air? i dont see how 1 government can govrn 60 milliion. what has my emotional state got to do with anything? you seem like an ass kissing geek anyway...but thats just me

no it's the german population.
he who talks loud saying nothing (does that make sense to you?)

m.

dunkman

Heineken Helen wrote:

true! but it's hardly the same... being forced to present the choice to your people? Or being told which choice to make? I know which one I'd take

but the only problem is you leave the decision with a bunch of people who know fuck all about the topic they've been asked to vote on.

you yourself on the 28th April 2008 said:-
http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=5410228&postcount=1

my my.. havent we be reading up on it... you're the expert on it after a month?

Specifics

nobody wrote:

no it's the german population.
he who talks loud saying nothing (does that make sense to you?)

m.

election manifesto

nobody

Heineken Helen wrote:

Of course it was democratic... surely a constitution would have to be ratified by EVERY 'country' (not state).

Why can't it be? It works fine! If we voted yes, we would no longer get to choose and our government would be bullied by France and Germany to make the choices for us... my main problem was voting to have our vote removed :mad:

Hmm... so you mean... we, a population of 4 million will be voting alongside countries with populations of 80 million... and countries that are the other side of the continent... on who's going to govern US? :eek: And that citizens initiative was a pile of crap by the way... a million signatories can INVITE the parliament to consider a proposal? Surely we can do that as it is. If I had a million signatures, I could send it to europe and I'm sure they'd consider whether to look at it or not... I highly doubt there's anything in the laws as they are to prevent them.

well, if you're not going to believe anything "they" are saying why bother anyways. they could bring millions of treaties and you would still think it's shady and full of backdoors, cause "they" are just out to fool you...
best solution: leave the eu...

and by the way: Ireland would have more voting power than it had previously...evil countries like germany and france would have less...

m.

lgt

Heineken Helen wrote:

Of course it was democratic... surely a constitution would have to be ratified by EVERY 'country' (not state).

The Lisbon Treaty stated that it was to be ratified by all member states.

18 said yes. 1 said no. We'll see what the others will choose. If you have a situation whereby 26 have said yes, we want these changes, why shouldn't they?

Of course, it won't be the Lisbon Treaty, but it will be called something else.

But if there is a will, there will be a way.

Nothing will happen to Ireland - it will remain as it is, but it will be excluded from further changes / integration unless it chooses to be a part of it [and because of your constitutional arrangements it will have to be done by a popular referendum.]

Not sure why you excluded states. States are the political entity of a nation.

Heineken Helen wrote:

Why can't it be? It works fine! If we voted yes, we would no longer get to choose and our government would be bullied by France and Germany to make the choices for us... my main problem was voting to have our vote removed :mad:

because decision-making becomes impossible with one country- whichever country - imposing a veto. surely, a decision by majority is democratic right?

Ireland will still have a vote.

It will be qualified majority voting, not veto. This is what happens in any parliamentary democracy.

Heineken Helen wrote:

Hmm... so you mean... we, a population of 4 million will be voting alongside countries with populations of 80 million... and countries that are the other side of the continent... on who's going to govern US? :eek: And that citizens initiative was a pile of crap by the way... a million signatories can INVITE the parliament to consider a proposal? Surely we can do that as it is. If I had a million signatures, I could send it to europe and I'm sure they'd consider whether to look at it or not... I highly doubt there's anything in the laws as they are to prevent them.

The Irish people would still be governed by the government they elect as well as in other supra-national matters by EU directives [these are put forward by the Commission, upon invitation by the parliament and the council - all expression of national self-interest]

The initiative was to invite the Commission to promote a law in certain areas. I will need to dig the details on how many signatures needed etc.

Specifics

nobody wrote:

no it's the german population.
he who talks loud saying nothing (does that make sense to you?)

m.

the UK govenment was voted in on an election manifesto promising a referendum, that gives you the right not to assume we want it bacause you personally, and our goverment does ( i said that quietly, almost whispered it)

Heineken Helen

nobody wrote:

well, if you're not going to believe anything "they" are saying why bother anyways. they could bring millions of treaties and you would still think it's shady and full of backdoors, cause "they" are just out to fool you...
best solution: leave the eu...

and by the way: Ireland would have more voting power than it had previously...evil countries like germany and france would have less...

m.

Yeh yeh, people keep pointing that out to us. I never said we as a country would have less power... my problem has ALWAYS been that the power will be even LESS in the hands of the people... citizens initiative my arse... that's all we'd be left with.

BTW, do you know Ireland always comes up close to tops in polls as to satisfaction rating regarding the EU. We love the EU, nobody wants to leave... but we certainly don't wanna join the USE... who said Germany lost the war eh? (and I'm sorry if you take offense at that... but you have to see we're coming from 2 different sides here... why do you think Germans seem to be PRO treaty?)

lgt

Specifics wrote:

man thats just fucking scary!!

I prefer to look at is as something thats supposed to look after your back while your slaving away all week.

Edit: let the people look after whats possible ye.

whereas imposing the will of a minority would be preferable to negotiation and compromise of different interests??!!

Heineken Helen

nobody wrote:

no no no...it's far from chosen...
and it's standing EU law that can't be changed so easily...as is the number of seats for each country in the (at the moment powerless) parliament...

again: i don't see a dictatorship here...people will continue to elect the government...how is this a dictatorship...it has been like this for decades...there has never been a time when referendums were used to make policy
in germany the US, britain and france ratified the constitution (worked out by german politicians under ally supervision), no referendum whatsoever...

m.

Oh that's fine... we ratified our own constitution under no supervision after we finally kicked the brits out

the irony is now they have a great opportunity to stand up for us... and they won't.

DriftingByTheStorm

So is this whole little Ireland-EU dilemma making anyone realize how much "fun" true world government \ "global governance" is going to be?

Is some of the "crazy" shit people (ahem) on here have been discussing starting to clarify into a more understandable reality?

Do we now comprehend why the unification and consolidation of power in to the hands of elitist assholes is probably not (and will probably NEVER be) the right answer?

I believe i once got laughed at for suggesting that "they" just would NOT care about your "vote" and would ignore you.

How "funny" is that notion these day?

:(

lgt

Heineken Helen wrote:

:eek: NO! That's what politics SHOULD be... and it so often proves NOT to be.

I agree, the theory is not always the practice. But it is up to every citizen and activist to ensure that this happens: either by being actively involved in political campaigns or just by casting the ballot.

Heineken Helen

dunkman wrote:

but the only problem is you leave the decision with a bunch of people who know fuck all about the topic they've been asked to vote on.

you yourself on the 28th April 2008 said:-
http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=5410228&postcount=1

my my.. havent we be reading up on it... you're the expert on it after a month?

that's almost 2 months dunk :rolleyes: and if you read about it in the paper every day, watched it on the news every day, checked online sources every day, read all the leaflets every day... debated it every day... you might have a fair fucking idea too what it's about :mad:

Heineken Helen

lgt wrote:

Of course, it won't be the Lisbon Treaty, but it will be called something else.

But if there is a will, there will be a way.

:( wow! And you're fine with that?

lgt

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

So is this whole little Ireland-EU dilemma making anyone realize how much "fun" true world government \ "global governance" is going to be?

Is some of the "crazy" shit people (ahem) on here have been discussing starting to clarify into a more understandable reality?

Do we now comprehend why the unification and consolidation of power in to the hands of elitist assholes is probably not (and will probably NEVER be) the right answer?

I believe i once got laughed at for suggesting that "they" just would NOT care about your "vote" and would ignore you.

How "funny" is that notion these day?

:(

er... do you know what the Treaty was about??

It was actually about increasing democracy, so that people had more of an influence via their representatives in the EU parliament and via qualified majority voting.

What elite assholes do you actually refer to??

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

:( wow! And you're fine with that?

Third time's a charm?

nobody

let me try and ask something...
this treaty dies, because of Irelands vote...after that several countries, many of which supported the treaty will decide to form something similiar to the outline in the treaty...others won't...

what problem exactly will you have with that?
it would rid you of many problems and some said that don't want to be part of the union anymore anyway...

m.

Collin

lgt wrote:

whereas imposing the will of a minority would be preferable to negotiation and compromise of different interests??!!

It's not imposing the will of a minority. It's imposing the will of the EU.

Heineken Helen

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

So is this whole little Ireland-EU dilemma making anyone realize how much "fun" true world government \ "global governance" is going to be?

Is some of the "crazy" shit people (ahem) on here have been discussing starting to clarify into a more understandable reality?

Do we now comprehend why the unification and consolidation of power in to the hands of elitist assholes is probably not (and will probably NEVER be) the right answer?

I believe i once got laughed at for suggesting that "they" just would NOT care about your "vote" and would ignore you.

How "funny" is that notion these day?

:(

It's not very funny at all :( and the weird thing is the words of the yes people are scaring the shit out of me. They talk about how undemocratic it all was so they're just going to call it something else and ignore our vote. And one wonders why I've been becoming more paranoid recently? The celebrations over the weekend were short lived. Sadly back to reality... back to fucking 1984! AND THE YES PEOPLE THINK WE'RE WRONG? We chose... we voted... we just voted the wrong way! This is seriously all wrong!

Heineken Helen

lgt wrote:

er... do you know what the Treaty was about??

It was actually about increasing democracy, so that people had more of an influence via their representatives in the EU parliament and via qualified majority voting.

What elite assholes do you actually refer to??

so we'll just ignore democracy to pass it?