Obama says "CHANGE" and "YES WE CAN"

2

Comments

  • Strangest Tribe
    Strangest Tribe Posts: 2,502
    MattyJoe wrote:
    Where's your proof hotshot?

    If you view it as downplaying that's all you. It's the truth, there is always collateral damage in every conflict.

    It's called Haditha

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_killings

    read about it
    the Minions
  • MattyJoe
    MattyJoe Posts: 1,424
    Strangest Tribe wrote:
    It's called Haditha

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_killings

    read about it

    Ok, that's 24 people. This proves that 1.2 million were DELIBERATELY killed?

    EDIT: Want to mention of course, that the Haditha killings were horrible and mostly unjustified. I fully acknowledge that.
    I pledge to you a government that will not only work well, but wisely, its ability to act tempered by prudence, and its willingness to do good, balanced by the knowledge that government is never more dangerous than when our desire to have it help us blinds us to its great power to harm us.
    -Reagan
  • MattyJoe
    MattyJoe Posts: 1,424
    http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

    Where's the 1.2 million?
    I pledge to you a government that will not only work well, but wisely, its ability to act tempered by prudence, and its willingness to do good, balanced by the knowledge that government is never more dangerous than when our desire to have it help us blinds us to its great power to harm us.
    -Reagan
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    MattyJoe wrote:
    Ok, that's 24 people. This proves that 1.2 million were DELIBERATELY killed?

    EDIT: Want to mention of course, that the Haditha killings were horrible and mostly unjustified. I fully acknowledge that.
    obviously ALL the 1.2 million people weren't deliberately killed, however hundreds of thousands surely were.

    plus, the term 'collateral damage' is one of the biggest pieces of shit term I've ever heard in my life. if I were ever president, I would ban it from use. you can't step into a war and say "it's ok if civilians die, that's how war is."

    fuck that.

    we all know that if any SINGLE country in the world DARED to bomb the U.S. and killed anyone - military or civilian - it would not be considered 'collateral damage' it would be murder, let alone killings like Haditha and Nisoor Square.

    and to say the killings were 'mostly unjustified'? what the fuck does that mean?
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    MattyJoe wrote:
    http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

    Where's the 1.2 million?
    same arguments, as always.

    From their website:
    - IBC records solely violent deaths.

    The 1.2 million figure is done by studies that show who died as a result of the U.S.' invasion and occupation of Iraq.

    http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq/counterexplanation.html
  • MattyJoe
    MattyJoe Posts: 1,424
    _outlaw wrote:
    obviously ALL the 1.2 million people weren't deliberately killed, however hundreds of thousands surely were.

    Surely, eh?
    I pledge to you a government that will not only work well, but wisely, its ability to act tempered by prudence, and its willingness to do good, balanced by the knowledge that government is never more dangerous than when our desire to have it help us blinds us to its great power to harm us.
    -Reagan
  • MattyJoe
    MattyJoe Posts: 1,424
    _outlaw wrote:
    From their website:
    - IBC records solely violent deaths.

    So does the one you posted.

    "Since researchers at Johns Hopkins estimated that 601,000 violent Iraqi deaths were attributable to the U.S.-led invasion as of July 2006, it necessarily does not include Iraqis who have been killed since then. We would like to update this number both to provide a more relevant day-to-day estimate of the Iraqi dead and to emphasize that the human tragedy mounts each day this brutal war continues."

    One group's word against another.

    And IBC is actual documented deaths, not estimates. The data is collected from all different sources with the purpose of being as accurate as possible.
    I pledge to you a government that will not only work well, but wisely, its ability to act tempered by prudence, and its willingness to do good, balanced by the knowledge that government is never more dangerous than when our desire to have it help us blinds us to its great power to harm us.
    -Reagan
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    MattyJoe wrote:
    Surely, eh?
    I suggest you learn to read. even if only (whatever the fuck that means) 100,000 of that 1.2 million deaths were deliberate, that's 25 times more deaths than 9/11. let alone 1,100,000 more that was as a result of the invasion. however for you to make your baseless arguments in this thread, it's nothing more than a sad attempt at justifying the death and destruction our occupation has brought, and is bringing, on the Iraqi people.

    oh, but 'since when did we care about the Iraqi people'
  • Strangest Tribe
    Strangest Tribe Posts: 2,502
    MattyJoe wrote:
    http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

    Where's the 1.2 million?

    this estimate is bodies recovered intact,
    but they still have over estimated million heads arms and legs unidentifiable in a big pile outside bagdad j/k

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

    but there are all these unidentified that haven't been "officially" counted
    the Minions
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    MattyJoe wrote:
    So does the one you posted.

    "Since researchers at Johns Hopkins estimated that 601,000 violent Iraqi deaths were attributable to the U.S.-led invasion as of July 2006, it necessarily does not include Iraqis who have been killed since then. We would like to update this number both to provide a more relevant day-to-day estimate of the Iraqi dead and to emphasize that the human tragedy mounts each day this brutal war continues."

    One group's word against another.

    And IBC is actual documented deaths, not estimates. The data is collected from all different sources with the purpose of being as accurate as possible.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Body_Count#Criticism
  • MattyJoe
    MattyJoe Posts: 1,424
    _outlaw wrote:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Body_Count#Criticism

    It's been criticized both for over AND under counting.
    I pledge to you a government that will not only work well, but wisely, its ability to act tempered by prudence, and its willingness to do good, balanced by the knowledge that government is never more dangerous than when our desire to have it help us blinds us to its great power to harm us.
    -Reagan
  • Strangest Tribe
    Strangest Tribe Posts: 2,502
    it's fucking horrible what we've done

    ..don't try to make excuses
    the Minions
  • NMyTree
    NMyTree Posts: 2,374
    NothingSound wrote:
    Sadly, someone's got to pay for all the shit GWB wasted our money on.

    Tax & spend (Obama) >>>>>>>>> borrow & spend (McCain) >>>>>>>>>>> just spend and cut taxes to your friends (Bush).


    I'm not an Obama supporter at all.

    But I do have a suggestion.

    No matter who becomes president............

    How about all the elitist fuckers and corporations who profitted greatly (all time high profits, that is); pay for all the "changes"?

    How about those fuckers coughing up all the dough to get this country back on track!

    Let's face it, after eight years of this parasitical administration, they are the only ones who can afford to and should kick in the cash.
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    MattyJoe wrote:
    It's been criticized both for over AND under counting.
    check who criticized it for what, it makes a big fucking difference.
  • jhinkle1114
    jhinkle1114 Posts: 212
    http://www.barackobama.com/issues/

    Much more detailed information on the various issues and his plans for dealing with them there. Sorry if someone already linked to that, I had no desire to read on after the first post.
    2000: Pittsburgh
    2006: Camden I & II, DC
    2008: DC, Ed DC II
  • Vince
    Vince Posts: 174
    MattyJoe wrote:

    Obama has served only 1 term in the US Senate, and 1 term in State Senate. In years past, a candidate this inexperienced would've been the first one out of the primaries. It's not his place to even think about running for President.

    Granted that the primary process did not exist during Lincolns time but your point can still be countered considering that Lincoln went on to become one of our greatest Presidents even though his resume lacked the experience you speak of.

    Abraham Lincoln was elected President after serving 8 years in the Illinois State Senate and 2 years as a Congressman.

    Barack Obama served 8 years in the Illinois State Senate and 4 years in the U.S. Senate.
    “Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened.”
  • seanw1010
    seanw1010 Posts: 1,205
    MattyJoe wrote:
    We;re the only thing keeping the country relatively stable right now. It was a mistake to go in, but it would be a much BIGGER mistake to leave.
    are you serious?
    if so, please enlist in the army to help the stability of a country who hates us, and will never stop hating us, by getting killed
    they call them fingers, but i never see them fing. oh, there they go
  • 88keys
    88keys Posts: 151
    _outlaw wrote:
    "collateral damage"? fuck that, these civilians were killed deliberately. don't downplay the deaths of 1.2 million people by saying 'there is always collateral damage'.

    In the history of warfare, going all the way back to the French & Indian War, civilians are always killed whether it is accidentally or deliberately. It sucks, but it comes with the territory. How many innocent civilians do you think were killed during the bombings of London, Berlin, Dresden, Hiroshima & Nagasaki during WWII? The radiation fall-out from Hiroshima and Nagasaki alone probably claimed more lives than the actual H-bombing. The Boston Massacre is probably the most famous case of american (or colonial if you prefer) civilian death at the hands of a foreign military... and that was just for chucking snowballs at some British soldiers.

    I'm not taking sides in this argument, and maybe I'm pointing out the obvious with the civilian death facts, but if wars can be fought with no reprocussions or casualties to the non-military or non-governmental bodies, then what's to prevent anyone from going to war?
    Camden 8/28/1998; Jones Beach 8/24/2000; Camden 9/1/2000; Camden 9/2/2000; Albany 4/29/2003; New York 7/8/2003; Vancouver 9/2/2005; Atlantic City 10/1/2005; Albany 5/12/2006; E. Rutherford 6/1/2006; E. Rutherford 6/3/2006; New York 6/24/2008; New York 6/25/2008; New York 5/20/2010
  • inmytree
    inmytree Posts: 4,741
    acoustic guy wrote:
    Change what???
    Yes we can what??? I have still yet to hear anything solid from this tool.
    And at what cost to the American people?
    A lot of you are forgetting that all this "change" is going to cost big bucks.
    Your Big Bucks.
    The question is how much of it, and can we afford it with the way the economy is right now.
    Think about this before you stick up for yor precious Obama.

    why is McCain going to raise my taxes...?
  • MattyJoe
    MattyJoe Posts: 1,424
    inmytree wrote:
    why is McCain going to raise my taxes...?

    Why does no one ask this same question about Obama, Clinton 1, Clinton 2, Kerry, Pelosi, etc.?
    I pledge to you a government that will not only work well, but wisely, its ability to act tempered by prudence, and its willingness to do good, balanced by the knowledge that government is never more dangerous than when our desire to have it help us blinds us to its great power to harm us.
    -Reagan

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