How is abortion morally ethical.....

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  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    DOSW wrote:
    Making choices for others... it's called a "law."

    Laws against murder prevent the 'choice' to commit murder.
    Laws against stealing prevent the 'choice to steal.
    Et cetera, et cetera.
    But you've yet to explain in any factual or logical way how you arrived at the conclusion that a human embryo is the same thing as a fully developed human being. Until you can, your opinion is merely your opinion and is of no consequence to anyone with a different opinion.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • DOSW
    DOSW Posts: 2,014
    hippiemom wrote:
    But you've yet to explain in any factual or logical way how you arrived at the conclusion that a human embryo is the same thing as a fully developed human being. Until you can, your opinion is merely your opinion and is of no consequence to anyone with a different opinion.

    Page six:
    DOSW wrote:
    I personally could not care less what is or is not human life. In my opinion, that is a completely overblown argument when it comes to abortion.

    A fetus WILL BE a human life, even if it isn't yet. It's like saying a jackpot lottery ticket is worthless because it hasn't been cashed in yet.

    When you have an abortion, you are taking a human life. No amount of attempted rationalization (like 'but it's not a human life yet!') can change that fact.
    It's a town full of losers and I'm pulling out of here to win
  • Hope&Anger
    Hope&Anger Posts: 260
    DOSW wrote:
    I personally could not care less what is or is not human life. In my opinion, that is a completely overblown argument when it comes to abortion.

    A fetus WILL BE a human life, even if it isn't yet. It's like saying a jackpot lottery ticket is worthless because it hasn't been cashed in yet.

    When you have an abortion, you are taking a human life. No amount of attempted rationalization (like 'but it's not a human life yet!') can change that fact.
    Dare I ask about stem cells? Are you willing to destroy embryos to get the stem cells? Are the embryos in freezers also human life?
    "Things will just get better and better even though it
    doesn't feel that way right now. That's the hopeful
    idea . . . Hope didn't get much applause . . .
    Hope! Hope is the underdog!"

    -- EV, Live at the Showbox
  • DOSW
    DOSW Posts: 2,014
    Hope&Anger wrote:
    Dare I ask about stem cells? Are you willing to destroy embryos to get the stem cells? Are the embryos in freezers also human life?

    No. I am all for stem cell research, because those embryos will never become a breathing human being.
    It's a town full of losers and I'm pulling out of here to win
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    DOSW wrote:
    I personally could not care less what is or is not human life. In my opinion, that is a completely overblown argument when it comes to abortion.

    A fetus WILL BE a human life, even if it isn't yet. It's like saying a jackpot lottery ticket is worthless because it hasn't been cashed in yet.

    When you have an abortion, you are taking a human life. No amount of attempted rationalization (like 'but it's not a human life yet!') can change that fact.
    That doesn't explain anything. It is YOUR OPINION that because a fetus will ONE DAY be a human life, that destroying it is the equivalent killing a fully developed human being. I disagree with you, because to me fetus is not NOW a fully developed human being, any more than an egg is a chicken. You've introduced no facts to support your claim that abortion is the same as murdering an independently functioning person.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • DOSW
    DOSW Posts: 2,014
    hippiemom wrote:
    That doesn't explain anything. It is YOUR OPINION that because a fetus will ONE DAY be a human life, that destroying it is the equivalent killing a fully developed human being. I disagree with you, because to me fetus is not NOW a fully developed human being, any more than an egg is a chicken. You've introduced no facts to support your claim that abortion is the same as murdering an independently functioning person.

    Look... it's obviously MY OPINION. If there were any concrete facts in a discussion like this, there would be no debate.

    It's like saying that you need to state facts to support a claim that you don't like chocolate. It's clearly just someone's opinion.

    (and if you ask me, a fertilized chicken egg is equivalent to a chicken...)
    It's a town full of losers and I'm pulling out of here to win
  • chopitdown
    chopitdown Posts: 2,222
    hippiemom wrote:
    That doesn't explain anything. It is YOUR OPINION that because a fetus will ONE DAY be a human life, that destroying it is the equivalent killing a fully developed human being. I disagree with you, because to me fetus is not NOW a fully developed human being, any more than an egg is a chicken. You've introduced no facts to support your claim that abortion is the same as murdering an independently functioning person.


    Is there any reason to believe that a developing fetus won't develop into a human being? Aside from miscarriage (a possible survival adaptation) is there a reason to believe that the cells that are joined at conception won't develop into a human? There is all sorts of evidence that shows the embryonic development of life... which is the hard part of the issue. No one can agree what life is and when life begins. A sperm and egg that join are living cells. Those living cells begin to mature and divide into other living cells. No where along the way has life (rather something being living) ceased or not been; there is always a component of living things in development. It may come down to some people, how much does this cellular organism resemble a human and that's an argument I can accept...I don't agree with it but I can accept that some people feel that since there isn't a heartbeat or liver cells etc... at a very early stage that it's not capable of being an indepently functioning person; I can see that thought process. But I can't see how people can say it may not become human...pregnancy was designed for the reproduction of the species.

    If we don't abort a human fetus (artificially), the odds are that it will become a viable human...I imagine you won't disagree with that...the opinion comes in that it is equivolent to killing an out of womb human being.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    hippiemom wrote:
    That doesn't explain anything. It is YOUR OPINION that because a fetus will ONE DAY be a human life, that destroying it is the equivalent killing a fully developed human being. I disagree with you, because to me fetus is not NOW a fully developed human being, any more than an egg is a chicken. You've introduced no facts to support your claim that abortion is the same as murdering an independently functioning person.


    how is that an opinion? im no doctor but I thought a fetus becomes a human being? we arent born fully grown adults. isnt that a fact?

    and in YOUR opinion a fetus is not a fully developed human being? really doctor?

    so its ok to "murder" a fetus, taking away its chance to grow into a human.


    how about an abortion that is in the late stages of pregnacy? some of those fetuses sure do look human to me.


    im also tired of these chicken and tree examples. yes, its perfectly fine to murder a chicken before it becomes a adult chicken. why? becuase we eat them.
  • callen
    callen Posts: 6,388
    AllNiteThing wrote:
    I can stand them and their opinions, I just can't stand that when we get into these discussions, they can't answer any of the logical questions posed to them in a straightforward manner. I've posed many a logical/philosophical query only to be met with rhetorical answers, evasiveness and smugness.

    reason we must continue to keep asking these seemingly straight forward questions...they are reading..and with all their might resisting contemplating them...but on a subconciouse level..they are indeed processing. Very hard to change inputs from the past...but new inputs do make a difference.

    And remember......we are soooo special. (-:
    Watched a great program on grey whales on PBS yesterday......like to see a human navigate the oceans.... communicate...cool stuff.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • DOSW
    DOSW Posts: 2,014
    callen wrote:
    reason we must continue to keep asking these seemingly straight forward questions...they are reading..and with all their might resisting contemplating them...but on a subconciouse level..they are indeed processing. Very hard to change inputs from the past...but new inputs do make a difference.

    Gee, now that I think about it, you guys are 100% correct in everything you say! :D
    It's a town full of losers and I'm pulling out of here to win
  • callen
    callen Posts: 6,388
    DOSW wrote:
    Gee, now that I think about it, you guys are 100% correct in everything you say! :D

    thats funny....(-; not being sarcastic.

    ...remember....we once thought the earth was flat...we do evolve....ha ha .
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    jlew24asu wrote:
    how is that an opinion? im no doctor but I thought a fetus becomes a human being? we arent born fully grown adults. isnt that a fact?
    Of course it becomes a human being, but destroying it before it is fully developed, before it has a nervous system or consciousness, is not the same as killing a mature being.
    jlew24asu wrote:
    and in YOUR opinion a fetus is not a fully developed human being? really doctor?
    Not, it's not my opinion. It is a FACT that a fetus is not fully developed.
    jlew24asu wrote:
    so its ok to "murder" a fetus, taking away its chance to grow into a human.
    In my opinion, we are under no obligation to allow every fertilized egg to grow to maturity. In my opinion, the word "murder" cannot be used to describe the destruction of a pre-conscious being. And of course, because it is merely my opinion, I don't attempt to compel others to behave in accordance with it. I highly recommend that those who are opposed to abortion refrain from having abortions.
    jlew24asu wrote:
    how about an abortion that is in the late stages of pregnacy? some of those fetuses sure do look human to me.
    Before 20 weeks or so, a fetus doesn't have the ability to feel pain or to comprehend what is happening to it, or even that it exists. Once it has that capacity, my opinion is that abortion is only acceptable to save the life of the mother, or to prevent permanent damage to her health.
    jlew24asu wrote:
    im also tired of these chicken and tree examples. yes, its perfectly fine to murder a chicken before it becomes a adult chicken. why? becuase we eat them.
    Clearly, you aren't comprehending the purpose of the analogies.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    hippiemom wrote:
    Clearly, you aren't comprehending the purpose of the analogies.


    must you always be so condesending. yes I comprehend the purpose of the analogies. I dont think they are useful to this discussion.
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    jlew24asu wrote:
    must you always be so condesending. yes I comprehend the purpose of the analogies. I dont think they are useful to this discussion.
    Your responses to them indicate that you aren't comprehending them.
    jlew24asu wrote:
    im also tired of these chicken and tree examples. yes, its perfectly fine to murder a chicken before it becomes a adult chicken. why? becuase we eat them.
    Once again ... I am not questioning whether or not it's ok to eat eggs. I think that it is. I am asking whether cracking eggs is the same thing as chopping the heads off chickens, whether sweeping up acorns is the same thing as chopping down trees .... not whether they are the same thing as having an abortion.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,830
    hippiemom wrote:
    Your responses to them indicate that you aren't comprehending them.


    Once again ... I am not questioning whether or not it's ok to eat eggs. I think that it is. I am asking whether cracking eggs is the same thing as chopping the heads off chickens, whether sweeping up acorns is the same thing as chopping down trees .... not whether they are the same thing as having an abortion.


    Are you still in here spewing your murderous ways? ;)

    Can't let it go, huh?
    hippiemom = goodness
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    cincybearcat wrote:
    Are you still in here spewing your murderous ways? ;)

    Can't let it go, huh?
    I can't help it ... I don't have much to do yet today and I'm trying to keep my mind off the fact that it's FREEZING in this office. Brrrrrrr.....
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    I guess these discussions really are pointless. not everyone will agree when human life begins.

    I wont be marching either way.

    you want to keep it legal to abort a baby, ok. personally, I cant ever see it being justified, and I'm also not a woman. its not my body we are talking about.


    you want to make it illegal? ok fine. alot more babies will get a chance to live when otherwise they wouldn't
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    jlew24asu wrote:
    I guess these discussions really are pointless. not everyone will agree when human life begins.

    I wont be marching either way.

    you want to keep it legal to abort a baby, ok. personally, I cant ever see it being justified, and I'm also not a woman. its not my body we are talking about.


    you want to make it illegal? ok fine. alot more babies will get a chance to live when otherwise they wouldn't

    and a lot more will end up in the trash, murdered, starved, sexually abused, bounced around a fucked up foster care system, dumb, on welfare, divorced, having more out of wedlock/unwanted kids, etc...
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    soulsinging wrote:
    and a lot more will end up in the trash, murdered, starved, sexually abused, bounced around a fucked up foster care system, dumb, on welfare, divorced, having more out of wedlock/unwanted kids, etc...


    so killing them is justified. what was I thinking
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    jlew24asu wrote:
    so killing them is justified. what was I thinking

    actually, im more a proponent of sterilization for dumb people. but im not getting what i want any time soon. in any case, you statement again assumes abortion is "killing" something, a point we will never see eye to eye on.

    i do have a question though. what about rape? do you think there should be an exception for abortion in cases of rape or incest?

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