Your voice, Unions, and Politics

Posts: 6,056
edited October 2008 in A Moving Train
Would there not be a trickle-up effect into politics if workers fought for more power within the companies they work for?

If so many people see the government as being influenced more by corporate interests and lobby groups than by popular opinion.....Wouldn't a more organized workforce bring the current system at least a little more in line with peoples' beliefs?

By making smaller-scale democratic decisions within the company structure, before that corporate influence (money) is used (donated), we could gain more control over the companies that have control over the government....

Under the capitalist/socialist mutt of a system we are living under, is there a better alternative to have our voices heard than thru unions and worker solidarity?
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  • Posts: 4,984
    Drowned Out wrote:
    Would there not be a trickle-up effect into politics if workers fought for more power within the companies they work for?

    If so many people see the government as being influenced more by corporate interests and lobby groups than by popular opinion.....Wouldn't a more organized workforce bring the current system at least a little more in line with peoples' beliefs?

    By making smaller-scale democratic decisions within the company structure, before that corporate influence (money) is used (donated), we could gain more control over the companies that have control over the government....

    Under the capitalist/socialist mutt of a system we are living under, is there a better alternative to have our voices heard than thru unions and worker solidarity?


    The problem I think is that government seems to be operating under the idea that it is there to serve business and protect private profit. Oraganized labor is a threat to that system, so the battle for worker solidarity seems to be an uphill battle-but that's as its always been.

    But yes, I agree 100%. If workers were more organized, if we had a democratized economy (cuz why the fuck not, since we're calling ourselves a democracy), I think labor would be rewarded on a scale that is much more reflective of their worth.

    Labor runs the country, and so can speak the loudest.
  • Posts: 3,965
    Unions were created out of necessity for the good of the workers in bad and hazardous situations. They definitely served a good purpose but ultimately gained too much control and spawned graft and corruption and had a backlash against them-hence the decline, as well as the move to more white collar jobs.

    Workers rights are so defined and protected now, but not in an organized way.
    Some of the legislation strangles companies. I'd definitely like to see the workers have more say in the business, and if you look at some very successful companies they do. That should be the model.

    I'm not sure what the answer is, but I can see that changes would be good and beneficial to us all. :)
    "I'd rather be with an animal." "Those that can be trusted can change their mind." "The in between is mine." "If I don't lose control, explore and not explode, a preternatural other plane with the power to maintain." "Yeh this is living." "Life is what you make it."
  • Seattle Posts: 7,177
    Commy wrote:
    I think labor would be rewarded on a scale that is much more reflective of their worth.

    Labor's worth is what someone is willing to pay for it.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • Seattle Posts: 7,177
    In this country unions don't represent workers unions represent unions.

    I know that I'd shut down any business I owned before I'd allow unionization to take place. That said, I have always valued open communication, input from everyone, etc...

    If workers want a workers' paradise, they should start their own businesses and make them completely democratic. Nothing is stoping anyone from doing that.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • West Seattle Posts: 10,724
    I was in a union once, I saw no benefit from it. We were the only unionized group in the office. The only good thing about it was it would've been pretty much impossible to get fired.

    Other than that, it was a bunch of politics.
    NERDS!
  • Posts: 4,984
    jeffbr wrote:
    Labor's worth is what someone is willing to pay for it.
    Uder the current system. On a more realistic scale, labor would be payed far more.

    I worked with 20 other guys for 2 years in a restaraunt in Seattle. Our labor was the reason the business existed, and we worked our asses off, every fucking day. The company that owned the restaraunt made $13 million that year. I made $12 an hour.

    Think about that on a global scale. Why are a few individuals benefiting from the labor of the majority? A small group of individuals are reaping the rewards of labor-we are being exploited. And people defend that-out of patriotism, out of fear, out of fear of change-the world doesn't have to be this way.
  • Posts: 6,056
    Commy wrote:
    Uder the current system. On a more realistic scale, labor would be payed far more.

    I worked with 20 other guys for 2 years in a restaraunt in Seattle. Our labor was the reason the business existed, and we worked our asses off, every fucking day. The company that owned the restaraunt made $13 million that year. I made $12 an hour.

    Think about that on a global scale. Why are a few individuals benefiting from the labor of the majority? A small group of individuals are reaping the rewards of labor-we are being exploited. And people defend that-out of patriotism, out of fear, out of fear of change-the world doesn't have to be this way.

    Exactly.....the pay between company heads and their workers is so incredibly unbalanced. I'd like to see some stats regarding the affect it would have on average wages if all fortune 500 company board members took, say, a 30% pay cut, and increased worker wages proportionately. And don't give me this "they're the best and brightest, they've worked to get there, they've taken the risks" bullshit....no one deserves 8 or 9 digit a year compensation for ANY job.

    The only way for it to change is for the people at the top to cut their own take-home profit, and increase those of their workers in a private company....or in the public structure, for ALL workers to have profit sharing and stock options....do people really think this could ever happen without workers uniting to stand up to their employers?
  • Posts: 6,056
    South of Seattle wrote:
    I was in a union once, I saw no benefit from it. We were the only unionized group in the office. The only good thing about it was it would've been pretty much impossible to get fired.

    Other than that, it was a bunch of politics
    Dude, that's my fucking point! :D

    Did you recieve a union newsletter? Did they try to get you to help organize against outsourcing that effected the workers in your field, or against politicians that were in bed with big business? Did you do anything to help?

    THIS is why it's not working, people aren't doing what they can....a union IS useless without the support of it's members.

    For the record, I'm not in a union, but was for a while...and for the longest time, I never understood the value in it either, because I only thought of it as job security...now that I've left it, while at the same time becoming more aware of political issues and the union's role in politics, I am beginning to see them in an entirely different light.
  • West Seattle Posts: 10,724
    Drowned Out wrote:
    Dude, that's my fucking point! :D

    Did you recieve a union newsletter? Did they try to get you to help organize against outsourcing that effected the workers in your field, or against politicians that were in bed with big business? Did you do anything to help?

    THIS is why it's not working, people aren't doing what they can....a union IS useless without the support of it's members.

    For the record, I'm not in a union, but was for a while...and for the longest time, I never understood the value in it either, because I only thought of it as job security...now that I've left it, while at the same time becoming more aware of political issues and the union's role in politics, I am beginning to see them in an entirely different light.

    Once we left the union. Our bonuses got about $1000 more per year and my hourly wage went up $5 in like a month. The only thing is that I miss is not being paid double time and a half for holidays anymore :cool:
    NERDS!
  • Posts: 6,056
    jeffbr wrote:
    In this country unions don't represent workers unions represent unions.

    I know that I'd shut down any business I owned before I'd allow unionization to take place. That said, I have always valued open communication, input from everyone, etc...

    If workers want a workers' paradise, they should start their own businesses and make them completely democratic. Nothing is stoping anyone from doing that.

    You know that not everyone is capable of running their own business, and capitalism could not survive under that scenario anyway, so lets be realistic....

    I agree with some of what you're saying tho....these consolidated unions are as much a corporation as the corporations....I think the ideal would be for people to organize within their own companies, without necessarily joining these massive international unions that have way too broad a scope in all industry, and have therefore created more beauracracy...a united workforce in one company can influence that company without some massive union backing it...no board or company owner wants to shut down a profitable business, nor do they want mass employee turnover for rejecting a united demand.
    People need to be involved in their unions, as in politics, or their elected union officials would be as easily corrupted as any politician...
  • Posts: 6,056
    South of Seattle wrote:
    Once we left the union. Our bonuses got about $1000 more per year and my hourly wage went up $5 in like a month. The only thing is that I miss is not being paid double time and a half for holidays anymore :cool:

    do you think if all of your company got behind the union, you could have got that $5/hr? Do you know where that extra money came from? Did you lose any benefits, or did your company just give you a bigger share of their profits? (I would be shocked)....your union dues alone would not increase your wage $5/hr....doesn't it strike you as odd that the money became available only after the company got rid of the union?
  • Posts: 136
    Commy wrote:
    Uder the current system. On a more realistic scale, labor would be payed far more.

    I worked with 20 other guys for 2 years in a restaraunt in Seattle. Our labor was the reason the business existed, and we worked our asses off, every fucking day. The company that owned the restaraunt made $13 million that year. I made $12 an hour.

    Think about that on a global scale. Why are a few individuals benefiting from the labor of the majority? A small group of individuals are reaping the rewards of labor-we are being exploited. And people defend that-out of patriotism, out of fear, out of fear of change-the world doesn't have to be this way.

    Why didn't you start your own business?
  • Posts: 2,619
    How can a union be started at a company?
    "In the age of darkness
    want to be enlightened"
  • Posts: 4,984
    dmitry wrote:
    Why didn't you start your own business?
    With a loan from a bank making $12 an hour or how would I go about doing that?
  • Posts: 6,056
    TheBeach wrote:
    How can a union be started at a company?
    I think the traditional route would be to speak with a rep from an exsisting union that would be involved in your industry, then work with them to convince enough of your co-workers to vote the workforce into the union before you get your asses fired. But I'm not really sure to be honest.
  • Posts: 4,984
    TheBeach wrote:
    How can a union be started at a company?
    It depends on what type of work you're in and what company you work for...

    If your in a local business with no union ties....quietly recruit your fellow employees...you need to be able to act as 1. If all of you are on board you can demand what you deserve. Your power is your ability to shut down the company, by refusing to work.....that is your power, the ability to shut down the business you are working for. There is more power in that than many people realize I think. If a company's workers decide to stop working, there is no company, and they have NO choice but to give in to the demands of the employees. If the employer decides to deny the request of the union leader (whoever the employees decide that to be), mention that no one is coming to work tomorrow, not until the requests have been fulfilled. They have no choice.

    If you are in a field that has been around for some time, there may be an existing union already formed, and you should contact union officials and work with them.

    I think its important too to clarify that unions were earned by the working class through bloodshed. If they hadn't fought and died for this solidarity, it wouldn't exist today, and we would have no overtime pay, no workers comp, no minimum wage, no child labor laws, no rights in the workforce at all. The rights of the working class were paid for in blood, and should be enforced with whatever means necessary.
  • Posts: 6,056
    Commy wrote:
    It depends on what type of work you're in and what company you work for...

    If your in a local business with no union ties....quietly recruit your fellow employees...you need to be able to act as 1. If all of you are on board you can demand what you deserve. Your power is your ability to shut down the company, by refusing to work.....that is your power, the ability to shut down the business you are working for. There is more power in that than many people realize I think. If a company's workers decide to stop working, there is no company, and they have NO choice but to give in to the demands of the employees. If the employer decides to deny the request of the union leader (whoever the employees decide that to be), mention that no one is coming to work tomorrow, not until the requests have been fulfilled. They have no choice.

    If you are in a field that has been around for some time, there may be an existing union already formed, and you should contact union officials and work with them.

    I think its important too to clarify that unions were earned by the working class through bloodshed. If they hadn't fought and died for this solidarity, it wouldn't exist today, and we would have no overtime pay, no workers comp, no minimum wage, no child labor laws, no rights in the workforce at all. The rights of the working class were paid for in blood, and should be enforced with whatever means necessary.

    There are probably legal issues involved with simply organizing your coworkers to essentially strike without some kind of official union registration...something worth looking into anyway. Either way, as you mention, a large majority of the company would have to be on board for the long haul, accepting no pay for the greater good.....companies can easily get around creative dismissal suits, or make it too expensive to fight....so they intimidate by making examples of people (firing them).
    You also mention another important, and seemingly forgotten history lesson....


    And...I don't get the 'start your own company' american dream fallacy...are people proposing that McD workers should all be working as their own companies, under subcontracts or wtf?
  • Posts: 136
    Commy wrote:
    With a loan from a bank making $12 an hour or how would I go about doing that?

    Somebody will give you a business loan if you can show them you really know what you're doing. Then you could pay everybody what you think they are worth.
  • Posts: 4,984
    Drowned Out wrote:

    And...I don't get the 'start your own company' american dream fallacy...are people proposing that McD workers should all be working as their own companies, under subcontracts or wtf?


    yeah. Am I gonna get a loan from a bank to start a restaraunt? I'm guessin no, even 5 years ago, before the economy went to shit. 'Start your own company and pay your employees what you think they're worth' WTF. How does a minimum wage worker go about starting his/her own company? How do I?

    "start your own company."
    "uhm sure, as soon as I come up with 50 grand I'll get right on that."
  • Posts: 4,984
    dmitry wrote:
    Somebody will give you a business loan if you can show them you really know what you're doing. Then you could pay everybody what you think they are worth.
    not today and not for the restaraunt business.

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