Your voice, Unions, and Politics

Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056
edited October 2008 in A Moving Train
Would there not be a trickle-up effect into politics if workers fought for more power within the companies they work for?

If so many people see the government as being influenced more by corporate interests and lobby groups than by popular opinion.....Wouldn't a more organized workforce bring the current system at least a little more in line with peoples' beliefs?

By making smaller-scale democratic decisions within the company structure, before that corporate influence (money) is used (donated), we could gain more control over the companies that have control over the government....

Under the capitalist/socialist mutt of a system we are living under, is there a better alternative to have our voices heard than thru unions and worker solidarity?
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  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    Would there not be a trickle-up effect into politics if workers fought for more power within the companies they work for?

    If so many people see the government as being influenced more by corporate interests and lobby groups than by popular opinion.....Wouldn't a more organized workforce bring the current system at least a little more in line with peoples' beliefs?

    By making smaller-scale democratic decisions within the company structure, before that corporate influence (money) is used (donated), we could gain more control over the companies that have control over the government....

    Under the capitalist/socialist mutt of a system we are living under, is there a better alternative to have our voices heard than thru unions and worker solidarity?


    The problem I think is that government seems to be operating under the idea that it is there to serve business and protect private profit. Oraganized labor is a threat to that system, so the battle for worker solidarity seems to be an uphill battle-but that's as its always been.

    But yes, I agree 100%. If workers were more organized, if we had a democratized economy (cuz why the fuck not, since we're calling ourselves a democracy), I think labor would be rewarded on a scale that is much more reflective of their worth.

    Labor runs the country, and so can speak the loudest.
  • wolfbearwolfbear Posts: 3,965
    Unions were created out of necessity for the good of the workers in bad and hazardous situations. They definitely served a good purpose but ultimately gained too much control and spawned graft and corruption and had a backlash against them-hence the decline, as well as the move to more white collar jobs.

    Workers rights are so defined and protected now, but not in an organized way.
    Some of the legislation strangles companies. I'd definitely like to see the workers have more say in the business, and if you look at some very successful companies they do. That should be the model.

    I'm not sure what the answer is, but I can see that changes would be good and beneficial to us all. :)
    "I'd rather be with an animal." "Those that can be trusted can change their mind." "The in between is mine." "If I don't lose control, explore and not explode, a preternatural other plane with the power to maintain." "Yeh this is living." "Life is what you make it."
  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    Commy wrote:
    I think labor would be rewarded on a scale that is much more reflective of their worth.

    Labor's worth is what someone is willing to pay for it.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    In this country unions don't represent workers unions represent unions.

    I know that I'd shut down any business I owned before I'd allow unionization to take place. That said, I have always valued open communication, input from everyone, etc...

    If workers want a workers' paradise, they should start their own businesses and make them completely democratic. Nothing is stoping anyone from doing that.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • South of SeattleSouth of Seattle West Seattle Posts: 10,724
    I was in a union once, I saw no benefit from it. We were the only unionized group in the office. The only good thing about it was it would've been pretty much impossible to get fired.

    Other than that, it was a bunch of politics.
    NERDS!
  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    jeffbr wrote:
    Labor's worth is what someone is willing to pay for it.
    Uder the current system. On a more realistic scale, labor would be payed far more.

    I worked with 20 other guys for 2 years in a restaraunt in Seattle. Our labor was the reason the business existed, and we worked our asses off, every fucking day. The company that owned the restaraunt made $13 million that year. I made $12 an hour.

    Think about that on a global scale. Why are a few individuals benefiting from the labor of the majority? A small group of individuals are reaping the rewards of labor-we are being exploited. And people defend that-out of patriotism, out of fear, out of fear of change-the world doesn't have to be this way.
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056
    Commy wrote:
    Uder the current system. On a more realistic scale, labor would be payed far more.

    I worked with 20 other guys for 2 years in a restaraunt in Seattle. Our labor was the reason the business existed, and we worked our asses off, every fucking day. The company that owned the restaraunt made $13 million that year. I made $12 an hour.

    Think about that on a global scale. Why are a few individuals benefiting from the labor of the majority? A small group of individuals are reaping the rewards of labor-we are being exploited. And people defend that-out of patriotism, out of fear, out of fear of change-the world doesn't have to be this way.

    Exactly.....the pay between company heads and their workers is so incredibly unbalanced. I'd like to see some stats regarding the affect it would have on average wages if all fortune 500 company board members took, say, a 30% pay cut, and increased worker wages proportionately. And don't give me this "they're the best and brightest, they've worked to get there, they've taken the risks" bullshit....no one deserves 8 or 9 digit a year compensation for ANY job.

    The only way for it to change is for the people at the top to cut their own take-home profit, and increase those of their workers in a private company....or in the public structure, for ALL workers to have profit sharing and stock options....do people really think this could ever happen without workers uniting to stand up to their employers?
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056
    I was in a union once, I saw no benefit from it. We were the only unionized group in the office. The only good thing about it was it would've been pretty much impossible to get fired.

    Other than that, it was a bunch of politics
    Dude, that's my fucking point! :D

    Did you recieve a union newsletter? Did they try to get you to help organize against outsourcing that effected the workers in your field, or against politicians that were in bed with big business? Did you do anything to help?

    THIS is why it's not working, people aren't doing what they can....a union IS useless without the support of it's members.

    For the record, I'm not in a union, but was for a while...and for the longest time, I never understood the value in it either, because I only thought of it as job security...now that I've left it, while at the same time becoming more aware of political issues and the union's role in politics, I am beginning to see them in an entirely different light.
  • South of SeattleSouth of Seattle West Seattle Posts: 10,724
    Dude, that's my fucking point! :D

    Did you recieve a union newsletter? Did they try to get you to help organize against outsourcing that effected the workers in your field, or against politicians that were in bed with big business? Did you do anything to help?

    THIS is why it's not working, people aren't doing what they can....a union IS useless without the support of it's members.

    For the record, I'm not in a union, but was for a while...and for the longest time, I never understood the value in it either, because I only thought of it as job security...now that I've left it, while at the same time becoming more aware of political issues and the union's role in politics, I am beginning to see them in an entirely different light.

    Once we left the union. Our bonuses got about $1000 more per year and my hourly wage went up $5 in like a month. The only thing is that I miss is not being paid double time and a half for holidays anymore :cool:
    NERDS!
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056
    jeffbr wrote:
    In this country unions don't represent workers unions represent unions.

    I know that I'd shut down any business I owned before I'd allow unionization to take place. That said, I have always valued open communication, input from everyone, etc...

    If workers want a workers' paradise, they should start their own businesses and make them completely democratic. Nothing is stoping anyone from doing that.

    You know that not everyone is capable of running their own business, and capitalism could not survive under that scenario anyway, so lets be realistic....

    I agree with some of what you're saying tho....these consolidated unions are as much a corporation as the corporations....I think the ideal would be for people to organize within their own companies, without necessarily joining these massive international unions that have way too broad a scope in all industry, and have therefore created more beauracracy...a united workforce in one company can influence that company without some massive union backing it...no board or company owner wants to shut down a profitable business, nor do they want mass employee turnover for rejecting a united demand.
    People need to be involved in their unions, as in politics, or their elected union officials would be as easily corrupted as any politician...
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056
    Once we left the union. Our bonuses got about $1000 more per year and my hourly wage went up $5 in like a month. The only thing is that I miss is not being paid double time and a half for holidays anymore :cool:

    do you think if all of your company got behind the union, you could have got that $5/hr? Do you know where that extra money came from? Did you lose any benefits, or did your company just give you a bigger share of their profits? (I would be shocked)....your union dues alone would not increase your wage $5/hr....doesn't it strike you as odd that the money became available only after the company got rid of the union?
  • dmitrydmitry Posts: 136
    Commy wrote:
    Uder the current system. On a more realistic scale, labor would be payed far more.

    I worked with 20 other guys for 2 years in a restaraunt in Seattle. Our labor was the reason the business existed, and we worked our asses off, every fucking day. The company that owned the restaraunt made $13 million that year. I made $12 an hour.

    Think about that on a global scale. Why are a few individuals benefiting from the labor of the majority? A small group of individuals are reaping the rewards of labor-we are being exploited. And people defend that-out of patriotism, out of fear, out of fear of change-the world doesn't have to be this way.

    Why didn't you start your own business?
  • How can a union be started at a company?
    "In the age of darkness
    want to be enlightened"
  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    dmitry wrote:
    Why didn't you start your own business?
    With a loan from a bank making $12 an hour or how would I go about doing that?
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056
    TheBeach wrote:
    How can a union be started at a company?
    I think the traditional route would be to speak with a rep from an exsisting union that would be involved in your industry, then work with them to convince enough of your co-workers to vote the workforce into the union before you get your asses fired. But I'm not really sure to be honest.
  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    TheBeach wrote:
    How can a union be started at a company?
    It depends on what type of work you're in and what company you work for...

    If your in a local business with no union ties....quietly recruit your fellow employees...you need to be able to act as 1. If all of you are on board you can demand what you deserve. Your power is your ability to shut down the company, by refusing to work.....that is your power, the ability to shut down the business you are working for. There is more power in that than many people realize I think. If a company's workers decide to stop working, there is no company, and they have NO choice but to give in to the demands of the employees. If the employer decides to deny the request of the union leader (whoever the employees decide that to be), mention that no one is coming to work tomorrow, not until the requests have been fulfilled. They have no choice.

    If you are in a field that has been around for some time, there may be an existing union already formed, and you should contact union officials and work with them.

    I think its important too to clarify that unions were earned by the working class through bloodshed. If they hadn't fought and died for this solidarity, it wouldn't exist today, and we would have no overtime pay, no workers comp, no minimum wage, no child labor laws, no rights in the workforce at all. The rights of the working class were paid for in blood, and should be enforced with whatever means necessary.
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056
    Commy wrote:
    It depends on what type of work you're in and what company you work for...

    If your in a local business with no union ties....quietly recruit your fellow employees...you need to be able to act as 1. If all of you are on board you can demand what you deserve. Your power is your ability to shut down the company, by refusing to work.....that is your power, the ability to shut down the business you are working for. There is more power in that than many people realize I think. If a company's workers decide to stop working, there is no company, and they have NO choice but to give in to the demands of the employees. If the employer decides to deny the request of the union leader (whoever the employees decide that to be), mention that no one is coming to work tomorrow, not until the requests have been fulfilled. They have no choice.

    If you are in a field that has been around for some time, there may be an existing union already formed, and you should contact union officials and work with them.

    I think its important too to clarify that unions were earned by the working class through bloodshed. If they hadn't fought and died for this solidarity, it wouldn't exist today, and we would have no overtime pay, no workers comp, no minimum wage, no child labor laws, no rights in the workforce at all. The rights of the working class were paid for in blood, and should be enforced with whatever means necessary.

    There are probably legal issues involved with simply organizing your coworkers to essentially strike without some kind of official union registration...something worth looking into anyway. Either way, as you mention, a large majority of the company would have to be on board for the long haul, accepting no pay for the greater good.....companies can easily get around creative dismissal suits, or make it too expensive to fight....so they intimidate by making examples of people (firing them).
    You also mention another important, and seemingly forgotten history lesson....


    And...I don't get the 'start your own company' american dream fallacy...are people proposing that McD workers should all be working as their own companies, under subcontracts or wtf?
  • dmitrydmitry Posts: 136
    Commy wrote:
    With a loan from a bank making $12 an hour or how would I go about doing that?

    Somebody will give you a business loan if you can show them you really know what you're doing. Then you could pay everybody what you think they are worth.
  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984

    And...I don't get the 'start your own company' american dream fallacy...are people proposing that McD workers should all be working as their own companies, under subcontracts or wtf?


    yeah. Am I gonna get a loan from a bank to start a restaraunt? I'm guessin no, even 5 years ago, before the economy went to shit. 'Start your own company and pay your employees what you think they're worth' WTF. How does a minimum wage worker go about starting his/her own company? How do I?

    "start your own company."
    "uhm sure, as soon as I come up with 50 grand I'll get right on that."
  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    dmitry wrote:
    Somebody will give you a business loan if you can show them you really know what you're doing. Then you could pay everybody what you think they are worth.
    not today and not for the restaraunt business.
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    Would there not be a trickle-up effect into politics if workers fought for more power within the companies they work for?

    If so many people see the government as being influenced more by corporate interests and lobby groups than by popular opinion.....Wouldn't a more organized workforce bring the current system at least a little more in line with peoples' beliefs?

    By making smaller-scale democratic decisions within the company structure, before that corporate influence (money) is used (donated), we could gain more control over the companies that have control over the government....

    Under the capitalist/socialist mutt of a system we are living under, is there a better alternative to have our voices heard than thru unions and worker solidarity?

    No. Absolutely NO to all questions asked. Unions are a big part of the problems industry is having now in the U.S.

    For their own good, unions need to get out of the way now or face the fact that they are going to be the direct cause of their own demise - and the transfer of their jobs elsewhere.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • ccRyderzzccRyderzz Posts: 163
    Would there not be a trickle-up effect into politics if workers fought for more power within the companies they work for?

    If so many people see the government as being influenced more by corporate interests and lobby groups than by popular opinion.....Wouldn't a more organized workforce bring the current system at least a little more in line with peoples' beliefs?

    By making smaller-scale democratic decisions within the company structure, before that corporate influence (money) is used (donated), we could gain more control over the companies that have control over the government....

    Under the capitalist/socialist mutt of a system we are living under, is there a better alternative to have our voices heard than thru unions and worker solidarity?
    All of a sudden, boom, it's a narcotic and it's outlawed by FDA. What
    is the initial response of all these grey-haired fathers of psychiatry
    to making LSD an illegal substance? Protest, it's a bad thing, it's
    robbing us of a powerful psychotherapeutic agent, it's crippling our
    research efforts. These guys were hung out to dry. They were used by
    Intelligence Agencies to gather therapeutic use of LSD, interrogation
    use of LSD, psychotomenitic (sp) use of LSD and then when they had done
    their job, LSD was just cancelled from academia. It was made illegal,
    and then a whole disinformation campaign went along with that whereby
    LSD was transformed from this wonderful therapeutic agent whose use was
    advocated by the major leading figures in psychiatry into this horrible
    thing that made children jump out of windows and bust up their
    chromosomes. It's called a "disinformation campaign". And it caught the
    leaders of psychiatry totally by su rprise, which is hard to believe
    since psychiatrists are such clever political strategists in general.
    What about this whole creating Manchurian Candidate stuff which we see
    now for a fact has been going on since WWII? And according to
    Estabrooks, even back to WWI? We now have established for a proven fact
    that was going on during WWII, and the CIA was working on it in
    Artichoke and Bluebird from 1951-53. The Korean War only started in
    1950. The disinformation was that our boys went overseas there, they
    got shot down, they got captured, the Communist Chinese worked on them
    with these strange techniques we don't understand. The person who coined
    the term "brainwashing" in a book was Edwin Hunter. He's a career CIA
    officer. This was a term coined by the CIA to explain what was happening
    to our boys in North Korea who were making bold statements about germ
    warfare activities they had been involved in. Now it could be that part
    of the Communist brainwashing strategy was to talk to these guys about
    the ethical improprieties of biological warfare and bombing they
    actually had been doing in North Korea. In any rate, they come home as
    Manchurian Candidates. We are all bent out of shape because our boys are
    talking Communism, so we say that we have got to start studying this
    reactively and defensively because of what the Commies are doing. That
    is the disinformation myth that has been adhered to by the Military
    Intelligence community steadfastly from the Korean War to the present.
    It's totally bullshit. It's disinformation. It's not a fact. It's a
    made up story to cover up the fact that actually we had operational
    offensive use of this psychological warfare technology already in place
    in WWII. We have a major disinformation campaign which has basically
    fooled mental health professions and the general public concerning
    brainwashing, concerning LSD. Fortunately those are the only two
    examples in human history. This analysis does not apply to the False
    Memory movement. There is no way it could conceivably be possible, you
    will all agree, that there could be any nervousness in the Intelligence
    Community about Manchurian Candidates spilling out into civilian
    psychotherapies and that a disinformation program based on False
    Memories would be required. It is obviously absurd. Nobody but a CIA
    conspiracy nut would ever suggest that. I guarantee you that that
    thought has never even crossed my mind until it just spontaneously
    appeared at this moment. So you see, actually, in fact, the idea that
    there could be a deliberate disinformation campaign element to the False
    Memory movement is perfectly plausible, consistent with history, and
    could be expected. There is bound to be some sort of disinformation
    strategy if in fact Manchurian Candidates have been leaking out into
    civilian psychotherapy. So here we have, with all of this
    documentation, all of this proof ... we know that it is perfectly
    possible that people we are seeing in therapy who are claiming to be
    victims of systematic military mind control experimentation are telling
    us about what actually happened to them. However, I am not a single
    step further ahead than I was four years ago on actually documenting
    that any single patient in treatment actually in fact was involved in
    these mind control experiments. There is no linkage at all from the
    current patients in treatment to this documentation. So whether we are
    ever going to get that or not, I don't know. (From audience: Mind
    Control and the Military can be found on America On-Line on the internet
    - "On Psych"-and there are websites). Apparently there is a lot of
    information about this on the web and on internet and AOl and elsewhere.
    But the problem is, I don't go to chat rooms very often, but most of it
    is totally banal, and silly and boring and a waste of time. So when you
    go into the stuff on mind control, how much is garbage that you are
    going to get, and how much is solid stuff that you can pursue and
    document are you going to get is my question. I have no idea what the
    answer is. But, as we all know, the truth is out there. (From the
    audience: "how would I go about documenting that a patient I, or
    somebody else, currently has in treatment, in fact was involved in that
    kind of experimentation?") Well, here's how the documentation has gone
    so far. By the way, I have done Freedom of Information Act requests on
    MONARCH at all Intelligence Agencies, and they have all denied it
    exists. The patient apparently has no source of contamination for
    specific MONARCH memories, but has the word Monarch in her mind, and has
    very specific detailed Monarch-type mind control memories. Her father
    basically abused her domestically and ritualistically, and then took her
    over to the mind control people. How she got there, what the transport
    mechanism was .. plane, car, location is all vague because she appears
    to have been all drugged out then transported. Is it possible that her
    father could have been this kind of person? Well, I have his military
    service records which I got through the Freedom of Informatiion Act, I
    have a lette r from him in prison where he is imprisoned for mob crime
    connections, I've got a mother and a sister corroborating the domestic
    incest, the sister with some patchy corroboration of ritualistic and
    mind control memories, I've got the father personally connected to Jack
    Ruby. That's as far as it goes. It's sort of circumstantial and
    intriguing. So the way I would attempt to document it would be if the
    person tells me (most people can't tell you the specific name of the
    doctor) but if somebody gives you a specific name of a doctor, and gives
    you a specific location, and you can establish that this doctor actually
    existed, and you can establish that in fact this doctor was a CIA
    employee, and you can establish that this person's father was imprisoned
    by the FBI as part of a Mafia raid by looking at the journal articles
    that the patient has, then you are starting to get closer and closer. So
    it is your basic investigative reporting type stuff. Name the specific
    base. Okay what do yo u know about the base? How did you get there?
    Tell me about some buildings? Tell me about personnel. Describe the
    uniforms. What was used? And then if you can get another subject who
    was there at the same time ... that's just the way it is. It is your
    basic investigative reporting. Which is way beyond being a therapist.
    There is no therapeutic obligation to do this. This is mega beyond duty
    to take collateral history. So I don't think there is any mystery as to
    how it would proceed. And it will proceed probably in the same way as
    the history of declassified information since WWII. In about, I think
    1988, stuff was released to the Senate and the Congress and then to the
    Press about all these radiation experiments. Nobody did anything. It
    didn't even get into the newspapers. It was in the public domain for
    five years before it finally hits the newspapers. Now we've got this
    government report that is 900 pages long on all the radiation
    experiments, including giving radiation to children and radiation to
    pregnant mothers and the children of those pregnancies dying of leukemia
    by age five. This is huge, big stuff. Everybody was apathetic, didn't
    think it was newsworthy, didn 't even put it as a little trailer item in
    the New York Ti mes. This is no longer vague. We know the specific
    names of people, when they died, whether it was plutonium or whatever
    was injected, the names of the doctors, the names of the medical schools
    where it was done, it's all keyed up for compensation, the government
    has set up a whole compensation mechanism. If we look at the Tuscagee
    Syphilis Study ... it is worse than the creation of Manchurian
    Candidates. It was set up in Tuscagee, Alabama in the 1940's. The
    experiment is-you've got 400 rural, dirt-poor black guys with active
    syphilis and 400 controls. These people are followed without treatment
    into the 1970's. The people who are involved in the Tuscagee Syphilis
    Study (it is a huge long list and I can't remember all the details of
    it) but it includes the County Medical Society, the administration of
    the study was actually taken over by the Centre of Disease Control, the
    Surgeon General, the American Heart Association, all kinds of people
    were witting, knowledgeable and awar e of the study and ap proved its
    ongoing nature well into the 60's and into the 70's, in complete
    violation of all known medical ethics. Well okay, that was kept kind of
    secret. Nobody heard about it except some of these medical bigwigs. No.
    I have a medical paper from the medical school published in 1965 called
    "Untreated Syphilis in a Male Negro - A 20 year follow-up". This stuff
    is published, right in the medical literature. It is looking everybody
    right in the face. What happens when you have 400 illiterate rural
    black guys with active syphilis untreated, for 40 years? Well, the
    outcome of the experiment is, you will be very surprised to hear, they
    don't do too well, they develop a lot of disease, and they die young.
    They do another thing. They breathe air. There is another behaviour
    that we can predict in these guys. They eat food. Going down the list?
    They urinate and defecate. Continuing along with basic human functions,
    they have sexual intercourse with women. Anybody who has been to medical
    school will tell you it is 100% guaranteed that if you take 400 black
    guys with syphil is and do not treat them, the rest of t heir lives, you
    are guaranteed to be creating cases of congenital syphilis. The entire
    medical community knows this as an elementary fact that you learn in
    first year medical school, it is published in the medical literature,
    and it's condoned by all levels of the old boys network in world
    medicine. This is totally unbelievable and completely factual. This
    Manchurian Candidate stuff is like Mickey Mouse Psych stuff. It's not
    even heavy duty. The nurse who was the head of the Tuscagee Syphilis
    study throughout its duration, actually got an award from the Public
    Health Service because of her work on the Tuscagee Syphilis Study. The
    individual guys have gone and testified at the Senate. You can read the
    book, "Bad Blood" and these guys are named as individual human beings.
    Which individual human beings who are victims of military mind control
    research do we already know? Harold Blauer, the tennis pro who was
    killed. Frank Olson who was killed because he jumped through a window
    because he took LSD mixed with Cointro by Sidney Gottlieb
  • Kel VarnsenKel Varnsen Posts: 1,952
    Commy wrote:
    Uder the current system. On a more realistic scale, labor would be payed far more.

    I worked with 20 other guys for 2 years in a restaraunt in Seattle. Our labor was the reason the business existed, and we worked our asses off, every fucking day. The company that owned the restaraunt made $13 million that year. I made $12 an hour.

    Think about that on a global scale. Why are a few individuals benefiting from the labor of the majority? A small group of individuals are reaping the rewards of labor-we are being exploited. And people defend that-out of patriotism, out of fear, out of fear of change-the world doesn't have to be this way.

    Twelve bucks an hours seems like a pretty good wage for working in a restaurant. I mean yes you worked hard but unless you are the head chef, it is not like most positions in a restaurant are really that difficult. Plus most people working in restaurants get tips. I am curious how much do you think you should have been getting paid.

    I honestly think unions have served their purpose. There are labour laws in place to protect workers from being totally screwed. Now unions seem to be just in it for the money (theirs and as a side benefit their employees). Plus a lot of times their hard line attitudes mean less jobs. Plus I bet there is as much corruption in unions as there is in any corporation, if not more.
  • On average union workers make about 30% more than their non-union counterparts working in similar occupations.
  • ccRyderzzccRyderzz Posts: 163
    NO. 17601
    DEBRA ANN DIRKS, DENISE LEE DIRKS, VONNIE LYNN DIRKS, and
    GERALD EDWARD DIRKS, Plaintiffs-Appellees, v. NORMAN T.
    BROOKS, Defendant, and BEVERLY H. BROOKS,
    Intervenor-Appellant
    (By: Burns, C.J., Watanabe, and Lim, JJ.)

    In this appeal, Intervenor-Appellant Beverly H. Brooks (Beverly or
    Intervenor) challenges the October 7, 1993 Findings of Fact and Conclusions
    of Law; Order (the 1993 Order), issued by the Circuit Court of the Second
    Circuit (the circuit court), Judge E. John McConnell presiding, denying
    Beverly's December 17, 1991 Complaint for Declaratory and Injunctive Relief.
    We affirm.On September 6, 1979, John L. Franklin, Personal Representative of
    Estate of Roy L. Dirks, Deceased (Dirks) (1)
    filed a Complaint in the circuit court to domesticate an Oregon wrongful
    death judgment against Defendant-Appellant Norman T. Brooks (Norman or
    Defendant). On September 7, 1979, Dirks filed a Motion for Preliminary
    Injunction to enjoin Norman, during the pendency of the lawsuit, "from
    selling, leasing, assigning or in anyway [sic] alienating his interest in
    the real property located at tax map key number 2-8-005-102" (the Maui
    property). The recorded deed for the Maui property reflected that Norman
    owned the Maui property with Beverly as joint tenants with the right of
    survivorship.
    On August 7, 1981, Dirks moved for judgment on the pleadings. On October 21,
    1981, the circuit court, Judge Kase Higa presiding, entered: (1) an Order
    Granting [Dirks'] Motion for Judgment on the Pleadings, which noted that
    Norman did not appear at the hearing on the motion; (2) a Judgment for Dirks
    and against Norman for $1,200,000.00, the amount claimed by Dirks, as well
    as interest, costs, and attorney fees totaling $227,209.20; and (3) a Notice
    of Entry of Order or Judgment. (2)

    On July 12, 1991, new counsel entered an appearance for Dirks, whose prior
    counsel had died. The same day, an Execution of the October 21, 1981
    Judgment was filed in the circuit court, commanding the sheriff or deputy
    sheriff of the State of Hawai`i to levy upon Norman's Maui property. On
    August 26, 1991, a deputy sheriff filed a Notice of Execution, certifying
    that he had levied upon all of the right, title and interest of Norman in
    the Maui property.

    On August 30, 1991, Dirks filed an ex parte motion to revive the October 21,
    1981 Judgment against Norman, on grounds that no part of the judgment had
    yet been paid or satisfied. An order granting the motion was entered on
    August 30, 1991.

    On November 29, 1991, Beverly filed a Motion for Leave to Intervene as a
    party to the action against Norman and be allowed to file a complaint
    seeking declaratory judgment "that [Beverly] is the equitable and sole owner
    of [the Maui property] and directing reformation of the deed to reflect sole
    ownership by [Beverly.]"

    Beverly's Motion for Leave to Intervene was granted on January 2, 1992.

    Following a July 12, 1993 bench trial, the circuit court, on October 7,
    1993, issued the 1993 Order, denying Beverly's proposed declaratory judgment
    and reformation of deed.

    The 1993 Order explained in detail the background of the case and the
    circuit court's reasoning for denying Beverly's order:

    FINDINGS OF FACT AND CONCLUSIONS OF LAW

    This matter came on for non-jury trial on July 12, 1993, before the
    HONORABLE E. JOHN McCONNELL, presiding, upon the action of the Intervenor,
    BEVERLY BROOKS, for a declaratory judgment that she is the sole legal and
    equitable owner of certain improved real property and for reformation of a
    recorded deed concerning that property. Attorney Carolyn Burton appeared on
    behalf of the Intervenor, BEVERLY BROOKS ("Intervenor"), and the Defendant,
    NORMAN T. BROOKS ("Defendant"), both of whom were present in court
    throughout the trial. Attorneys Steven Guttman and Ronald S. Adelman
    appeared on behalf of the Plaintiff, JOHN L. FRANKLIN ("Plaintiff"). The
    [c]ourt having heard and considered the oral and documentary evidence
    received at trial, the stipulations of the parties, the issues raised by the
    pleadings, and the arguments of counsel; and the [c]ourt being fully advised
    in the premises, and good cause appearing therefor, the [c]ourt hereby makes
    the following findings of fact and conclusions of law:
    FINDINGS OF FACT
    1. The Intervenor, an educated woman now aged 64, has continuously since
    August of 1978 cohabitated with the Defendant, now aged 50, at improved real
    property located at 120 Waonehele Place, Haiku, Maui, Hawaii 96708, bearing
    TMK 12-2-8-005-102 ("the subject property").
    The Intervenor first met the Defendant in Oregon in 1973 through the
    Intervenor's daughter, Maureen, who was then living with the Defendant. At
    that time, the Intervenor was married to Dr. Robert Daugherty, and her legal
    name was Beverly Felice Benton Daugherty. The Intervenor had been married
    Dr. Daugherty since 1946, and they had four children, all daughters.
    From 1973 to 1975, the Intervenor visited with the Defendant and her
    daughter Maureen at least once per month. On July 1, 1975, the Intervenor
    separated from her husband and moved in with the Defendant's family. At that
    time, the Defendant was the father of three natural children and three
    adopted children ("the Defendant's children"). The Intervenor filed a
    divorce action against her husband. She engaged the services of an attorney
    to handle the divorce. She was granted a final decree of divorce in January
    of 1976, and received a property settlement which included the payment to
    her of $300,000.00 cash by her ex-husband in December of 1975.
    In 1975, the Plaintiff filed a wrongful death action in Oregon against
    the Defendant and others concerning the shooting death of deputy sheriff Roy
    L. Dirks.
    In 1975, in a separate criminal proceeding, the Defendant was convicted
    and incarcerated in the Oregon State Penitentiary, and served three years,
    from August, 1975, until he was released in August, 1978.
    On August 13, 1975, the Intervenor had her name legally changed in
    Oregon to Beverly Happy Brooks. She engaged the services of an attorney to
    handle the change of name. The Intervenor testified that the name change
    signified her commitment to the Defendant as a life partner, made her a
    member of the Norman T. Brooks family, and meant that she had become the
    godmother to the Defendant's children. The Intervenor's daughter, Maureen,
    had her name legally changed to Marry Brooks.
    In January or early February of 1976, the Intervenor and the Defendant
    agreed that the entire Brooks family should be moved out of Oregon, the
    Defendant to join them upon his release from prison. They further agreed
    that the Intervenor would provide the funds to purchase property for the
    family home. The Defendant, as head of the family, preferred moving the
    family to Texas. The Intervenor, who had visited Maui several times since
    1973, preferred moving the family to Maui. The Intervenor prevailed.
    In February of 1976, the Intervenor went to Maui to look for property
    to purchase. She carried with her $150,000 in cash in a briefcase for the
    purpose of using it to purchase land on Maui. She contacted a local realtor,
    Harry Holt, who showed her several properties, none of which she found
    acceptable. On her own, without a realtor, she found the subject property,
    called the telephone number on a posted for sale sign, and, on or about
    February 26, 1976, contracted to purchase the unimproved property from the
    owners, Dr. and Mrs. Pfaeltzer, for $100,000.
    It was the Intervenor's intention to purchase the land jointly with
    Defendant with rights of survivorship, thereby potentially benefitting her
    godchildren upon the death of Intervenor and Defendant. The Intervenor did
    not have a legal will. She testified that the realtor, Harry Holt, had told
    her that the easiest way to accomplish her intention was to have the
    Defendant's name on the deed. However, the Intervenor chose not to have any
    realtor or attorney advise or assist her in closing the transaction.
    Intervenor went to Security Title Corporation in Wailuku and
    opened an escrow. She then met with escrow officer Riki Inciong to work out
    the particulars of the transaction. The Intervenor never said anything to
    the escrow officer about buying the property to provide for any children, or
    about setting up a trust, or about holding the property in trust for any
    children.
    The Intervenor told the escrow officer that she and the Defendant, who
    was in Oregon, were husband and wife. As a result, all of the closing
    documents, including the Deed, listed them as husband and wife. Although the
    Intervenor and Defendant were not then, and never have been, legally
    married, the Intervenor believed that the Defendant was her "life partner"
    and felt that their relationship qualified as a marriage under a dictionary
    definition. The Intervenor signed the Defendant's name on the closing
    documents, including the escrow instructions.
    title to real property could be held in Hawaii: tenants by the
    entireties, joint tenants, tenants in common, and tenant in severalty. The
    Intervenor expressly directed the escrow officer that, in addition to her
    name, she wanted the Defendant's name on the deed. The Intervenor decided to
    hold title and co-own the property with the Defendant as joint tenants, with
    right of survivorship. As a result, all of the closing documents, including
    the Deed, listed the Intervenor and the Defendant as joint tenants.
    On March 1, 1976, the transaction was closed through escrow, and a
    Deed dated March 1, 1976, was recorded with the Bureau of Conveyances, State
    of Hawaii, in Liber 11272, Page 321, by which Dr. and Mrs. Pfaeltzer sold to
    the Defendant and the Intervenor, as joint tenants, the subject property,
    which was fully and legally described in the Deed.
    Upon returning to Oregon on March 15, 1976, the Intervenor visited the
    Defendant in prison and told him about the subject property, including the
    fact that his name was on the title as co-owner. The Intervenor testified
    that she spoke with an Oregon attorney named Price about removing the
    Defendant's name from the Deed and was told that it could be done. However,
    she did not do anything about it, as she did not think it
    was important, and that thereafter she procrastinated and never got around
    to pursuing the name removal.
    In April of 1976, while in Oregon, the Intervenor received a copy of
    the recorded Deed from the escrow officer. When the Intervenor received the
    Deed, she noted that both her name and the Defendant's were on the Deed,
    that they were listed as joint tenants, and that they were listed as being
    husband and wife. Thereafter, the Intervenor sent correspondence to the
    escrow officer, but none of her correspondence mentioned changing the title
    or having the Defendant's name removed from the Deed.
    On May 13, 1976, the Defendant signed and sent a letter to the escrow
    officer concerning the subject property. Defendant's letter made no mention
    of changing the title or having his name removed from the Deed.
    On July 30, 1976, at the Oregon State Penitentiary, the Intervenor and
    the Defendant both signed, in the presence of a notary public, a document
    which granted a utilities easement over the subject property to Maui
    Electric Company, Ltd. The easement document listed them as husband and
    wife. The easement document was recorded in the Bureau of Conveyances on
    September 10, 1976.
    During 1976, certain improvements were made to the subject property,
    including the construction of a dwelling. The Intervenor paid for these
    improvements. The Intervenor testified that the Defendant was the designer
    of the property. On or about August 10, 1978, the Defendant was released from prison
    and moved to the subject property on Maui with the Intervenor and joined the OUT OF PRISON HE COMMITTED THE MURDER OF THE SHERIFF August 29, 1979, in the Oregon wrongful death case, judgment was
    entered in favor of the Plaintiff and against the Defendant ("the Oregon
    Judgment"). The Plaintiff was awarded damages totalling $1,200,000 against
    the Defendant.
    21. On September 6, 1979, the complaint in this case was filed which
    sought to domesticate the Oregon Judgment. Following a hearing held on
    September 27, 1979, a preliminary injunction was entered in this case on
    November 20, 1979, which enjoined the Defendant "during the pendency of this
    action from selling, leasing, assigning or in any way alienating his
    interest in the real property located at TMK 2-8-005-102." The preliminary
    injunction order was recorded with the Bureau of Conveyances on November 20,1970' HOLT OWNED THE PROPERTY A DOCTOR RELATED TO THE IDIOTS IN OREGON
    On October 21, 1981, a judgment was entered in this case in favor of
    Plaintiff and against Defendant domesticating the Oregon Judgment and
    awarding to the Plaintiff damages totalling $1,427,209.20. On August 30,
    1991, this judgment was renewed, and the total damages awarded to the
    Plaintiff against the Defendant, with accrued interest, increased to
    $2,810,624.40. On November 8, 1991, the Intervenor filed her Motion for Intervention
    in this case. On December 17, 1991, complaint for declaratory
    judgment and injunctive relief.
    At all times since the Intervenor had the Defendant's name placed on
    the Deed to the subject property on March 1, 1976, up to the date of trial,
    she knew that his name remained on the title.
    During the period August 1978 to September 1979, when the Intervenor
    and the Defendant first cohabited together at the subject property, neither
    of them took any action to have the Defendant's name removed from the title
    to the BLOOD MONEY At the time that the Plaintiff sought the preliminary injunction
    the Defendant in this case in September of 1976, the Intervenor knew
    of the Oregon Judgment, knew of the filing of this action, and knew of the
    injunctive relief sought by Plaintiff. She admitted at trial that prior to filing her motion for intervention
    in 1991, she never engaged a Hawaii attorney to have the Defendant's name
    removed from the title.There was no evidence adduced at trial that the Defendant ever engaged
    a Hawaii attorney to have his name removed from the title BLOOD MONEY

    29. From the time that the Intervenor and the Defendant jointly took title
    to the subject property on March 1, 1976, until the Intervenor filed her
    Motion for Intervention in this case on November 8, 1991, no action was
    taken by either of them to remove the Defendant's name
  • ccRyderzzccRyderzz Posts: 163
    On average union workers make about 30% more than their non-union counterparts working in similar occupations.
    The front page of the July 10 edition of the "Talkeetna Times" reflected
    the town's busy summertime flavor.
    A sizeable crowd was expected at the Moose Dropping Festival, where
    thousands watch preserved poop dropped on a bull's-eye. Two climbers died on
    Mount McKinley, sad news for this, the last civilized stopover before base
    camp.

    But it was a two-page advertisement from an out-of-state religious group
    at the newspaper's center that's still got the town talking.
    "LIBERTY OF CONSCIENCE THREATENED," blares a headline above a photograph
    of President Bush bowing as he clasps the hand of Pope Benedict XVI. "SUNDAY
    WILL BE ENFORCED AS THE MARK OF THE BEAST."

    Another photo shows a billboard bearing the words, "Saturday the TRUE
    Lord's Day. Changed by Antichrist."

    The Florida-based Eternal Gospel Church, a splinter group of the Seventh
    Day Adventist Church with a reputation for controversy, bought the ad. It
    accuses the Catholic Church of pressing for enforcement of Sunday "blue"
    laws regulating moral activities. Seventh Day Adventists believe Saturday is
    the Sabbath.

    Huh?
  • ccRyderzzccRyderzz Posts: 163
    Commy wrote:
    With a loan from a bank making $12 an hour or how would I go about doing that?
    The front page of the July 10 edition of the "Talkeetna Times" reflected
    the town's busy summertime flavor.
    A sizeable crowd was expected at the Moose Dropping Festival, where
    thousands watch preserved poop dropped on a bull's-eye. Two climbers died on
    Mount McKinley, sad news for this, the last civilized stopover before base
    camp.

    But it was a two-page advertisement from an out-of-state religious group
    at the newspaper's center that's still got the town talking.
    "LIBERTY OF CONSCIENCE THREATENED," blares a headline above a photograph
    of President Bush bowing as he clasps the hand of Pope Benedict XVI. "SUNDAY
    WILL BE ENFORCED AS THE MARK OF THE BEAST."

    Another photo shows a billboard bearing the words, "Saturday the TRUE
    Lord's Day. Changed by Antichrist."

    The Florida-based Eternal Gospel Church, a splinter group of the Seventh
    Day Adventist Church with a reputation for controversy, bought the ad. It
    accuses the Catholic Church of pressing for enforcement of Sunday "blue"
    laws regulating moral activities. Seventh Day Adventists believe Saturday is
    the Sabbath.

    Huh?
  • ccRyderzzccRyderzz Posts: 163
    wolfbear wrote:
    Unions were created out of necessity for the good of the workers in bad and hazardous situations. They definitely served a good purpose but ultimately gained too much control and spawned graft and corruption and had a backlash against them-hence the decline, as well as the move to more white collar jobs.

    Workers rights are so defined and protected now, but not in an organized way.
    Some of the legislation strangles companies. I'd definitely like to see the workers have more say in the business, and if you look at some very successful companies they do. That should be the model.

    I'm not sure what the answer is, but I can see that changes would be good and beneficial to us all. :)
    From Amsterdam Henry Hopehandled the Spanish loan of 1792 when Spain was
    fighting against France. WhenHenry Hope moved to London in October 1794 it
    was a sign that the end hadcome. Alexander Baring was left to follow in
    January 1795. Shortly afterward theDutch Republic collapsed in the face of
    the French invasion.
    1767-87) and then eighteen to Russia (1788-93). Loan contractors retailed
    bondsnot only on the Amsterdam Bourse, but also throughout Europe by way of
    theAmsterdam Bourse. Loans were transferred by bills of exchange, and
    interest andrepayments were remitted back in the same way.28From Amsterdam
    Henry Hope
    Age of Secrets - The Conspiracy that Toppled Richard Nixon and the Hidden
    Death of Howard Hughes by Gerald Bellett
    (notes from the book)
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056
    know1 wrote:
    No. Absolutely NO to all questions asked. Unions are a big part of the problems industry is having now in the U.S.

    For their own good, unions need to get out of the way now or face the fact that they are going to be the direct cause of their own demise - and the transfer of their jobs elsewhere.

    Care to elaborate on how they're a big part of the problem facing industry? If we're talking blue-collar manufacturing (probably the industries most heavily affected by outsourcing), I've always thought of unions as the only people actually fighting to keep those jobs? How is getting out of the way going to help?

    Seems funny to me that the rise of Wal-Mart (the biggest, baddest union busters of them all), has coincided with the fall of unions, which has coincided with massive outsourcing of the manufacturing sector....yet unions are to blame?
  • Kel VarnsenKel Varnsen Posts: 1,952
    Care to elaborate on how they're a big part of the problem facing industry? If we're talking blue-collar manufacturing (probably the industries most heavily affected by outsourcing), I've always thought of unions as the only people actually fighting to keep those jobs? How is getting out of the way going to help?

    Seems funny to me that the rise of Wal-Mart (the biggest, baddest union busters of them all), has coincided with the fall of unions, which has coincided with massive outsourcing of the manufacturing sector....yet unions are to blame?

    I think the problems with unions in this case is that they don't seem to realize that there is much more competition for labour than there was in years past. They seem to take such a hard line approach, like pay us this much or we don't work. Back in the old days that tactic would work, but now if they want too much money and they won't work then a big company can much more easily move jobs somewhere where they are cheaper. I think if unions weren't so demanding, especailly since a lot of manufacturing jobs don't require a lot of skills yet get paid really well, companies might be more willing to work with them and let them keep their jobs.
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