Care to elaborate on how they're a big part of the problem facing industry? If we're talking blue-collar manufacturing (probably the industries most heavily affected by outsourcing), I've always thought of unions as the only people actually fighting to keep those jobs? How is getting out of the way going to help?
Seems funny to me that the rise of Wal-Mart (the biggest, baddest union busters of them all), has coincided with the fall of unions, which has coincided with massive outsourcing of the manufacturing sector....yet unions are to blame?
They're inflating the cost of low-skill jobs (and all other union jobs) to the point where the companies basically can't afford to compete globally without sending the jobs elsewhere.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I think the problems with unions in this case is that they don't seem to realize that there is much more competition for labour than there was in years past. They seem to take such a hard line approach, like pay us this much or we don't work. Back in the old days that tactic would work, but now if they want too much money and they won't work then a big company can much more easily move jobs somewhere where they are cheaper. I think if unions weren't so demanding, especailly since a lot of manufacturing jobs don't require a lot of skills yet get paid really well, companies might be more willing to work with them and let them keep their jobs.
I could have just quoted this as my response.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
yeah. Am I gonna get a loan from a bank to start a restaraunt? I'm guessin no, even 5 years ago, before the economy went to shit. 'Start your own company and pay your employees what you think they're worth' WTF. How does a minimum wage worker go about starting his/her own company? How do I?
"start your own company."
"uhm sure, as soon as I come up with 50 grand I'll get right on that."
It's not like a lender is giving you a business loan and expecting you to make payments on it with your minimum wage job. The business will be your income. Do some quick research on starting a business.
No. Absolutely NO to all questions asked. Unions are a big part of the problems industry is having now in the U.S.
For their own good, unions need to get out of the way now or face the fact that they are going to be the direct cause of their own demise - and the transfer of their jobs elsewhere.
Well, I'm in a union. And I gotta say, you're way off base. How are union workers gonna be a part of their own demise. Nurses, hotel workers, police officers, firefighters construction workers are some of the biggest parts of our society. I am a union constuction worker and, I NEVER like to brag but it seems worthy in this post. I make $40/hr wage, have the best health and dental benefits that you could ask for, get an average of $1-$2 raise per hour, per year. There are roughly 30 companies in my local and if I get laid off from one cause work is slow, I have roughly 29 other companies that I can get hired by and no negotiations with pay are necessary. We have an annuity and pension plan that are bar none, no 401-K's. And a lot of our work is companies that the government gives all the big tax breaks to who build brand new multi million dollar buildings to fund their business. How are we as a union going to have our jobs transferred elsewhere when this country gives huge tax breaks to the rich, big businesses? Time to give up your cozy job as a Wal Mart greeter. It isn't helping you.
Well, I'm in a union. And I gotta say, you're way off base. How are union workers gonna be a part of their own demise. Nurses, hotel workers, police officers, firefighters construction workers are some of the biggest parts of our society. I am a union constuction worker and, I NEVER like to brag but it seems worthy in this post. I make $40/hr wage, have the best health and dental benefits that you could ask for, get an average of $1-$2 raise per hour, per year. There are roughly 30 companies in my local and if I get laid off from one cause work is slow, I have roughly 29 other companies that I can get hired by and no negotiations with pay are necessary. We have an annuity and pension plan that are bar none, no 401-K's. And a lot of our work is companies that the government gives all the big tax breaks to who build brand new multi million dollar buildings to fund their business. How are we as a union going to have our jobs transferred elsewhere when this country gives huge tax breaks to the rich, big businesses? Time to give up your cozy job as a Wal Mart greeter. It isn't helping you.
You started by asking a question, and ended up answering it. Unions have been very successful at pricing labor over the top and out of the country.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Your power is your ability to shut down the company, by refusing to work.....that is your power, the ability to shut down the business you are working for. There is more power in that than many people realize I think.
The great thing about my state is that we have "at will" employment. You are free to quit anytime. I am free to dismiss you at any time without cause.
If you start threatening me, you're fired. Unskilled labor is a comodity, and there is a line of people waiting to be hired. If you don't want the job, or don't want to work for what we've already agreed to, then it was fun while it lasted, but I'm going to look elsewhere. Thanks for your past efforts, I wish you well in your future endeavors.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
The great thing about my state is that we have "at will" employment. You are free to quit anytime. I am free to dismiss you at any time without cause.
If you start threatening me, you're fired. Unskilled labor is a comodity, and there is a line of people waiting to be hired. If you don't want the job, or don't want to work for what we've already agreed to, then it was fun while it lasted, but I'm going to look elsewhere. Thanks for your past efforts, I wish you well in your future endeavors.
What about if you do want to work for what was agreed to and then your employer cuts wages by about $4.00 dollars an hour? Is that right?
The company I work for is a work at home employer. They route calls to you and you log into their system(no it's not a chat line ). The wage wasn't that great to begin with but I figured I didn't have to drive to work and the schedule if very flexible so it seemed worth it. Then they outsourced to two other countries since I started working for them and slowly lowered our pay over the last year.
There was an email that went out supposedly by another employee who was upset about the pay drop when it was only about $2.00 drop. It wasn't to everyone at the company only about 20 people were sent the email. She said she was unable to get everyone's. I'm not sure if she was legit.... Only a couple of people responded to her from what I could see from the the cc's.
I would love to talk to a union to see if there was anything they could do to help this situation. But now, It would be hard to find out who my fellow employees are to discuss it with them. They have changed the system so you can no longer view who is working. I am in search of another job, but it's hard with the way the economy is lately.
Well, I'm in a union. And I gotta say, you're way off base. How are union workers gonna be a part of their own demise. Nurses, hotel workers, police officers, firefighters construction workers are some of the biggest parts of our society. I am a union constuction worker and, I NEVER like to brag but it seems worthy in this post. I make $40/hr wage, have the best health and dental benefits that you could ask for, get an average of $1-$2 raise per hour, per year. There are roughly 30 companies in my local and if I get laid off from one cause work is slow, I have roughly 29 other companies that I can get hired by and no negotiations with pay are necessary. We have an annuity and pension plan that are bar none, no 401-K's. And a lot of our work is companies that the government gives all the big tax breaks to who build brand new multi million dollar buildings to fund their business. How are we as a union going to have our jobs transferred elsewhere when this country gives huge tax breaks to the rich, big businesses? Time to give up your cozy job as a Wal Mart greeter. It isn't helping you.
Do they hire women construction workers at your company?? Are they hiring??
The great thing about my state is that we have "at will" employment. You are free to quit anytime. I am free to dismiss you at any time without cause.
If you start threatening me, you're fired. Unskilled labor is a comodity, and there is a line of people waiting to be hired. If you don't want the job, or don't want to work for what we've already agreed to, then it was fun while it lasted, but I'm going to look elsewhere. Thanks for your past efforts, I wish you well in your future endeavors.
Yep, there's tons of illegal immigrants that would do your job, whatever it may be for 1/2 price. So, I'd love to hear this from you when you're standing in the unemplyment line someday wondering why someone who isn't qualified came and took your job away. It's this kind of thinking that got this country into the problems we're in now.
What about if you do want to work for what was agreed to and then your employer cuts wages by about $4.00 dollars an hour? Is that right?
The company I work for is a work at home employer. They route calls to you and you log into their system(no it's not a chat line ). The wage wasn't that great to begin with but I figured I didn't have to drive to work and the schedule if very flexible so it seemed worth it. Then they outsourced to two other countries since I started working for them and slowly lowered our pay over the last year.
There was an email that went out supposedly by another employee who was upset about the pay drop when it was only about $2.00 drop. It wasn't to everyone at the company only about 20 people were sent the email. She said she was unable to get everyone's. I'm not sure if she was legit.... Only a couple of people responded to her from what I could see from the the cc's.
I would love to talk to a union to see if there was anything they could do to help this situation. But now, It would be hard to find out who my fellow employees are to discuss it with them. They have changed the system so you can no longer view who is working. I am in search of another job, but it's hard with the way the economy is lately.
Do they hire women construction workers at your company?? Are they hiring??
Yes, the union I work in hires women and we have about 20 or so working at this time. We hire once a year and it is open employment. All you need is a high school diploma or GED and take a aptitude test.
Yes, the union I work in hires women and we have about 20 or so working at this time. We hire once a year and it is open employment. All you need is a high school diploma or GED and take a aptitude test.
If it gets worse here. I may be checking that out. Thanks
You don't have to move to find a union job. My union here has locals all over the US and Canada that pays all their workers the prevailing wage in the area. Also, there are many trades to choose from. Just go online and find local unions in your area. Hope this helps and sorry I don't have any links at the moment.
The great thing about my state is that we have "at will" employment. You are free to quit anytime. I am free to dismiss you at any time without cause.
If you start threatening me, you're fired. Unskilled labor is a comodity, and there is a line of people waiting to be hired. If you don't want the job, or don't want to work for what we've already agreed to, then it was fun while it lasted, but I'm going to look elsewhere. Thanks for your past efforts, I wish you well in your future endeavors.
In every workforce it's hard to find two people with the same level of committment. Do you reward any of your workers for being more committed and loyal than say your 'normal workers'?
The great thing about my state is that we have "at will" employment. You are free to quit anytime. I am free to dismiss you at any time without cause.
If you start threatening me, you're fired. Unskilled labor is a comodity, and there is a line of people waiting to be hired. If you don't want the job, or don't want to work for what we've already agreed to, then it was fun while it lasted, but I'm going to look elsewhere. Thanks for your past efforts, I wish you well in your future endeavors.
'at will employment' actually isn't such a "great thing" for the working class. Great for you I'm sure.
thing is, if, and this isn't really an 'if', its when an employer starts to abuse the employees he has hired-and that can range from anything to not paying them overtime (something I had to deal with) to not honoring worker's comp to changing the hours whenever they feel like it-when these things start to happen, in an 'at will' employment situation, the workers have no one to go to guarantee their rights. They have no choice but to obey, because their employer can fire them at any time.
Even at an at will employment situation I encourage employees to organize, again, if no one comes to work tomorrow they don't have a business.
Unions have destroyed industry in the United States. Particularly the auto industry where due to the pissing and moaning of American workers quality went to shit and Japan and Korea blew past everyone. I only buy Toyota and Honda because they, you know, actually still run after 5 years.
So this life is sacrifice...
6/30/98 Minneapolis, 10/8/00 East Troy (Brrrr!), 6/16/03 St. Paul, 6/27/06 St. Paul
Unions have destroyed industry in the United States. Particularly the auto industry where due to the pissing and moaning of American workers quality went to shit and Japan and Korea blew past everyone. I only buy Toyota and Honda because they, you know, actually still run after 5 years.
Pissing and moaning, huh? I seem to recall not long ago that GM wanted to eliminate the pensions of all their assembly line workers to dig the company out of a financial jam. Wouldn't you bitch if you were one of them? You work all your life so you'll be protected when you retire and because of a few bad corporate decisions, you're fucked. Seems like corporate greed is what is destroying industry in the US, not the workers. Toyota and Honda are made by union workers in the US, by the way, so you just fucked up your whole argument.
I watched Battle In Seattle last night (Roland started a thread about it)...
It reminded me of this thread...
The Seattle WTO protests were an example of how organized labour can work to uphold the peoples' rights, and the impact it can have when it puts it's weight behind a cause...
The threat of a general strike hastened the illegaly-held protesters release. The sheer number of protesters is what made the protest a success (from an anti-globalism standpoint), numbers that would not have been possible without the unions.
Pissing and moaning, huh? I seem to recall not long ago that GM wanted to eliminate the pensions of all their assembly line workers to dig the company out of a financial jam. Wouldn't you bitch if you were one of them? You work all your life so you'll be protected when you retire and because of a few bad corporate decisions, you're fucked. Seems like corporate greed is what is destroying industry in the US, not the workers. Toyota and Honda are made by union workers in the US, by the way, so you just fucked up your whole argument.
The union largely got them in that position! That and poor decision making by management, and the CRIPPLING pension plan liabilities. Unions served their purpose a long time ago. Now they are crippling the auto industry. I think the main reasons people seem to dislike unions are the union managment is corrupt, sloppy workmanship, and horrible employees that can't be fired. When I was in high school I paid union dues to be able to earn $5.50 bagging groceries. Ha. Thanks for that opportunity unions!
People should live like their pension plans will be zero. Take some personal responsibility and save accordingly.
Seems like corporate greed is what is destroying industry in the US, not the workers. Toyota and Honda are made by union workers in the US, by the way, so you just fucked up your whole argument.
Which Toyota and Honda plants are union? I'm having trouble finding anything on the internet that doesn't state they have no union plants. This article from 2007 states that no Asian automaker has a UAW union plant.
Pissing and moaning, huh? I seem to recall not long ago that GM wanted to eliminate the pensions of all their assembly line workers to dig the company out of a financial jam. Wouldn't you bitch if you were one of them? You work all your life so you'll be protected when you retire and because of a few bad corporate decisions, you're fucked. Seems like corporate greed is what is destroying industry in the US, not the workers. Toyota and Honda are made by union workers in the US, by the way, so you just fucked up your whole argument.
Personally if my choices were a job with no pension or no job at all I would probably choose the job with no pension since at least it is better then being unemployed. Especially if I did assembly line work which was developed so that people can work on them with as little training as possible, since it is not like my skills can easily transfer to many other jobs. But unions don't seem to realize that these days those are the two options. Gone are the days when you can walk off the job and the company will lose so much in lost production that they will accept your demands. Then again the union president gets paid either way right?
Not me. I have just as many shares as I did a few weeks ago. And this week when my 401K money goes in, I'll buy more shares than I did last time.
Lucky you. I personally know about 3 people who have taken a bath in what's been going on. Hopefully it gets better for everyone else before it gets worse. Good luck on your share buying and hopefully it turns out to be a good investment.
The problem with this attitude is the fact that by inviting in a Union you are actually losing your individual voice. You are taking away the ability for a company to deal with employee's individual issues/concerns on an individual basis, instead they must create rules for all to follow rather than guide by a set of principles. That is one of my biggest reasons for not liking unions. Work with them a while and you see many more...
Comments
They're inflating the cost of low-skill jobs (and all other union jobs) to the point where the companies basically can't afford to compete globally without sending the jobs elsewhere.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I could have just quoted this as my response.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
It's not like a lender is giving you a business loan and expecting you to make payments on it with your minimum wage job. The business will be your income. Do some quick research on starting a business.
Well, I'm in a union. And I gotta say, you're way off base. How are union workers gonna be a part of their own demise. Nurses, hotel workers, police officers, firefighters construction workers are some of the biggest parts of our society. I am a union constuction worker and, I NEVER like to brag but it seems worthy in this post. I make $40/hr wage, have the best health and dental benefits that you could ask for, get an average of $1-$2 raise per hour, per year. There are roughly 30 companies in my local and if I get laid off from one cause work is slow, I have roughly 29 other companies that I can get hired by and no negotiations with pay are necessary. We have an annuity and pension plan that are bar none, no 401-K's. And a lot of our work is companies that the government gives all the big tax breaks to who build brand new multi million dollar buildings to fund their business. How are we as a union going to have our jobs transferred elsewhere when this country gives huge tax breaks to the rich, big businesses? Time to give up your cozy job as a Wal Mart greeter. It isn't helping you.
9/29/04 Boston, 6/28/08 Mansfield, 8/23/09 Chicago, 5/15/10 Hartford
5/17/10 Boston, 10/15/13 Worcester, 10/16/13 Worcester, 10/25/13 Hartford
8/5/16 Fenway, 8/7/16 Fenway
EV Solo: 6/16/11 Boston, 6/18/11 Hartford,
You started by asking a question, and ended up answering it. Unions have been very successful at pricing labor over the top and out of the country.
The great thing about my state is that we have "at will" employment. You are free to quit anytime. I am free to dismiss you at any time without cause.
If you start threatening me, you're fired. Unskilled labor is a comodity, and there is a line of people waiting to be hired. If you don't want the job, or don't want to work for what we've already agreed to, then it was fun while it lasted, but I'm going to look elsewhere. Thanks for your past efforts, I wish you well in your future endeavors.
What about if you do want to work for what was agreed to and then your employer cuts wages by about $4.00 dollars an hour? Is that right?
The company I work for is a work at home employer. They route calls to you and you log into their system(no it's not a chat line
There was an email that went out supposedly by another employee who was upset about the pay drop when it was only about $2.00 drop. It wasn't to everyone at the company only about 20 people were sent the email. She said she was unable to get everyone's. I'm not sure if she was legit.... Only a couple of people responded to her from what I could see from the the cc's.
I would love to talk to a union to see if there was anything they could do to help this situation. But now, It would be hard to find out who my fellow employees are to discuss it with them. They have changed the system so you can no longer view who is working. I am in search of another job, but it's hard with the way the economy is lately.
Do they hire women construction workers at your company?? Are they hiring??
want to be enlightened"
Yep, there's tons of illegal immigrants that would do your job, whatever it may be for 1/2 price. So, I'd love to hear this from you when you're standing in the unemplyment line someday wondering why someone who isn't qualified came and took your job away. It's this kind of thinking that got this country into the problems we're in now.
9/29/04 Boston, 6/28/08 Mansfield, 8/23/09 Chicago, 5/15/10 Hartford
5/17/10 Boston, 10/15/13 Worcester, 10/16/13 Worcester, 10/25/13 Hartford
8/5/16 Fenway, 8/7/16 Fenway
EV Solo: 6/16/11 Boston, 6/18/11 Hartford,
Yes, the union I work in hires women and we have about 20 or so working at this time. We hire once a year and it is open employment. All you need is a high school diploma or GED and take a aptitude test.
9/29/04 Boston, 6/28/08 Mansfield, 8/23/09 Chicago, 5/15/10 Hartford
5/17/10 Boston, 10/15/13 Worcester, 10/16/13 Worcester, 10/25/13 Hartford
8/5/16 Fenway, 8/7/16 Fenway
EV Solo: 6/16/11 Boston, 6/18/11 Hartford,
want to be enlightened"
Massachusetts. The union is in Boston.
9/29/04 Boston, 6/28/08 Mansfield, 8/23/09 Chicago, 5/15/10 Hartford
5/17/10 Boston, 10/15/13 Worcester, 10/16/13 Worcester, 10/25/13 Hartford
8/5/16 Fenway, 8/7/16 Fenway
EV Solo: 6/16/11 Boston, 6/18/11 Hartford,
want to be enlightened"
You don't have to move to find a union job. My union here has locals all over the US and Canada that pays all their workers the prevailing wage in the area. Also, there are many trades to choose from. Just go online and find local unions in your area. Hope this helps and sorry I don't have any links at the moment.
9/29/04 Boston, 6/28/08 Mansfield, 8/23/09 Chicago, 5/15/10 Hartford
5/17/10 Boston, 10/15/13 Worcester, 10/16/13 Worcester, 10/25/13 Hartford
8/5/16 Fenway, 8/7/16 Fenway
EV Solo: 6/16/11 Boston, 6/18/11 Hartford,
thing is, if, and this isn't really an 'if', its when an employer starts to abuse the employees he has hired-and that can range from anything to not paying them overtime (something I had to deal with) to not honoring worker's comp to changing the hours whenever they feel like it-when these things start to happen, in an 'at will' employment situation, the workers have no one to go to guarantee their rights. They have no choice but to obey, because their employer can fire them at any time.
Even at an at will employment situation I encourage employees to organize, again, if no one comes to work tomorrow they don't have a business.
Labor runs this country, not managers and owners.
6/30/98 Minneapolis, 10/8/00 East Troy (Brrrr!), 6/16/03 St. Paul, 6/27/06 St. Paul
Pissing and moaning, huh? I seem to recall not long ago that GM wanted to eliminate the pensions of all their assembly line workers to dig the company out of a financial jam. Wouldn't you bitch if you were one of them? You work all your life so you'll be protected when you retire and because of a few bad corporate decisions, you're fucked. Seems like corporate greed is what is destroying industry in the US, not the workers. Toyota and Honda are made by union workers in the US, by the way, so you just fucked up your whole argument.
9/29/04 Boston, 6/28/08 Mansfield, 8/23/09 Chicago, 5/15/10 Hartford
5/17/10 Boston, 10/15/13 Worcester, 10/16/13 Worcester, 10/25/13 Hartford
8/5/16 Fenway, 8/7/16 Fenway
EV Solo: 6/16/11 Boston, 6/18/11 Hartford,
It reminded me of this thread...
The Seattle WTO protests were an example of how organized labour can work to uphold the peoples' rights, and the impact it can have when it puts it's weight behind a cause...
The threat of a general strike hastened the illegaly-held protesters release. The sheer number of protesters is what made the protest a success (from an anti-globalism standpoint), numbers that would not have been possible without the unions.
The union largely got them in that position! That and poor decision making by management, and the CRIPPLING pension plan liabilities. Unions served their purpose a long time ago. Now they are crippling the auto industry. I think the main reasons people seem to dislike unions are the union managment is corrupt, sloppy workmanship, and horrible employees that can't be fired. When I was in high school I paid union dues to be able to earn $5.50 bagging groceries. Ha. Thanks for that opportunity unions!
People should live like their pension plans will be zero. Take some personal responsibility and save accordingly.
Which Toyota and Honda plants are union? I'm having trouble finding anything on the internet that doesn't state they have no union plants. This article from 2007 states that no Asian automaker has a UAW union plant.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/06/10/bloomberg/10sxuaw.php
Personally if my choices were a job with no pension or no job at all I would probably choose the job with no pension since at least it is better then being unemployed. Especially if I did assembly line work which was developed so that people can work on them with as little training as possible, since it is not like my skills can easily transfer to many other jobs. But unions don't seem to realize that these days those are the two options. Gone are the days when you can walk off the job and the company will lose so much in lost production that they will accept your demands. Then again the union president gets paid either way right?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Yep, and the real world seems to be in the shitter according to Wall St. stocks.
9/29/04 Boston, 6/28/08 Mansfield, 8/23/09 Chicago, 5/15/10 Hartford
5/17/10 Boston, 10/15/13 Worcester, 10/16/13 Worcester, 10/25/13 Hartford
8/5/16 Fenway, 8/7/16 Fenway
EV Solo: 6/16/11 Boston, 6/18/11 Hartford,
Not me. I have just as many shares as I did a few weeks ago. And this week when my 401K money goes in, I'll buy more shares than I did last time.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Lucky you. I personally know about 3 people who have taken a bath in what's been going on. Hopefully it gets better for everyone else before it gets worse. Good luck on your share buying and hopefully it turns out to be a good investment.
9/29/04 Boston, 6/28/08 Mansfield, 8/23/09 Chicago, 5/15/10 Hartford
5/17/10 Boston, 10/15/13 Worcester, 10/16/13 Worcester, 10/25/13 Hartford
8/5/16 Fenway, 8/7/16 Fenway
EV Solo: 6/16/11 Boston, 6/18/11 Hartford,