Does the flag not represent the suffrage movement for women, the emancipation proclamation, allowing immigrants to come here and better their lives? Does it not stand for those things anymore? What about the endless list of other positives about America?
I don't think the flag ever stood for the suffrage movement. When America was founded, when that flag was created, women were excluded. "All men" were created equal. Not women. Only white men were created equal. "America" did not fight for suffrage. These women did, and this is the flag:
I am both proud and ashamed to be an American, just as I am both proud and ashamed (usually involves alcohol) of my actions at times. I agree that refusing to fly our countries flag does not solve anything, nor does it solve anything by displaying it with pride. Zinn points out American arrogance, and that is something I think we all can agree exists on a very scary level. We are taught by the people in power that we are "the best", that we are superior to everyone, and that we have higher moral standards/beliefs. Educated people know this isn't true, that it's a corrupt society we live in. But if the less informed don't see this reality, then they just go on fueling the arrogance by raising their children with the same beliefs. Thus building the corporate American crescendo into filling their pockets even more.
10-08-00 Ice Bowl
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05-17-06 Chicago
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07-23-06 The Gorge
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09-03-11 PJ20
09-04-11 PJ20
09-21-12 Pensicola
09-22-12 Atlanta
I am both proud and ashamed to be an American, just as I am both proud and ashamed (usually involves alcohol) of my actions at times. I agree that refusing to fly our countries flag does not solve anything, nor does it solve anything by displaying it with pride. Zinn points out American arrogance, and that is something I think we all can agree exists on a very scary level. We are taught by the people in power that we are "the best", that we are superior to everyone, and that we have higher moral standards/beliefs. Educated people know this isn't true, that it's a corrupt society we live in. But if the less informed don't see this reality, then they just go on fueling the arrogance by raising their children with the same beliefs. Thus building the corporate American crescendo into filling their pockets even more.
well said.
i think it's healthy to feel this way....to realize the shortcomings along with the successes. i also fail to see how if one has not reached 'perfection'....that i cannot enjoy or celebrate the good that does exist. lots of room for improvement, lots to work on.....but it doesn't mean we're an abysmal failure or should be so ashamed of ourselves either. eh well, to me....it's a national holiday, celebration a point in history....nothing wrong with that. i simply believe there is a middle ground.
hope everyone enjoyed their day...weather was rather bad here...so instead of a bbq...we went to our fave local mexican place.
personally, i think one can fully support change, be a patriot...and sure...embrace a national symbol...nothing wrong with that. it's all what you choose to focus on, is it a symbol that has anything positive in it for you or not....it's all personal perspective on it. i think a symbol's power lies in what you see within it. if all you see is negative, well of course then...why would you ever embrace it? obviously, some of us still something positve within the symbol, and are happy enough to display it. it 'solves' nothing either way, and flying a flag or not flying a flag on a national holiday....i don't necessarily see either choice as representation of any particular set of beliefs, or any one particular statement.
well said.
i think it's healthy to feel this way....to realize the shortcomings along with the successes. i also fail to see how if one has not reached 'perfection'....that i cannot enjoy or celebrate the good that does exist. lots of room for improvement, lots to work on.....but it doesn't mean we're an abysmal failure or should be so ashamed of ourselves either. eh well, to me....it's a national holiday, celebration a point in history....nothing wrong with that. i simply believe there is a middle ground.
hope everyone enjoyed their day...weather was rather bad here...so instead of a bbq...we went to our fave local mexican place.
personally, i think one can fully support change, be a patriot...and sure...embrace a national symbol...nothing wrong with that. it's all what you choose to focus on, is it a symbol that has anything positive in it for you or not....it's all personal perspective on it. i think a symbol's power lies in what you see within it. if all you see is negative, well of course then...why would you ever embrace it? obviously, some of us still something positve within the symbol, and are happy enough to display it. it 'solves' nothing either way, and flying a flag or not flying a flag on a national holiday....i don't necessarily see either choice as representation of any particular set of beliefs, or any one particular statement.
The problem is where so many arrogantly display their flag and refuse to acknowledge the role the US is playing in the world and the repercussions of our imperialism. I think one should know and think about exactly what they are celebrating and having pride in. There are plenty of things I am proud of in this country, none of them have to do with a flag. Maybe when I see us as a WHOLE moving in the right direction and producing some progress, then I could understand more of this pride. Alot of the stories out there make me feel more embarrassed than proud. When I start reading more articles about the good we are doing around the world on a consistant basis...then maybe I'll consider flying our flag.
.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
The problem is where so many arrogantly display their flag and refuse to acknowledge the role the US is playing in the world and the repercussions of our imperialism. I think one should know and think about exactly what they are celebrating and having pride in. There are plenty of things I am proud of in this country, none of them have to do with a flag. Maybe when I see us as a WHOLE moving in the right direction and producing some progress, then I could understand more of this pride. Alot of the stories out there make me feel more embarrassed than proud. When I start reading more articles about the good we are doing around the world on a consistant basis...then maybe I'll consider flying our flag.
.
Go light a joint and shut the fuck up.
Of course you read about more good than bad. It's what sells. It's what people are attracted to.
You are the uneducated if you think more bad than good comes out of America. It means you simply read CNN and call it a day.
The problem is where so many arrogantly display their flag and refuse to acknowledge the role the US is playing in the world and the repercussions of our imperialism. I think one should know and think about exactly what they are celebrating and having pride in. There are plenty of things I am proud of in this country, none of them have to do with a flag. Maybe when I see us as a WHOLE moving in the right direction and producing some progress, then I could understand more of this pride. Alot of the stories out there make me feel more embarrassed than proud. When I start reading more articles about the good we are doing around the world on a consistant basis...then maybe I'll consider flying our flag.
.
i fully agree. there is much arrogance, i think i used that term yesterday in one of my first posts in fact. however, i think it is possible to exhibit patriotism w/o arrogance as well. nothing i am proud of has anything to do with the flag, i choose to display my flag for reasons related to things i am proud of...thus why i think it's impossible to truly decipher why, or why not...one chooses to display a flag...it's not any one thing. some may do it for blind arrogance, we're the 'best' attitude...but others may do it in honor, in memoriam...as a sign of still caring despite the issues, etc. i'd love to see as as a WHOLE moving in the rigth direction...however i think it's far easier to identify the wrong direction we've been moving in, then what is truly the 'right' way...so yea, i choose to celebrate the smaller goods.....simply b/c i far rather see some good and enjoy that than all bad.
Of course you read about more good than bad. It's what sells. It's what people are attracted to.
You are the uneducated if you think more bad than good comes out of America. It means you simply read CNN and call it a day.
Sorry to break it to ya but #1. I don't smoke #2. I don't watch or read CNN hardly ever. #3. It seems like you're the one who might need an anger management class or two and then move on to some maturity lessons before you try to gauge the level of my education, troll.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Of course you read about more good than bad. It's what sells. It's what people are attracted to.
You are the uneducated if you think more bad than good comes out of America. It means you simply read CNN and call it a day.
Please don't talk to her that way. I disagree with a majority of her views too...but I think it's better to address the issues at hand instead of cursing at someone.
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Please don't talk to her that way. I disagree with a majority of her views too...but I think it's better to address the issues at hand instead of cursing at someone.
Since when is that the policy on this board? Only when everyone agrees on cursing at some one is it allowed?
Please don't talk to her that way. I disagree with a majority of her views too...but I think it's better to address the issues at hand instead of cursing at someone.
Well thank you Shawn It took us a while but we finally learned how to reply to one another without snapping the others head off. And it's much better this way.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
read the sticky at the top of the page oh master of education
Sound advice. The education begins.
10-08-00 Ice Bowl
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09-22-12 Atlanta
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Well thank you Shawn It took us a while but we finally learned how to reply to one another without snapping the others head off. And it's much better this way.
You're very welcome. And yes, it is much better this way. Besides...we're like family. If someone is gonna snap one of our heads off around here, by God, it's gonna be one of us...not someone from the outside, lol!!! :D:D
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I ask myself that question a lot. Basically, my friends and immediate family keep me here. And relocating to another continent is kinda expensive, I bet.
Plus, it could be a lot worse. I appreciate the freedoms I have. I'm also glad I live in Massachusetts. I think postives outweigh the negatives in this state. If only New England would secede from the union.
Since when is that the policy on this board? Only when everyone agrees on cursing at some one is it allowed?
Give me a break.
She needs an education.
(and apparently a life...5600+ posts)
While I have broken that policy many times on this board, it actually IS the policy of the board. Please just stick to the issues and debate her on the merits of her post. We don't need this thread locked down. It's an interesting topic.
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to books original idea.. I think flags are kind of dumb. They symbolize pride, something most people have a hard time swallowing.. but if someone wants to hang one, I could careless...
My White Sox flag will stay high and proud however, letting Cubs fans know that I'm better and they suck. :cool:
I ask myself that question a lot. Basically, my friends and immediate family keep me here. And relocating to another continent is kinda expensive, I bet.
Plus, it could be a lot worse. I appreciate the freedoms I have. I'm also glad I live in Massachusetts. I think postives outweigh the negatives in this state. If only New England would secede from the union.
Just so you know, I read your earlier post, and I do understand where you're coming from...and also where Mr. Zinn is coming from. I don't agree with his point, but I do understand it. As usual, you have managed to reign me back in and think things through instead of continuing to lash out. Thank you. Happy 4th of July.
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While I have broken that policy many times on this board, it actually IS the policy of the board. Please just stick to the issues and debate her on the merits of her post. We don't need this thread locked down. It's an interesting topic.
yes, i think we would be better off
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
oh that's not crime. it's kicking against the pricks who hold us down.
and lets not forget the lebanese vs aussie riots that occured quite recently.....LOL what a sad, sad day.....
i don't really understand the almost self-loathing of the u.s some have on this board but i do respect the fact abook and others are not going to take pride in something they are not proud of. better to be like that then to be a ted nugent or britney spears. here down under we don't really get into national pride unless it happens to be following the wallabies or the socceroos. that only changes on ANZAC day....
The wind is blowing cold
Have we lost our way tonight?
Have we lost our hope to sorrow?
Feels like were all alone
Running further from what’s right
And there are no more heroes to follow
You're very welcome. And yes, it is much better this way. Besides...we're like family. If someone is gonna snap one of our heads off around here, by God, it's gonna be one of us...not someone from the outside, lol!!! :D:D
This has to got be one of the most dysfunctional families ever!
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Plus, it could be a lot worse. I appreciate the freedoms I have. I'm also glad I live in Massachusetts. I think postives outweigh the negatives in this state. If only New England would secede from the union.
New England + New York!
Although I have quite a soft spot for the PNW, but I got to go with where I'm at!
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
You're very welcome. And yes, it is much better this way. Besides...we're like family. If someone is gonna snap one of our heads off around here, by God, it's gonna be one of us...not someone from the outside, lol!!! :D:D
Although I have quite a soft spot for the PNW, but I got to go with where I'm at!
I know your being humorous but its kind of funny on a thread about national pride not being a good thing, that people are putting their state or regional pride on display. New York City is more or less the financial capital of the world and the corporations it houses benefit as much or more than anyone, because of many of the various reasons decryed on this thread as a bad thing.
I know your being humorous but its kind of funny on a thread about national pride not being a good thing, that people are putting their state or regional pride on display. New York City is more or less the financial capital of the world and the corporations it houses benefit as much or more than anyone, because of many of the various reasons decryed on this thread as a bad thing.
Well then it's funny all around, isn't it?
But really, it's about breaking away--I think that's the key. And NY isn't just the financial capital, but also offers some really good cheese. God, I'm a sucker for cheese. Oh a nice NYS cheddar . . .
And let's not forget the pizza, god I love white pie . . . and the bagels . . . and the franks and kraut . . . and the, oh man I'm hungry.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
But really, it's about breaking away--I think that's the key. And NY isn't just the financial capital, but also offers some really good cheese. God, I'm a sucker for cheese. Oh a nice NYS cheddar . . .
And let's not forget the pizza, god I love white pie . . . and the bagels . . . and the franks and kraut . . . and the, oh man I'm hungry.
Well like I said, I know you were being funny so dont take it as picking on ya by any means, just found your post kind of funny within the context of the thread. But in saying that and with regards to the thread in general. I see nothing wrong with being proud of your country, state, city or whatever. Its not the pride that is hurtful, and putting away a flag is going to solve exactly zero problems world wide. What is hurtful is when you use your position in life to take advantage of those less fortunate. Its greed, not pride, that causes the problems Zinn is referring to. So I cant say I agree with Zinn on this and quite frankly think he is off base.
and lets not forget the lebanese vs aussie riots that occured quite recently.....LOL what a sad, sad day.....
indeed it was. but typically a bunch of booze addled chest thumping idiot anglo australians defending 'their' turf. mistakes were made by both sides. but mostly the inaction of the police force was to blame for the situation getting out of hand. as well as the shock jock media bent on stirring up a hornet's nest all for ratings.
here down under we don't really get into national pride unless it happens to be following the wallabies or the socceroos. that only changes on ANZAC day....
....when we all get together and celebrate our greatest military defeat under the guise of national pride, mateship and self-sacrifice.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
And NY isn't just the financial capital, but also offers some really good cheese. God, I'm a sucker for cheese. Oh a nice NYS cheddar . . .
Wave the flag of the Green Bay Packers, our new symbol of American pride. Sorry, any reference of cheese and I just can't help myself.
10-08-00 Ice Bowl
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05-17-06 Chicago
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Comments
I don't think the flag ever stood for the suffrage movement. When America was founded, when that flag was created, women were excluded. "All men" were created equal. Not women. Only white men were created equal. "America" did not fight for suffrage. These women did, and this is the flag:
http://pbsvideodb.pbs.org/resources/ourselves/primary/photo26.html
Now I must go drink beer.
cross the river to the eastside
06-21-03 Alpine
09-09-05 Thunder Bay
05-17-06 Chicago
06-26-06 St. Paul
07-22-06 The Gorge
07-23-06 The Gorge
05-07-10 Noblesville
09-03-11 PJ20
09-04-11 PJ20
09-21-12 Pensicola
09-22-12 Atlanta
well said.
i think it's healthy to feel this way....to realize the shortcomings along with the successes. i also fail to see how if one has not reached 'perfection'....that i cannot enjoy or celebrate the good that does exist. lots of room for improvement, lots to work on.....but it doesn't mean we're an abysmal failure or should be so ashamed of ourselves either. eh well, to me....it's a national holiday, celebration a point in history....nothing wrong with that. i simply believe there is a middle ground.
hope everyone enjoyed their day...weather was rather bad here...so instead of a bbq...we went to our fave local mexican place.
personally, i think one can fully support change, be a patriot...and sure...embrace a national symbol...nothing wrong with that. it's all what you choose to focus on, is it a symbol that has anything positive in it for you or not....it's all personal perspective on it. i think a symbol's power lies in what you see within it. if all you see is negative, well of course then...why would you ever embrace it? obviously, some of us still something positve within the symbol, and are happy enough to display it. it 'solves' nothing either way, and flying a flag or not flying a flag on a national holiday....i don't necessarily see either choice as representation of any particular set of beliefs, or any one particular statement.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
The problem is where so many arrogantly display their flag and refuse to acknowledge the role the US is playing in the world and the repercussions of our imperialism. I think one should know and think about exactly what they are celebrating and having pride in. There are plenty of things I am proud of in this country, none of them have to do with a flag. Maybe when I see us as a WHOLE moving in the right direction and producing some progress, then I could understand more of this pride. Alot of the stories out there make me feel more embarrassed than proud. When I start reading more articles about the good we are doing around the world on a consistant basis...then maybe I'll consider flying our flag.
.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Go light a joint and shut the fuck up.
Of course you read about more good than bad. It's what sells. It's what people are attracted to.
You are the uneducated if you think more bad than good comes out of America. It means you simply read CNN and call it a day.
i fully agree. there is much arrogance, i think i used that term yesterday in one of my first posts in fact. however, i think it is possible to exhibit patriotism w/o arrogance as well. nothing i am proud of has anything to do with the flag, i choose to display my flag for reasons related to things i am proud of...thus why i think it's impossible to truly decipher why, or why not...one chooses to display a flag...it's not any one thing. some may do it for blind arrogance, we're the 'best' attitude...but others may do it in honor, in memoriam...as a sign of still caring despite the issues, etc. i'd love to see as as a WHOLE moving in the rigth direction...however i think it's far easier to identify the wrong direction we've been moving in, then what is truly the 'right' way...so yea, i choose to celebrate the smaller goods.....simply b/c i far rather see some good and enjoy that than all bad.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Sorry to break it to ya but #1. I don't smoke #2. I don't watch or read CNN hardly ever. #3. It seems like you're the one who might need an anger management class or two and then move on to some maturity lessons before you try to gauge the level of my education, troll.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Please don't talk to her that way. I disagree with a majority of her views too...but I think it's better to address the issues at hand instead of cursing at someone.
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Since when is that the policy on this board? Only when everyone agrees on cursing at some one is it allowed?
Give me a break.
She needs an education.
(and apparently a life...5600+ posts)
Well thank you Shawn
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
read the sticky at the top of the page oh master of education
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
oh that's not crime. it's kicking against the pricks who hold us down.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Sound advice. The education begins.
06-21-03 Alpine
09-09-05 Thunder Bay
05-17-06 Chicago
06-26-06 St. Paul
07-22-06 The Gorge
07-23-06 The Gorge
05-07-10 Noblesville
09-03-11 PJ20
09-04-11 PJ20
09-21-12 Pensicola
09-22-12 Atlanta
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
You're very welcome.
High Traffic ART EZI FTJ JSR KPA PCD SYN ULX VLB YHF
Low Traffic CIO MIW
Non Traffic ABC BAY FDU GBZ HNC NDP OEM ROV TMS ZWL
I ask myself that question a lot. Basically, my friends and immediate family keep me here. And relocating to another continent is kinda expensive, I bet.
Plus, it could be a lot worse. I appreciate the freedoms I have. I'm also glad I live in Massachusetts. I think postives outweigh the negatives in this state. If only New England would secede from the union.
While I have broken that policy many times on this board, it actually IS the policy of the board. Please just stick to the issues and debate her on the merits of her post. We don't need this thread locked down. It's an interesting topic.
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You're a classy guy, applenuts.
:cool:
to books original idea.. I think flags are kind of dumb. They symbolize pride, something most people have a hard time swallowing.. but if someone wants to hang one, I could careless...
My White Sox flag will stay high and proud however, letting Cubs fans know that I'm better and they suck.
Just so you know, I read your earlier post, and I do understand where you're coming from...and also where Mr. Zinn is coming from. I don't agree with his point, but I do understand it. As usual, you have managed to reign me back in and think things through instead of continuing to lash out. Thank you. Happy 4th of July.
High Traffic ART EZI FTJ JSR KPA PCD SYN ULX VLB YHF
Low Traffic CIO MIW
Non Traffic ABC BAY FDU GBZ HNC NDP OEM ROV TMS ZWL
yes, i think we would be better off
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
and lets not forget the lebanese vs aussie riots that occured quite recently.....LOL what a sad, sad day.....
i don't really understand the almost self-loathing of the u.s some have on this board but i do respect the fact abook and others are not going to take pride in something they are not proud of. better to be like that then to be a ted nugent or britney spears. here down under we don't really get into national pride unless it happens to be following the wallabies or the socceroos. that only changes on ANZAC day....
Have we lost our way tonight?
Have we lost our hope to sorrow?
Feels like were all alone
Running further from what’s right
And there are no more heroes to follow
So what are we becoming?
Where did we go wrong?
I think I will take down my flag after listening to McCready's Star Spangled Banner!!
Where I'm not ugly and you're lookin' at me
This has to got be one of the most dysfunctional families ever!
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
New England + New York!
Although I have quite a soft spot for the PNW, but I got to go with where I'm at!
cross the river to the eastside
I know your being humorous but its kind of funny on a thread about national pride not being a good thing, that people are putting their state or regional pride on display. New York City is more or less the financial capital of the world and the corporations it houses benefit as much or more than anyone, because of many of the various reasons decryed on this thread as a bad thing.
Well then it's funny all around, isn't it?
But really, it's about breaking away--I think that's the key. And NY isn't just the financial capital, but also offers some really good cheese. God, I'm a sucker for cheese. Oh a nice NYS cheddar . . .
And let's not forget the pizza, god I love white pie . . . and the bagels . . . and the franks and kraut . . . and the, oh man I'm hungry.
cross the river to the eastside
Well like I said, I know you were being funny so dont take it as picking on ya by any means, just found your post kind of funny within the context of the thread. But in saying that and with regards to the thread in general. I see nothing wrong with being proud of your country, state, city or whatever. Its not the pride that is hurtful, and putting away a flag is going to solve exactly zero problems world wide. What is hurtful is when you use your position in life to take advantage of those less fortunate. Its greed, not pride, that causes the problems Zinn is referring to. So I cant say I agree with Zinn on this and quite frankly think he is off base.
indeed it was. but typically a bunch of booze addled chest thumping idiot anglo australians defending 'their' turf. mistakes were made by both sides. but mostly the inaction of the police force was to blame for the situation getting out of hand. as well as the shock jock media bent on stirring up a hornet's nest all for ratings.
....when we all get together and celebrate our greatest military defeat under the guise of national pride, mateship and self-sacrifice.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Wave the flag of the Green Bay Packers, our new symbol of American pride. Sorry, any reference of cheese and I just can't help myself.
06-21-03 Alpine
09-09-05 Thunder Bay
05-17-06 Chicago
06-26-06 St. Paul
07-22-06 The Gorge
07-23-06 The Gorge
05-07-10 Noblesville
09-03-11 PJ20
09-04-11 PJ20
09-21-12 Pensicola
09-22-12 Atlanta