Maximum Wage

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  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    soulsinging wrote:
    now you're just a charicature.

    I've kept a completely consistent ideology here.
    i could easily do a similarly ridiculous extreme about how you're entitled to be richer than god, pay people pennies (kinda like taiwan maybe?) and if people starve... well, they shoulda worked harder and done better in school.

    Knock yourself out.
    we both know it's not quite that simple.

    See, that's the thing: it is simple.
  • LifeWasted21
    LifeWasted21 Posts: 149
    farfromglorified wrote:
    I'm very serious. What right do you have to earn more than $50,000 per year without the rest of us approving?

    are you serious?
  • sonicreducer
    sonicreducer Posts: 713
    people don't like things they can't comprehend
    you're a real hooker. im gonna slap you in public.
    ~Ron Burgundy
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    LifeWasted21 wrote:
    are you serious?

    How do you have a right to make any amount of money without the approval of the majority of Americans?
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    farfromglorified wrote:
    See, that's the thing: it is simple.

    it is eh? so you're saying you completely support people starving on the streets? that factories should not be safe and if anyone is ever killed on a job anywhere... tough shit, they didnt have to work there? if a boss feels like whipping his employees to up their production... he should be allowed to do so becos they work there voluntarily? if he doesn't feel like paying his workers after they've done their work... he's free to do so becos if they don't like his policies they can always find another job?
  • LifeWasted21
    LifeWasted21 Posts: 149
    farfromglorified wrote:
    How do you have a right to make any amount of money without the approval of the majority of Americans?

    Why do you feel that people who make money are selfish, self absorbed, money grubbers?

    my dad started the company by walking door to door and kncoking on peopls doors. 30 year slater he has a successful real estate appraisal company and makes solid money> pays his taxes, raises 4 kids, HELPS put them through college, gets up everyday, 7 days a week and works 10 hours a day, gets lcancer in his knee, continunes working to pay that off and other debt, he makes 90,000 - 150,000 a year...

    you saying he shouldnt be able to do that?

    p.s im not a repbulican, so calm down.

    thats horeshit. Some people get up and work very hard for their money. This viewpoit that anybody who makes good money just sits there and watches it rolls in while they rip everyone off is so fucking ignorant.

    Sure, some people dont have those opportunities that i do. but my dad worked really fucking hard to provide for his family and giv eopportunities that he didn't. now i take advantag eof those and hopefully i can do even better for my children.
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    LifeWasted21 wrote:
    Why do you feel that people who make money are selfish, self absorbed, money grubbers?

    my dad started the company by walking door to door and kncoking on peopls doors. 30 year slater he has a successful real estate appraisal company and makes solid money> pays his taxes, raises 4 kids, HELPS put them through college, gets up everyday, 7 days a week and works 10 hours a day, gets lcancer in his knee, continunes working to pay that off and other debt, he makes 90,000 - 150,000 a year...

    you saying he shouldnt be able to do that?

    p.s im not a repbulican, so calm down.

    thats horeshit. Some people get up and work very hard for their money. This viewpoit that anybody who makes good money just sits there and watches it rolls in while they rip everyone off is so fucking ignorant.

    Sure, some people dont have those opportunities that i do. but my dad worked really fucking hard to provide for his family and giv eopportunities that he didn't. now i take advantag eof those and hopefully i can do even better for my children.

    if taxes were higher college would be free, he'd have health insurance to take care of his cancer, and he wouldnt have to work 70 hours per week and you could enjoy actually spending time with your dad.
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    LifeWasted21 wrote:
    Why do you feel that people who make money are selfish, self absorbed, money grubbers?

    Because they don't give it to the community. They know nothing of compromise. They refuse to cooperate.
    my dad started the company by walking door to door and kncoking on peopls doors. 30 year slater he has a successful real estate appraisal company and makes solid money> pays his taxes, raises 4 kids, HELPS put them through college, gets up everyday, 7 days a week and works 10 hours a day, gets lcancer in his knee, continunes working to pay that off and other debt, he makes 90,000 - 150,000 a year...

    you saying he shouldnt be able to do that?

    Your dad can continue doing all of those things, except he can't make 90-150k a year. Anything over 50k must be given to the government so that other kids can go through college. Those kids are your dad's responsibility too.
    thats horeshit. Some people get up and work very hard for their money. This viewpoit that anybody who makes good money just sits there and watches it rolls in while they rip everyone off is so fucking ignorant.

    It isn't their money. It's our money.
    Sure, some people dont have those opportunities that i do. but my dad worked really fucking hard to provide for his family and giv eopportunities that he didn't. now i take advantag eof those and hopefully i can do even better for my children.

    But can you tell me why those opportunities are yours and not mine?
  • LifeWasted21
    LifeWasted21 Posts: 149
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Because they don't give it to the community. They know nothing of compromise. They refuse to cooperate.



    Your dad can continue doing all of those things, except he can't make 90-150k a year. Anything over 50k must be given to the government so that other kids can go through college. Those kids are your dad's responsibility too.



    It isn't their money. It's our money.



    But can you tell me why those opportunities are yours and not mine?

    cause your dad didnt create the opportunity for you?
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    soulsinging wrote:
    it is eh?

    No. It's simple. The scenario you laid out in your previous post isn't.
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    LifeWasted21 wrote:
    cause your dad didnt create the opportunity for you?

    What my dad did or didn't do is irrelevant. This is about everyone. This is about the common good.

    Are you saying that your dad wanted to create opportunity for you and not me?
  • JOEJOEJOE
    JOEJOEJOE Posts: 10,829
    soulsinging wrote:
    if taxes were higher college would be free, he'd have health insurance to take care of his cancer, and he wouldnt have to work 70 hours per week and you could enjoy actually spending time with your dad.

    Taxes don't have to be TOO much higher, they have to be allocated properly.

    Perhaps the fella's dad likes to work that much. Not everyone goes to work and frets about how much they hate their boss and how little they are paid. Some of us are lucky enough to have an interesting job that provides a sense of enjoyment and accomplishment.

    My dad came here as an immigrant after the Holocaust, worked hard, got married, and put three kids through college, so I feel as if I owe it to him to have a nice life, which is partially attained by earning a good living.

    It would be nice if there was better earning equality in some cases, but those on the lower rungs, if they are able, need to do most of the work if they want to rise-up. Community college is pretty cheap, so if someone REALLY wants to educate themselves, it is a feasible reality!
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    farfromglorified wrote:
    No. It's simple. The scenario you laid out in your previous post isn't.

    course it is. you're talking about overwhelming and authoritarian government intervention. im talking about anarchy. they're both equally ridiculous and far from the center. a wage cap is not the same as the 1984 scenario you're creating, nor is advocation of unrestrained capitalism an invitation to anarchy. they're both ridiculous. my scenario is as simple as yours. you are saying any government regulation of income or business is tyrannical and oppressive. i am saying free market unregulated workplaces is going back to survival of the fittest. both are equally unlikely and we both know they are ridiculous and fall somewhere in the middle.

    i dont think you're giving a fair shake to the ideals you're criticizing. i understand you're going the 'modest proposal' satirical route, but if you're going to continue to argue it you're spreading disinformation and contributing to the problem. clearly, a lot of people here believe you and use it to feed their irrational fear that any progressive tax is tantamount to george orwell style communism. it's as unproductive as the people on the left claiming all business owners are satan's helpers trying to enslave the poor.
  • LifeWasted21
    LifeWasted21 Posts: 149
    farfromglorified wrote:
    What my dad did or didn't do is irrelevant. This is about everyone. This is about the common good.

    Are you saying that your dad wanted to create opportunity for you and not me?


    basically yea, i guess he's a selfish prick. Thanks man!
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    LifeWasted21 wrote:
    basically yea, i guess he's a selfish prick. Thanks man!

    No, thank you, and my apologies for any of this you took seriously. Your father is a good man, from the sound of it. And he deserves every single penny he's earned, because that's what earn means: an exchange where hard work is judged and rewarded by merit.

    Unfortunately, much of that money was taken from your father. And those who took it do not understand the concepts of exchange or of merit. Nor then do they then understand the concept of value, because value is not possible without either of them.
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    soulsinging wrote:
    course it is. you're talking about overwhelming and authoritarian government intervention. im talking about anarchy.

    No you're not. You're talking about violence. So please be careful about lecturing on fear.
  • LifeWasted21
    LifeWasted21 Posts: 149
    farfromglorified wrote:
    No, thank you, and my apologies for any of this you took seriously. Your father is a good man, from the sound of it. And he deserves every single penny he's earned, because that's what earn means: an exchange where hard work is judged and rewarded by merit.

    Unfortunately, much of that money was taken from your father. And those who took it do not understand the concepts of exchange or of merit. Nor then do they then understand the concept of value, because value is not possible without either of them.

    I agree tax money should be used much wiser than it is.
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Thanks to all that played along -- this was fun. And soulsinging was quite right, I do get my jollies from playing the Devil's Advocate.

    In all seriousness, the biggest disappointment I found in last night was the minimum wage hike that was passed in a number of states. Shame on the American public for acting like children in demanding something they did not earn simply because they exist. And shame on those who supported such measures using language like "compromise" and "cooperation", thereby rendering those concepts completely null and void by pretending they have no meaning. Would such people ever suggest that those who make the minimum wage should "compromise" or "cooperate" by accepting the existing standards, or no minimum wage at all? Of course not, since such terms that once required mutual choices and interests now only require the demands of one side.

    To demand that someone owes you more for their labor than they find it to be worth requires a philosophical prerequisite. Namely, you are stating that in any negotiation on value, one person may be entitled to a different set of rights than another, namely the right of violence. You, when you demand a minimum wage, are stating that you have the right to force someone else to accept your assessment of value as opposed to their own which in turn should make you ask, "how long until those others realize they have the same right?" If you, using the armed force of the state, have the right force me to pay you based on your definition of your own value without regard to my own assessment, on what grounds can you then say that I have no right to simply turn the tables and, using the same armed force, make you to work overtime for free or ban you from quitting your position?

    Everything in this world has a value, and your labor is not unique. In a system of free exchange wherein people sell their labor to others who would benefit from it, an honest and equal negotiation is a prerequisite to peace. Why do we recoil from the thought of slavery? Because it violates the basic right of a worker to assign value to their labor and choose an employer and line of work accordingly. Why do we reject from the thought of prescribed employment? Because we will not stand for the will of the worker to be forcefully overriden by the employer. Why then do we not take the same stand on a minimum wage wherein the freedoms of the employer are similarly violated?

    For those of you who go on about "peace", I ask the question: what enforces your minimum wage?

    For those of you who go on about "common good", I ask the question: who pays your minimum wage?

    For those of you who go on about "compromise", I ask the question: what sacrifice to the other party is being made by those who receive that minimum wage?

    And for any of you who dares to use the word "earned", I ask the question: since when can earning something involve the use of force?
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    LifeWasted21 wrote:
    I agree tax money should be used much wiser than it is.

    Yes, it should. More importantly, however, it should be taken much wiser than it is. Meaning that those who take it should understand that they have no inherent right to do so, that they must earn it the same way your father earned it in the first place. They much exchange for it.
  • jeffbr
    jeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    Thanks, FFG. The thread was equally entertaining, enlightening and frightening to me. I hope that anyone who was appalled by your suggestion of a wage cap is also equally appalled by the notion of a minimum wage. I know I am.

    And I hope that people who promote wage controls understand exactly what it is they are endorsing.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08

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