Nicolas Sarkozy plans to bypass Irish no vote

lgt

Heineken Helen wrote:

That's not what we were asked to vote on... AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But you cannot impose the will of one to the majority.

How's that democratic??

Can any of you answer this point?

Heineken Helen

lgt wrote:

EXACTLY

no one is dismissing Irleand or their vote.

On the other hand, you cannot pretend for one country to stop the process of European integration.

It just won't happen if there is a majority of member states willing to press on.

So that IS dismissing us... that's EXACTLY what it is.

Ya know what, I give up :( Europe can do whatever the hell it wants... cos that's one thing I'm learning from these treaties... it WILL!

nobody

Heineken Helen wrote:

Hmmm... so why does poll after poll across europe suggest strongly that the parliaments (not just one) are not representing the wishes of their people?

I recommend you go to this website http://www.europeansocialsurvey.org
download the necessary data if you have the possibility to take a look at it and you will see the parliaments indeed don't fully reflect the will of "the people"
-in the matter of homosexual rights
-death penatly
-acceptance of migrants
-divorce
-women's rights
etc.

it is because "the people" change their mind every day, because of short-sigthened self-interested, that are everything but ignorant or dull, but not necessarily the best foundation for everyday politics.

m.

Heineken Helen

lgt wrote:

But you cannot impose the will of one to the majority.

How's that democratic??

Can any of you answer this point?

It's democratic... cos we were essentially voting for a new constitution... one which needs EVERY country to agree. We voted, but we voted in a more democratic way to the rest of you and we chose a different way. Ireland won on Friday but democracy lost... and we've proven how hypocritical the entire system is.

lgt

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Were France told they were going to be left aside? That the EU would just go on without them? No - but Ireland is getting that treatment.

But Ireland has expressed with their referendum the choice not to have the Treaty into effect.

Ireland is 1% of the EU population. Should they stop the process for the other 400,000 EU citizens?

I'm sure negotiations are currently under way to see what the Irish government proposes as a solution to this crisis.

This however, does not mean that it should block the other member states from moving forward.

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

So that IS dismissing us... that's EXACTLY what it is.

Ya know what, I give up :( Europe can do whatever the hell it wants... cos that's one thing I'm learning from these treaties... it WILL!

Yep. Opposing votes are just minor obstacles on the path to progress. :(

Heineken Helen

nobody wrote:

I recommend you go to this website http://www.europeansocialsurvey.org
download the necessary data if you have the possibility to take a look at it and you will see the parliaments indeed don't fully reflect the will of "the people"
-in the matter of homosexual rights
-death penatly
-acceptance of migrants
-divorce
-women's rights
etc.

it is because "the people" change their mind every day, because of short-sigthened self-interested, that are everything but ignorant or dull, but not necessarily the best foundation for everyday politics.

m.

I don't get what that proves

Rhinocerous Surprise

lgt wrote:

But Ireland has expressed with their referendum the choice not to have the Treaty into effect.

Ireland is 1% of the EU population. Should they stop the process for the other 400,000 EU citizens?

I'm sure negotiations are currently under way to see what the Irish government proposes as a solution to this crisis.

This however, does not mean that it should block the other member states from moving forward.

So you ARE saying that size counts when it comes to vetoes.

Heineken Helen

lgt wrote:

But Ireland has expressed with their referendum the choice not to have the Treaty into effect.

Ireland is 1% of the EU population. Should they stop the process for the other 400,000 EU citizens?

I'm sure negotiations are currently under way to see what the Irish government proposes as a solution to this crisis.

This however, does not mean that it should block the other member states from moving forward.

Again you mention the size of Ireland... that kinda disproves your point that all countries are respected in Europe.

nobody

Heineken Helen wrote:

It's democratic... cos we were essentially voting for a new constitution... one which needs EVERY country to agree. We voted, but we voted in a more democratic way to the rest of you and we chose a different way. Ireland won on Friday but democracy lost... and we've proven how hypocritical the entire system is.

i still disagree with your claim that you voted in a more democratic way as other countries...

m.

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Yep. Opposing votes are just minor obstacles on the path to progress. :(

Not even a DAY had gone by and they were already discussing how to completely fucking IGNORE US! :mad:

lgt

Heineken Helen wrote:

It's democratic... cos we were essentially voting for a new constitution... one which needs EVERY country to agree. We voted, but we voted in a more democratic way to the rest of you and we chose a different way. Ireland won on Friday but democracy lost... and we've proven how hypocritical the entire system is.

It is NOT more democratic. A referendum or a vote through representative democracy are equally democratic.

Ireland is NOT more democratic than the other EU member states because of this referendum!

This is quite an arrogant claim to make.

And to impose the will of a minority is not democratic, at all.

You voted. The other countries can then decide what to do amongst themselves.

Heineken Helen

nobody wrote:

i still disagree with your claim that you voted in a more democratic way as other countries...

m.

well it looks like that's one thing we're not going to agree on... we've always had referendums... I think it's just fair to ask the people to decide if we want to change the constitution or not. You're used to not being consulted or trusting your politicians to decide for you. We're both used to a different system and think ours is the best...we're just going to have to let that one go.

lgt

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

So you ARE saying that size counts when it comes to vetoes.

Not saying size - just highlighting the fact that one country cannot stop the process for the majority of other countries, if they so wish to go ahead.

lgt

Heineken Helen wrote:

So that IS dismissing us... that's EXACTLY what it is.

Ya know what, I give up :( Europe can do whatever the hell it wants... cos that's one thing I'm learning from these treaties... it WILL!

Why is it dismissing you???

Europe will not impose further integration on Ireland, thereby respecting the wish of the Irish people.

Heineken Helen

lgt wrote:

It is NOT more democratic. A referendum or a vote through representative democracy are equally democratic.

Ireland is NOT more democratic than the other EU member states because of this referendum!

This is quite an arrogant claim to make.

And to impose the will of a minority is not democratic, at all.

You voted. The other countries can then decide what to do amongst themselves.

so what, you think we should have said 'well this is what we think but you lot just do what's good for you'. I feel like I'm banging my head off a brick wall. It's not my fault we had a veto... but that's what we voted on... that the Lisbon treaty will not go ahead... not just in Ireland... we were voting on a European treaty, not an Irish one.

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

Not even a DAY had gone by and they were already discussing how to completely fucking IGNORE US! :mad:

We were only useful as long as we were happy little yes-men. But as soon as we start trying to protect the constitution that's not even 50 years in effect... :(

nobody

Heineken Helen wrote:

I don't get what that proves

it shows that by electing a parliament popular oppinions are channeled into more productive opptions that can be used to reached a consensus. because popular oppinions are to a huge degree motivated by self-serving interests that are in their pure form not able to achieve anything on the level of state politics. sometimes (and I say sometimes) parliaments are ahead of (some of) the people...

m.

Heineken Helen

lgt wrote:

Why is it dismissing you???

Europe will not impose further integration on Ireland, thereby respecting the wish of the Irish people.

BUT... THAT'S NOT WHAT WE VOTED ON!

We did NOT vote for a two tier europe... we were asked if this treaty was good for europe, we decided it wasn't, and now they're going to go ahead? Stop changing the wording of what we were asked in the polls... cos it WASN'T whether europe should go ahead without us or not. We voted to ratify the treaty... we rejected it... it did not get unanimity which it needed... therefore it is dead! Legally BRAIN DEAD.

lgt

Heineken Helen wrote:

Again you mention the size of Ireland... that kinda disproves your point that all countries are respected in Europe.

Only mentioned it in the post, to highlight the issue of a minority imposing the will to a majority.

which is what you and Rhinocerus imply, by saying that Europe should respect the Irish vote by not moving further along with integration, because it would be disregarding Ireland.

Rhinocerous Surprise

lgt wrote:

Not saying size - just highlighting the fact that one country cannot stop the process for the majority of other countries, if they so wish to go ahead.

So what next? If another small country disagrees on something else in a year's time, will they have their own set of provisions? Until eventually, you've got 20 different EUs on the go?

nobody

lgt wrote:

It is NOT more democratic. A referendum or a vote through representative democracy are equally democratic.

Ireland is NOT more democratic than the other EU member states because of this referendum!

This is quite an arrogant claim to make.

And to impose the will of a minority is not democratic, at all.

You voted. The other countries can then decide what to do amongst themselves.

are you talking out of my head, or do I talk out of yours?

Heineken Helen

lgt wrote:

Only mentioned it in the post, to highlight the issue of a minority imposing the will to a majority.

which is what you and Rhinocerus imply, by saying that Europe should respect the Irish vote by not moving further along with integration, because it would be disregarding Ireland.

How hard is it to understand that what you, and most european leaders are now suggesting, IS ILLEGAL!

lgt

Heineken Helen wrote:

BUT... THAT'S NOT WHAT WE VOTED ON!

We did NOT vote for a two tier europe... we were asked if this treaty was good for europe, we decided it wasn't, and now they're going to go ahead? Stop changing the wording of what we were asked in the polls... cos it WASN'T whether europe should go ahead without us or not. We voted to ratify the treaty... we rejected it... it did not get unanimity which it needed... therefore it is dead! Legally BRAIN DEAD.

You voted against further integration [better decision-making procedures, etc.]

You said it wasn't good for Europe.

Europe can now decide to go ahead. Why shouldn't it??

The Lisbon Treaty is legally dead.

Politically it will still be alive. Other countries have still to have their say.

When all countries have voted [or their votes do not count??!] Europe [the Commission, the Council, i.e. the European government, the EU parliament] decide how to progress.

This most likely entail a two-speed Europe, which is already here, btw.

Britain and Norway are not in the eurozone - most evident example.

Why stop the party for the others??

This is what I truly don't get.

Ireland said no. The others should also say no?? And ignore their own aspirations??

lgt

Heineken Helen wrote:

How hard is it to understand that what you, and most european leaders are now suggesting, IS ILLEGAL!

It won't be the same Treaty Helen, therefore it will not be ILLEGAL.

lgt

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

So what next? If another small country disagrees on something else in a year's time, will they have their own set of provisions? Until eventually, you've got 20 different EUs on the go?

In the present scenario, where Lisbon is not valid, is a country - any country, big or small - they can veto any decision.

With qualified majority voting, which Lisbon advocated, any country can get together with other countries who support the same issue and make sure it goes through with MAJORITY VOTING.

Again, in a group of 27 this is more democratic.

Heineken Helen

lgt wrote:

It won't be the same Treaty Helen, therefore it will not be ILLEGAL.

ah yes, that's true... it will have a different name

nobody

Heineken Helen wrote:

well it looks like that's one thing we're not going to agree on... we've always had referendums... I think it's just fair to ask the people to decide if we want to change the constitution or not. You're used to not being consulted or trusting your politicians to decide for you. We're both used to a different system and think ours is the best...we're just going to have to let that one go.

i don't think one is better than the other. i think they are equally democratic. and there are referendums in germany.

maybe I am not so sceptical because germany is a federal state itself with 16 (3 of them only cities) different state parliaments. there is conflict, but it works.

and unlike the UK and US we don't have a two party system (not really sure about Ireland) so I'm used to coalitions, consensus, compromises and refraising of laws several times so that everyone can agree...

m.

Rhinocerous Surprise

lgt wrote:

In the present scenario, where Lisbon is not valid, is a country - any country, big or small - they can veto any decision.

With qualified majority voting, which Lisbon advocated, any country can get together with other countries who support the same issue and make sure it goes through with MAJORITY VOTING.

Again, in a group of 27 this is more democratic.

Apparently, vetoes don't count for much anyway. Instead of yes or no, the vote should have been yes or not just yet. :(

I don't see how a group of countries on the other side of Europe over-riding Ireland's sovereignty is a good thing. Maybe that's just me.

lgt

Heineken Helen wrote:

so what, you think we should have said 'well this is what we think but you lot just do what's good for you'. I feel like I'm banging my head off a brick wall. It's not my fault we had a veto... but that's what we voted on... that the Lisbon treaty will not go ahead... not just in Ireland... we were voting on a European treaty, not an Irish one.

Yes, you voted on a EU treaty.

But you cannot impose the will of one country on the rest of Europe.

The Lisbon Treaty is legally dead as it was posited on the approval of ALL member states. But POLITICALLY IT IS NOT.

If 26 out of 27 have approved it though, and there is a political will another treaty will emerge. Ireland can again decide to go along or not.

Europe will not impose further integration upon Ireland, but Ireland wants to impose no further integration for the rest of Europe, even if the rest of Europe wants it???