Put Away the Flags

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  • Heineken HelenHeineken Helen Posts: 18,095
    This has to got be one of the most dysfunctional families ever!
    :D:p
    Lol, ya haven't met mine :p

    But yeh, it's great, isn't it? :)
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • PaperPlatesPaperPlates Posts: 1,745
    El_Kabong wrote:
    again; the difference is you are comparing history to current events no one can change the past, obviously

    glad you can be proud of all that comsumerism at the expense of a couple million lives in the past 2 decades...phew, at least you have your priorities straight, man! enjoy a big mac while you kick back in your comfy chair and watch superman. i'm sure the rest of the world will understand it's what's needed
    El_Kabong wrote:
    krispy kreme probably hasn't done anything on a global scale, does that mean GE didn't sell munitions to Hitler even after we got involved?

    Well Im glad you're not hung up in history, and focused on the here and now.


    Btw, you bring up the US's past transgressions more often than you apparently know. Its a theme with you. So dont tell others not to compare history with current events. You sir, have the two terribly intermingled in your head.
    Why go home

    www.myspace.com/jensvad
  • indeed it was. but typically a bunch of booze addled chest thumping idiot anglo australians defending 'their' turf. mistakes were made by both sides. but mostly the inaction of the police force was to blame for the situation getting out of hand. as well as the shock jock media bent on stirring up a hornet's nest all for ratings.
    this is true...Alan Jones amongst others had a field day. I guess the only good thing is that such an even is extremely rare in Australia.




    [/quote]....when we all get together and celebrate our greatest military defeat under the guise of national pride, mateship and self-sacrifice.[/quote]
    Yep Winston Churchill caused the death of thousands of English, Australians and Kiwis for no good reason.
    The wind is blowing cold
    Have we lost our way tonight?
    Have we lost our hope to sorrow?

    Feels like were all alone
    Running further from what’s right
    And there are no more heroes to follow

    So what are we becoming?
    Where did we go wrong?
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,554
    http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0703-29.htm

    Published on Monday, July 3, 2006 by the Progressive
    Put Away the Flags
    by Howard Zinn

    On this July 4, we would do well to renounce nationalism and all its symbols: its flags, its pledges of allegiance, its anthems, its insistence in song that God must single out America to be blessed.

    Is not nationalism -- that devotion to a flag, an anthem, a boundary so fierce it engenders mass murder -- one of the great evils of our time, along with racism, along with religious hatred?

    These ways of thinking -- cultivated, nurtured, indoctrinated from childhood on -- have been useful to those in power, and deadly for those out of power.

    National spirit can be benign in a country that is small and lacking both in military power and a hunger for expansion (Switzerland, Norway, Costa Rica and many more). But in a nation like ours -- huge, possessing thousands of weapons of mass destruction -- what might have been harmless pride becomes an arrogant nationalism dangerous to others and to ourselves.

    Our citizenry has been brought up to see our nation as different from others, an exception in the world, uniquely moral, expanding into other lands in order to bring civilization, liberty, democracy.

    That self-deception started early.

    When the first English settlers moved into Indian land in Massachusetts Bay and were resisted, the violence escalated into war with the Pequot Indians. The killing of Indians was seen as approved by God, the taking of land as commanded by the Bible. The Puritans cited one of the Psalms, which says: "Ask of me, and I shall give thee, the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the Earth for thy possession."

    When the English set fire to a Pequot village and massacred men, women and children, the Puritan theologian Cotton Mather said: "It was supposed that no less than 600 Pequot souls were brought down to hell that day."

    On the eve of the Mexican War, an American journalist declared it our "Manifest Destiny to overspread the continent allotted by Providence." After the invasion of Mexico began, The New York Herald announced: "We believe it is a part of our destiny to civilize that beautiful country."

    It was always supposedly for benign purposes that our country went to war.

    We invaded Cuba in 1898 to liberate the Cubans, and went to war in the Philippines shortly after, as President McKinley put it, "to civilize and Christianize" the Filipino people.

    As our armies were committing massacres in the Philippines (at least 600,000 Filipinos died in a few years of conflict), Elihu Root, our secretary of war, was saying: "The American soldier is different from all other soldiers of all other countries since the war began. He is the advance guard of liberty and justice, of law and order, and of peace and happiness."

    We see in Iraq that our soldiers are not different. They have, perhaps against their better nature, killed thousands of Iraq civilians. And some soldiers have shown themselves capable of brutality, of torture.

    Yet they are victims, too, of our government's lies.

    How many times have we heard President Bush and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld tell the troops that if they die, if they return without arms or legs, or blinded, it is for "liberty," for "democracy"?

    One of the effects of nationalist thinking is a loss of a sense of proportion. The killing of 2,300 people at Pearl Harbor becomes the justification for killing 240,000 in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The killing of 3,000 people on Sept. 11 becomes the justification for killing tens of thousands of people in Afghanistan and Iraq.

    And nationalism is given a special virulence when it is said to be blessed by Providence. Today we have a president, invading two countries in four years, who announced on the campaign trail last year that God speaks through him.

    We need to refute the idea that our nation is different from, morally superior to, the other imperial powers of world history.

    We need to assert our allegiance to the human race, and not to any one nation.


    I just saw this thread and I agree with this article wholeheartedly. Nationalism is stupid....
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,118

    We need to assert our allegiance to the human race, and not to any one nation.


    thank you for the article... i love Zinn :)
  • Eliot RosewaterEliot Rosewater Posts: 2,684
    Howard Zinn has been my hero for many years, but it wasn't until maybe a year ago that I realized how detrimental nationalism really is. People are people. We're no different here in America than anywhere else in the world and the sooner we can figure that out and indoctrinate the golden rule into our lives the sooner we will be held accountable for our evil ways. The pledge of allegiance is absolutely ludicrous and very Hitleresque. Our children are being lied to in history class and when they're being raised to believe that we are some kind of moral superhero they have no reasons to doubt the history books.

    Anyone who's familiar with Zinn knows better. He truly is a world leader and hero.
  • LazLaz Posts: 118
    what happened to freedom of expression? is not flag waving, as hated as it may be, a right guaranteed by the Constitution?
  • Eliot RosewaterEliot Rosewater Posts: 2,684
    Laz wrote:
    what happened to freedom of expression? is not flag waving, as hated as it may be, a right guaranteed by the Constitution?
    It absolutely is. But it helps to know what you're supporting by waving that flag. I believe Zinn is educating people on what it really means and stands for. The American flag stands for anything but Freedom these days.
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,118
    Laz wrote:
    what happened to freedom of expression? is not flag waving, as hated as it may be, a right guaranteed by the Constitution?


    you didnt read the article i am guessing
  • LazLaz Posts: 118
    my2hands wrote:
    you didnt read the article i am guessing


    guilty as charged... learned my lesson, will read article :)
  • LazLaz Posts: 118
    read the article this time... whether or not this nation is 'morally superior' is a call (if any is to be made at all) for someone far more qualified than I; however I wonder if Mr. Zinn appreciates the fact that he can write articles like this without fear of incarceration or execution, in a country as oppressive and hell bent on nationalism as the US of A.
  • moeaholicmoeaholic Posts: 536
    It absolutely is. But it helps to know what you're supporting by waving that flag. I believe Zinn is educating people on what it really means and stands for. The American flag stands for anything but Freedom these days.

    just because you and zinn feel our flag stands for "anything but freedom" doesn't mean everyone else feels that way. if you don't want to display the flag of your country, then don't display it. big deal, it doesn't hurt me. but if i want to proudly fly my flag, don't shit all over me because of it.
    "PC Load Letter?! What the fuck does that mean?"
    ~Michael Bolton
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    Laz wrote:
    what happened to freedom of expression? is not flag waving, as hated as it may be, a right guaranteed by the Constitution?

    he didn't say 'you better not', he said 'i think it's misguided and here's why...'
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    Well Im glad you're not hung up in history, and focused on the here and now.


    Btw, you bring up the US's past transgressions more often than you apparently know. Its a theme with you. So dont tell others not to compare history with current events. You sir, have the two terribly intermingled in your head.


    how far back are you going to be considered 'past transgressions'? b/c i think even 2 decades should be brought up, especially considering it involved ppl like cheney, rumsfeld, wolfowitz, perle...

    also i think ppl need to know their history, especially the bad, b/c of the old cliche 'those who ignore the past are doomed to repeat it' it was also help w/ the shell shock a lot of americans have and misunderstanding when they discover a lot of the world dislikes the country.
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    El_Kabong wrote:
    how far back are you going to be considered 'past transgressions'? b/c i think even 2 decades should be brought up, especially considering it involved ppl like cheney, rumsfeld, wolfowitz, perle...

    also i think ppl need to know their history, especially the bad, b/c of the old cliche 'those who ignore the past are doomed to repeat it' it was also help w/ the shell shock a lot of americans have and misunderstanding when they discover a lot of the world dislikes the country.

    Yeah...its people who forget our history that allow us to make the same mistakes.

    When history holds certain patterns-such as definite proof of US expansionism-all actions should be carefully watched-especially the media. If we only had a free pres...
    There's plenty for all.

    You can either repeat conventional platitudes or else sound like you're from Neptune. -chomsky


    The weight of the world don't seem so bad...


    I love you Cate. always will.
  • Eliot RosewaterEliot Rosewater Posts: 2,684
    moeaholic wrote:
    just because you and zinn feel our flag stands for "anything but freedom" doesn't mean everyone else feels that way. if you don't want to display the flag of your country, then don't display it. big deal, it doesn't hurt me. but if i want to proudly fly my flag, don't shit all over me because of it.
    lmao...Moe, I certainly won't shit all over you if you fly your flag. After dubya draped himself in the flag for some speech yesterday, I think it's clear what he want us to believe the flag stands for. He thinks it stands for his imperialistic ways. I refuse to support that. I won't condemn anyone for flying a flag, but I do feel the need to voice my opinion because flying a flag does not mean you support our country. I'm more apt to burn the fucking thing in support of our country and how it was meant to be governed. But, to each his own. Fly it or don't fly it....It's my sincere hope that someday the American flag will stand for more than blood and war, and that it will someday stand for more than spreading a false belief in democracy with the underlying yet very clear motive of fueling and expounding the evil and corrupt American empire.
  • decides2dreamdecides2dream Posts: 14,928
    lmao...Moe, I certainly won't shit all over you if you fly your flag. After dubya draped himself in the flag for some speech yesterday, I think it's clear what he want us to believe the flag stands for. He thinks it stands for his imperialistic ways. I refuse to support that. I won't condemn anyone for flying a flag, but I do feel the need to voice my opinion because flying a flag does not mean you support our country. I'm more apt to burn the fucking thing in support of our country and how it was meant to be governed. But, to each his own. Fly it or don't fly it....It's my sincere hope that someday the American flag will stand for more than blood and war, and that it will someday stand for more than spreading a false belief in democracy with the underlying yet very clear motive of fueling and expounding the evil and corrupt American empire.


    ya know what..i say feck dubya, why should he be able to lay claim to a national symbol? he doesn't own it....he doesn't get to decide what it means. so hell yeah...i display my flag for MY beliefs...and i don't give a shite if dubya or anyone else tried to hijack it, i look at it as a symbol in it's pure form....and it's a personal choice to make. i say, i refuse to allow others to hijack something that was meant to symbolize the good ideals this country was founded on.
    Stay with me...
    Let's just breathe...


  • moeaholicmoeaholic Posts: 536
    It's my sincere hope that someday the American flag will stand for more than blood and war, and that it will someday stand for more than spreading a false belief in democracy with the underlying yet very clear motive of fueling and expounding the evil and corrupt American empire.

    see, i don't look at the flag and think of politicians. i look at the flag and think of the history of the people that made this country what it is. for one day, just for one day out of the year, is it that difficult for people to do? put the political bickering to the side and honor the country that was made by the citizens? just one day. it's not even 24 hours. if you sleep till noon, it's a half day. honestly, it breaks my heart to see people write some of the things i've seen around here. they're ashamed of their country. they're embarrassed of their country. they're on the brink of moving out of the country because of the shame they have. don't be ashamed of your country, be proud of it. be proud of your heritage in this country. there are 364 other days in the year for people to voice their hatred for everything wrong with this country. can't people take a day off? there are people i work with that i absolutely can't stand, but every year on their birthday i wish them a happy one.
    "PC Load Letter?! What the fuck does that mean?"
    ~Michael Bolton
  • Eliot RosewaterEliot Rosewater Posts: 2,684
    moeaholic wrote:
    see, i don't look at the flag and think of politicians. i look at the flag and think of the history of the people that made this country what it is. for one day, just for one day out of the year, is it that difficult for people to do? put the political bickering to the side and honor the country that was made by the citizens? just one day. it's not even 24 hours. if you sleep till noon, it's a half day. honestly, it breaks my heart to see people write some of the things i've seen around here. they're ashamed of their country. they're embarrassed of their country. they're on the brink of moving out of the country because of the shame they have. don't be ashamed of your country, be proud of it. be proud of your heritage in this country. there are 364 other days in the year for people to voice their hatred for everything wrong with this country. can't people take a day off? there are people i work with that i absolutely can't stand, but every year on their birthday i wish them a happy one.
    Great post, Moe. You made a great point and I'm glad you did. It seems only fair to celebrate the good on the anniversary of independence. But that's all your getting, damnit! One day! And then it's back to fighting for what's right and fighting for the day we can realize the dream that our founding fathers intending this country to be.
  • moeaholicmoeaholic Posts: 536
    Great post, Moe. You made a great point and I'm glad you did. It seems only fair to celebrate the good on the anniversary of independence. But that's all your getting, damnit! One day! And then it's back to fighting for what's right and fighting for the day we can realize the dream that our founding fathers intending this country to be.

    thanks, man. and i'll defend your right to protest and all that stuff. even if i don't agree with you on everything ;)
    "PC Load Letter?! What the fuck does that mean?"
    ~Michael Bolton
  • decides2dreamdecides2dream Posts: 14,928
    Great post, Moe. You made a great point and I'm glad you did. It seems only fair to celebrate the good on the anniversary of independence. But that's all your getting, damnit! One day! And then it's back to fighting for what's right and fighting for the day we can realize the dream that our founding fathers intending this country to be.

    agreed. :)
    funny too, a new thread today on one of zinn's articles...and i really liked what it had to say about the declaration of independence and what is a patriot...one who upholds the ideals, not the governemnt...and it actually made me think of this thread/issue...it's kinda how i view celebrating independence day and displaying the flag on such a holiday.
    Stay with me...
    Let's just breathe...


  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    moeaholic wrote:
    see, i don't look at the flag and think of politicians. i look at the flag and think of the history of the people that made this country what it is. for one day, just for one day out of the year, is it that difficult for people to do? put the political bickering to the side and honor the country that was made by the citizens? just one day. it's not even 24 hours. if you sleep till noon, it's a half day. honestly, it breaks my heart to see people write some of the things i've seen around here. they're ashamed of their country. they're embarrassed of their country. they're on the brink of moving out of the country because of the shame they have. don't be ashamed of your country, be proud of it. be proud of your heritage in this country. there are 364 other days in the year for people to voice their hatred for everything wrong with this country. can't people take a day off? there are people i work with that i absolutely can't stand, but every year on their birthday i wish them a happy one.


    fair enough...good post man. Take a few hours to celebrate the good.
    There's plenty for all.

    You can either repeat conventional platitudes or else sound like you're from Neptune. -chomsky


    The weight of the world don't seem so bad...


    I love you Cate. always will.
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    agreed. :)
    funny too, a new thread today on one of zinn's articles...and i really liked what it had to say about the declaration of independence and what is a patriot...one who upholds the ideals, not the governemnt...and it actually made me think of this thread/issue...it's kinda how i view celebrating independence day and displaying the flag on such a holiday.


    flying a flag does absolutely nothing to uphold the ideals of this country. just look at the typical person who flies one or has a magnet on their car...shrugs their shoulders and quietly looks the other way or just flips on american idol while more and more of our rights are taken from us in the name of 'protection'. they do nothing to actually change things, they probably never even voted outside the 2 parties (plz keep in mind i am generalizing, not being all encompassing)

    and as the other zinn article state, in the words of Mark Twain:
    We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had -- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it, all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • The day the American society takes the time out their busy consuming to actually uphold the ideals this country was founded upon then I will proudly fly our flag. All I can see it as now is arrogance....maybe one day it will mean something to me again.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,118
    DUCK!

    incoming north korean nuke...


    oops, sorry... it was a large bird... my bad ;)
  • decides2dreamdecides2dream Posts: 14,928
    El_Kabong wrote:
    flying a flag does absolutely nothing to uphold the ideals of this country. just look at the typical person who flies one or has a magnet on their car...shrugs their shoulders and quietly looks the other way or just flips on american idol while more and more of our rights are taken from us in the name of 'protection'. they do nothing to actually change things, they probably never even voted outside the 2 parties (plz keep in mind i am generalizing, not being all encompassing)

    and as the other zinn article state, in the words of Mark Twain:
    We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had -- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it, all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.

    did i say it did?
    nope.
    i don't even pretend to know for certain what others think/feel simply b/c they slap a flag or a sticker on their car...i actually wait to meet them before even hazarding a guess...so i have nothing to add there.

    i said for many of us, it's a symbol of the ideals. if it's not for you, fine.
    and yea thanks...i read that just fine the first time. i am making my own parallels.....as we all may do from whatever we read/listen/watch. it just struck me in that sense.

    btw - never suggested one can't/shouldn't oppose the flag if they so desire. i think in my first post on this thread in fact i offered my full support for flag-burning.

    it's all perspective. sure, events are what they are...i am not denying ANY of our grotesque/misguided/wrong acts...i am also not discounting the good done either. feel free to focus on what you desire, wasn't even suggesting otherwise. a country is a sum of its parts, both good and bad...and while i am displeased to put it mildly where we are...i refuse to not acknowledge the good that does/can/has existed too. nothing more.

    so if choose to perceive flying my flag as a sign of support to the ideals of this country, tis my personal perogative, as it is yours or anyone else's to think and do otherwise. i never said the act of flying a flag actually makes a bit of difference.
    Stay with me...
    Let's just breathe...


  • did i say it did?
    nope.
    i don't even pretend to know for certain what others think/feel simply b/c they slap a flag or a sticker on their car...i actually wait to meet them before even hazarding a guess...so i have nothing to add there.

    i said for many of us, it's a symbol of the ideals. if it's not for you, fine.
    and yea thanks...i read that just fine the first time. i am making my own parallels.....as we all may do from whatever we read/listen/watch. it just struck me in that sense.

    btw - never suggested one can't/shouldn't oppose the flag if they so desire. i think in my first post on this thread in fact i offered my full support for flag-burning.

    it's all perspective. sure, events are what they are...i am not denying ANY of our grotesque/misguided/wrong acts...i am also not discounting the good done either. feel free to focus on what you desire, wasn't even suggesting otherwise. a country is a sum of its parts, both good and bad...and while i am displeased to put it mildly where we are...i refuse to not acknowledge the good that does/can/has existed too. nothing more.

    so if choose to perceive flying my flag as a sign of support to the ideals of this country, tis my personal perogative, as it is yours or anyone else's to think and do otherwise. i never said the act of flying a flag actually makes a bit of difference.

    it's called point/counter point...it's what we do here. we discuss each others views on things.

    no one has suggested you have to follow any of the views posted.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • decides2dreamdecides2dream Posts: 14,928
    it's called point/counter point...it's what we do here. we discuss each others views on things.

    no one has suggested you have to follow any of the views posted.

    well thanks for pointing that out. :)

    thought i was doing the same.
    i enjoy the condescension though, its a sweet touch. enjoy!
    Stay with me...
    Let's just breathe...


  • well thanks for pointing that out. :)

    thought i was doing the same.
    i enjoy the condescension though, its a sweet touch. enjoy!

    Just sensed a bit of over defensiveness is all. I must have been completely wrong.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,118
    now shake hands ladies :D
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