Nicolas Sarkozy plans to bypass Irish no vote

Rhinocerous Surprise

nobody wrote:

let me try and ask something...
this treaty dies, because of Irelands vote...after that several countries, many of which supported the treaty will decide to form something similiar to the outline in the treaty...others won't...

what problem exactly will you have with that?
it would rid you of many problems and some said that don't want to be part of the union anymore anyway...

m.

A two-tier Europe will be vetoed by lots of bigger countries, like Britain, and they'll be listened to. Cos they're bigger than us.

lgt

Heineken Helen wrote:

:( wow! And you're fine with that?

But Helen, are you fine with blocking what a majority of other countries want to do?!?

I don't get that. I mean, seriously.

One country decided via referendum that they don't want further integration. OK, fine.

[same as the UK, Norway, e.g. BTW, Greenland also left the EU but still receiving subsidies via Denmark so, there is a way out, which incidentally the Lisbon Treaty codified]

But why the others should stop if they want to progress with "ever closer union"? that would be undemocratic. To impose the will of one over 26.

BTW, "ever closer union" is in the Treaty of Rome, the founding Treaty of the European Coal and Steel Community, the forebear of the EU.

It was never just about economic integration. It was about peace and prosperity and "ever closer union"

Heineken Helen

nobody wrote:

let me try and ask something...
this treaty dies, because of Irelands vote...after that several countries, many of which supported the treaty will decide to form something similiar to the outline in the treaty...others won't...

what problem exactly will you have with that?
it would rid you of many problems and some said that don't want to be part of the union anymore anyway...

m.

I think it's time to stop and relax... what's the bloody hurry anyway? I think each government needs to talk to and listen to their people and find out what the problem is... why do people keep voting down these treatys in referendums? Until they listen to the people they cannot call themselves democratic.

Does ANYONE have a problem with taking a deep breath and a step back or is there a reason this has to be rushed through?

nobody

Heineken Helen wrote:

Yeh yeh, people keep pointing that out to us. I never said we as a country would have less power... my problem has ALWAYS been that the power will be even LESS in the hands of the people... citizens initiative my arse... that's all we'd be left with.

BTW, do you know Ireland always comes up close to tops in polls as to satisfaction rating regarding the EU. We love the EU, nobody wants to leave... but we certainly don't wanna join the USE... who said Germany lost the war eh? (and I'm sorry if you take offense at that... but you have to see we're coming from 2 different sides here... why do you think Germans seem to be PRO treaty?)

well, then don't join the USE. please believe me that i don't want to take that away from you...but if some contries want to, under a new treaty that won't affect you in any way whatsoever(except you believe they want to include you with force afterward or starve you economically), what's the problem?

m.

Specifics

lgt wrote:

whereas imposing the will of a minority would be preferable to negotiation and compromise of different interests??!!

No, i would just prefer it if governements kept their ideas a little smaller and let the people get on with making life. They are politicians, they are not wisemen or great philosophers, by their very nature, they are just people that want to be important.

Heineken Helen

lgt wrote:

But Helen, are you fine with blocking what a majority of other countries want to do?!?

Yes I am... cos that's the process. If it were Germany who blocked it, we'd just accept it. There would be NO talk of proceeding anyway... sure they might change the name, a few words, and deny the people the vote again... but they would not leave them out. Are YOU fine with us being outcasts now simply cos we made the choice? It's not our fault we have a veto...

Rhinocerous Surprise

lgt wrote:

But Helen, are you fine with blocking what a majority of other countries want to do?!?

I don't get that. I mean, seriously.

One country decided via referendum that they don't want further integration. OK, fine.

[same as the UK, Norway, e.g. BTW, Greenland also left the EU but still receiving subsidies via Denmark so, there is a way out, which incidentally the Lisbon Treaty codified]

But why the others should stop if they want to progress with "ever closer union"? that would be undemocratic. To impose the will of one over 26.

BTW, "ever closer union" is in the Treaty of Rome, the founding Treaty of the European Coal and Steel Community, the forebear of the EU.

It was never just about economic integration. It was about peace and prosperity and "ever closer union"

Three countries have shot this down. They just keep finding ways to resuscitate the corpse.

lgt

Heineken Helen wrote:

so we'll just ignore democracy to pass it?

Democracy is being exercised.

18 countries said yes.

1 said no.

More countries may say yes or no.

Those who say yes, even if just 18 are a majority.

The core founding member states will say yes [regardless of the right-wing Berlusconi government, the Italian parliament will ratify Lisbon.]

A way to move forward will be found.

Those who want to stay put will stay there. No one is saying anything.

But why preventing the others to move forward???

This is democratic??!

Heineken Helen

nobody wrote:

well, then don't join the USE. please believe me that i don't want to take that away from you...but if some contries want to, under a new treaty that won't affect you in any way whatsoever(except you believe they want to include you with force afterward or starve you economically), what's the problem?

m.

I would have no problem with that if they asked the fucking PEOPLE what they want :(

lgt

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

A two-tier Europe will be vetoed by lots of bigger countries, like Britain, and they'll be listened to. Cos they're bigger than us.

Not really.

Britain never wanted to be part of the eurozone.

Did that stop the other countries that wanted to move forward?

I believe Ireland went ahead on this issue too.

Rhinocerous Surprise

lgt wrote:

Democracy is being exercised.

18 countries said yes.

1 said no.

More countries may say yes or no.

Those who say yes, even if just 18 are a majority.

The core founding member states will say yes [regardless of the right-wing Berlusconi government, the Italian parliament will ratify Lisbon.]

A way to move forward will be found.

Those who want to stay put will stay there. No one is saying anything.

But why preventing the others to move forward???

This is democratic??!

How democratic is it to say vetoes only count when certain countries use them?

lgt

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Three countries have shot this down. They just keep finding ways to resuscitate the corpse.

You are FACTUALLY INCORRECT.

One country shot the Lisbon Treaty down.

If you refer to France and the Netherlands they voted against the European Constitution. Slightly different issue.

France voted yes to the Lisbon Treaty.

Rhinocerous Surprise

lgt wrote:

Not really.

Britain never wanted to be part of the eurozone.

Did that stop the other countries that wanted to move forward?

I believe Ireland went ahead on this issue too.

Britain wants to keep as much power as possible (Who can blame them in the current EU climate?). They' be on the second tier in the the two-speed EU, and that would mean less power. They'd never go for it.

nobody

Heineken Helen wrote:

It's not very funny at all :( and the weird thing is the words of the yes people are scaring the shit out of me. They talk about how undemocratic it all was so they're just going to call it something else and ignore our vote. And one wonders why I've been becoming more paranoid recently? The celebrations over the weekend were short lived. Sadly back to reality... back to fucking 1984! AND THE YES PEOPLE THINK WE'RE WRONG? We chose... we voted... we just voted the wrong way! This is seriously all wrong!

I like you, but you scare me too;)
believe me: it IS possible...

your vote is not ignored: there won't be any european rules imposed on Ireland. other countries want to get closer together. let them get closer together.

m.

Rhinocerous Surprise

lgt wrote:

You are FACTUALLY INCORRECT.

One country shot the Lisbon Treaty down.

If you refer to France and the Netherlands they voted against the European Constitution. Slightly different issue.

France voted yes to the Lisbon Treaty.

Very slightly. It's 96% the same content.

lgt

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

How democratic is it to say vetoes only count when certain countries use them?

Who's saying that?!?

Don't put words into my mouth please.

I'm saying one country has expressed their position.

Fine.

This will be taken into account and the new situation will be evaluated and the other countries will decide what to do.

And that can mean - most likely - move along with further integration, with Ireland out, as expressed in their vote.

lgt

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Very slightly. It's 96% the same content.

Where do you get that 96%?

So, if you know that France and Netherlands voted against the Constitution you should clarify that and not muddle your argument.

Heineken Helen

lgt wrote:

You are FACTUALLY INCORRECT.

One country shot the Lisbon Treaty down.

If you refer to France and the Netherlands they voted against the European Constitution. Slightly different issue.

France voted yes to the Lisbon Treaty.

I think the embolded word kinda sums it up!

A veto is still a veto... why was France and Holland's more important (let's pretend for now that the constitution was completely different) why did their veto mean the end of it?

Heineken Helen

nobody wrote:

I like you, but you scare me too;)
believe me: it IS possible...

your vote is not ignored: there won't be any european rules imposed on Ireland. other countries want to get closer together. let them get closer together.

m.

but that's not what we voted for... this was never a big issue before the election... that other countries would proceed. We voted AGAINST the treaty coming into effect... not against it coming into effect on US!

nobody

Heineken Helen wrote:

I would have no problem with that if they asked the fucking PEOPLE what they want :(

but they did. parliaments are the representatives of the people...
as I said a million times: referendums aren't in any way more democratic than decisions of representatives...

m.

Heineken Helen

lgt wrote:

This will be taken into account and the new situation will be evaluated and the other countries will decide what to do.

And that can mean - most likely - move along with further integration, with Ireland out, as expressed in their vote.

That's not what we were asked to vote on... AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Heineken Helen

nobody wrote:

but they did. parliaments are the representatives of the people...
as I said a million times: referendums aren't in any way more democratic than decisions of representatives...

m.

Hmmm... so why does poll after poll across europe suggest strongly that the parliaments (not just one) are not representing the wishes of their people?

Rhinocerous Surprise

lgt wrote:

Where do you get that 96%?

So, if you know that France and Netherlands voted against the Constitution you should clarify that and not muddle your argument.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7069181.stm

lgt

Heineken Helen wrote:

Yes I am... cos that's the process. If it were Germany who blocked it, we'd just accept it. There would be NO talk of proceeding anyway... sure they might change the name, a few words, and deny the people the vote again... but they would not leave them out. Are YOU fine with us being outcasts now simply cos we made the choice? It's not our fault we have a veto...

No, that's not the process.

They will not go ahead with Lisbon but with another Treaty - obviously similar to Lisbon, because the majority have voted for it.

Also, in 2005 France - one of the big member states - voted against the EU constitution [drafted by the way by one of their former presidents] but the political process still went ahead and that's why you have the Lisbon Treaty.

Even more so, now, when you have 27 member states. There won't be ANY decision-making in the EU with veto and no extension of qualified majority voting.

Also, I am not making Ireland an outcast. It's Ireland decision with their vote to say no to further EU integration. So, your country must leave with the consequences of this decision, whatever those may be.

lgt

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7069181.stm

That article doesn't refer to 96%.

nobody

Heineken Helen wrote:

I think the embolded word kinda sums it up!

A veto is still a veto... why was France and Holland's more important (let's pretend for now that the constitution was completely different) why did their veto mean the end of it?

well it wasn't the end of it (the process), was it?
everybody got back together and decided on a way to proceed. just as it will happen now...

m.

lgt

Heineken Helen wrote:

I think the embolded word kinda sums it up!

A veto is still a veto... why was France and Holland's more important (let's pretend for now that the constitution was completely different) why did their veto mean the end of it?

It was NOT the end of it!

Ask Rhinocerous Surprise

Specifics

nobody wrote:

I like you, but you scare me too;)
believe me: it IS possible...

your vote is not ignored: there won't be any european rules imposed on Ireland. other countries want to get closer together. let them get closer together.

m.

woah you do make me shiver man...

lgt

nobody wrote:

well it wasn't the end of it (the process), was it?
everybody got back together and decided on a way to proceed. just as it will happen now...

m.

EXACTLY

no one is dismissing Irleand or their vote.

On the other hand, you cannot pretend for one country to stop the process of European integration.

It just won't happen if there is a majority of member states willing to press on.

Rhinocerous Surprise

lgt wrote:

No, that's not the process.

They will not go ahead with Lisbon but with another Treaty - obviously similar to Lisbon, because the majority have voted for it.

Also, in 2005 France - one of the big member states - voted against the EU constitution [drafted by the way by one of their former presidents] but the political process still went ahead and that's why you have the Lisbon Treaty.

Even more so, now, when you have 27 member states. There won't be ANY decision-making in the EU with veto and no extension of qualified majority voting.

Also, I am not making Ireland an outcast. It's Ireland decision with their vote to say no to further EU integration. So, your country must leave with the consequences of this decision, whatever those may be.

Were France told they were going to be left aside? That the EU would just go on without them? No - but Ireland is getting that treatment.