Saay NO to violence against women!

fragileblake · November 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

So what is your true agenda? does all your skepticism and centrality go out the window when you could gain popularity by blindly supporting some irrational propaganda?

The fact that you can't just accept that he may just simply disagree with you, without an agenda and not be inferior to you makes you look like the pompous ass that you are.

Ahnimus · November 2007

As she did with many issues, Erin Pizzey recognized very early that domestic violence had nothing to do with the patriarchy. In her book Prone to Violence, she compares violent men from the patriarchal society of Nigeria and the matriarchal society of West India and finds no basic differences. She has also argued that the feminist movement's intent is to destroy families as we know them.

http://www.dvmen.org/dv-40.htm

http://www.bennett.com/ptv

Susan Steinmetz, Ph.D., a leading researcher in the field of family violence, has done a cross-cultural comparison of marital abuse. Using a modified version of the Conflict Tactics Scale (CTS), she examined marital violence in small samples from six societies: Finland, United States, Canada, Puerto Rico, Belize, and Israel. Her results suggest that "...in each society the percentage of husbands who used violence was similar to the percentage of violent wives." The major exception was Puerto Rico where men were more violent. She also found that: "Wives who used violence...tended to use greater amounts."

I can understand if you don't agree with Islam. I don't like it either, I dislike 99% of the beliefs people have. I dislike Christianity, but I can't petition my government to stop it. Let alone petition the Iranian or Nigerian government to give up Islam. The research shows that even in a matriarchal society it's the same thing. Feminists wish that was the cause, but it's not.

Ahnimus · November 2007

fragileblake wrote:

The fact that you can't just accept that he may just simply disagree with you, without an agenda and not be inferior to you makes you look like the pompous ass that you are.

Good one. Except he didn't take the time to really read anything. He just looked for a straw man and used it. That much is pretty obvious.

By the way, you haven't really added anything. It seems like all you do is dish out insults, maybe your the pompous ass. If your so fucking smart and informed why don't you back it up?

prism · November 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

Here are the 2007 stats from Canada

http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepub/85-224-XIE/85-224-XIE2007000.pdf

Interestingly over 2,500 kids were reported to have abused one of their parents.

that shows some stats on over-all family violence. the only DV between partners stats it gives are "Spousal Homicide or attempts and prior police contact for spousal abuse" No where does it give any indication that says that there is as many men that are victims of DV as there are women

however I did find these DV stats comparing female vs. males for the US. here you go: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/intimate/victims.htm

I'm just waiting for you to say that the stats from the US Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics have it all wrong. and only YOUR skewed view of domestic violence is the correct view

Ahnimus · November 2007

prism wrote:

that shows some stats on over-all family violence. the only DV between partners stats it gives are "Spousal Homicide or attempts and prior police contact for spousal abuse" No where does it give any indication that says that there is as many men that are victims of DV as there are women

I never said that was explicitly mentioned in the 2007 stats, but it is in the 2004 as I've already posted. Wtf is your point?

however I did find these DV stats comparing female vs. males for the US. here you go: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/intimate/victims.htm

I'm just waiting for you to say that the stats from the US Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics have it all wrong. and only YOUR skewed view of domestic violence is the correct view

Hold on. I already looked at these stats and commented on the DOJ. These stats are only for percentage of victims of domestic violence in an intimate relationship as opposed to a non-intimate relationship.. It says nothing about the total victims/reports of domestic violence. I criticized the DOJ for not making those statistics public or for not tracking them to begin with.

Look, wake up. When I was a young boy this incident happened where a woman chopped the penis off of her sleeping husband. The overwhelming response from women was "Way to go!" "That's one for us!" and other statements along those lines. That is fucking disgusting and you are still denying that this shit is even a problem. You probably cheered her on too.

prism · November 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

I never said that was explicitly mentioned in the 2007 stats, but it is in the 2004 as I've already posted. Wtf is your point?

Hold on. I already looked at these stats and commented on the DOJ. These stats are only for percentage of victims of domestic violence in an intimate relationship as opposed to a non-intimate relationship.. It says nothing about the total victims/reports of domestic violence. I criticized the DOJ for not making those statistics public or for not tracking them to begin with.

Look, wake up. When I was a young boy this incident happened where a woman chopped the penis off of her sleeping husband. The overwhelming response from women was "Way to go!" "That's one for us!" and other statements along those lines. That is fucking disgusting and you are still denying that this shit is even a problem. You probably cheered her on too.

:rolleyes:

no it doesn't give total numbers. how is it that you figure that these percentages don't count? simple common sense would tell you that DV stats would include those listed as Intimates or Other relatives

Violence between intimates includes -
homicides, rapes, robberies, and assaults committed by intimates.

Intimate relationships involve -
current or former spouses, boyfriends, or girlfriends including same sex relationships.

Intimates are distinguished from -
- other relatives (parent, child, sibling, grandparent, in-law, cousin)
- acquaintances (friend, co-worker, neighbor, schoolmate, someone known)
- strangers (anyone not previously known by the victim)

Domestic violence includes -
intimate partner violence as well as violence between family members

when you consider that gays and lesbians make up from 10 to 13% of the US population; what was that about lesbian partners commiting DV against their partners more often? you might want to read this part:

Nonfatal intimate partner violence is most frequently committed by individuals of opposite genders.

On average from 1993-2004 --

about 97% of females experiencing nonfatal intimate partner violence were victimized by a male and about 2% reported that the offender was another female.

about 84% of males experiencing nonfatal intimate partner violence were victimized by a female and about 12% of males reported that the offender was another male

YOU seem to be the only one asleep here. at no time have i EVER said that DV isn't a problem doesn't go both ways with men as well as women being the perpetrators and the victims. however your contention that women being the perpetrators and men the victims happens at an nearly equal rate as does men being the perpetrators and women the victims, is flat out bullshit.

no, i didn't cheer on Lorena Bobbit. I don't cheer for anyone commiting violence against another person. you have some serious issues if you think there's thousands of Lorena Bobbits running around and men don't sexually mutilate their partners. the fact that it even made the news was because women as the perpetrators of sexaul mutilation against their partners occurs so very rarely.
while on the subject, what about the fact that in many parts of Africa genital mutilation of girls and women is quite common place? where's these equal numbers of women commiting genital mutilation against men??? oh i get it, according to you these men never report it when women hack their penises off?

Ahnimus · November 2007

You contradicted yourself in the first two sentences and everything is incomprehensibly irrelevent.

Ahnimus · November 2007

It's very simple Prism.

DOJ wrote:

This report, supported by the National Institute of Justice and the Bureau of
Justice Statistics, represents an important first step in analyzing what needs to be
done to ensure reliable estimates of the extent and nature of violent crimes
committed against women.

Research on violence against women is gaining unprecedented momentum. We
look forward to continued partnership in using the tools of research and statistics
to improve the way we deal with violence against women and treat women
victims of violent crime.

This is from the DOJ Domestic and Sexual Violence Data Collection. They don't give a shit about gathering statistics about men, this is primarily about gather statistics about violence against women. It's a totally biased approach. The Canadian statistics aren't so exclusive. They don't make statements like "The Violence Against Women Act provides for a fundamental change in our
criminal justice system's response to violent crimes committed against women." at the top of the forward. In-fact, it reads "As part of an ongoing initiative to inform the public about family violence issues, the Canadian Centre for Justice
Statistics produces this annual statistical profile on family violence. The purpose of the report is to provide current
data on the nature and extent of family violence incidents in Canada and to monitor trends over time.".

prism · November 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

You contradicted yourself in the first two sentences and everything is incomprehensibly irrelevent.

the "Spousal Homicide or attempts and prior police contact for spousal abuse" was the only stat regarding DV between Inimate partners that YOU gave. the rest was ONLY about other family members.

the stats in the link I gave would show (though you refuse to acknowledge it)that the stats for both Intimate partners and Other relatives would add up to be DV stats and those stats as they pertain to both male and female victims. as well as opposite and same sex couples

because you've been spounting off falsehoods and don't want to see the truth, that makes what I said incomprehensibly irrelevent??? oh way to dodge the issue and attempt to blame the messenger instead of addressing the facts in the links that i posted.

I hope that if anyone else seems to think that what I've posted is
"incomprehensibly irrelevent' that they make sure to let me know. because I already know that YOU are full of it.

Ahnimus · November 2007

The report also reads

The major finding is that many States are already collecting or are implementing
systems to collect data on domestic and sexual violence offenses. According to
the State survey results, 35 of 47 responding States and Territories collect
domestic violence statistics annually, and 30 respondents gather sexual violence
statistics. But there is wide variation among States that have systems in place or
nearing completion with regard to what information is collected and how it is
gathered.
The variability reflects differences in how States have approached these two
issues and the existing structures for collecting general crime incident data. For
example, some States have passed specific domestic or family violence statutes
that clearly define this as an offense and may even have statewide reporting
requirements. Other States have not designated domestic violence as a separate
offense but have instituted reporting systems for cases that can be characterized
as such. If a State already had an incident-based crime reporting system, then it
may have simply added or derived domestic violence crime statistics from this.
Lacking this capability, other States have had to create domestic violence-specific
reporting systems.

And, lo and behold a large percentage of the statistics originates from Women's Abuse Shelters. Men's Abuse Shelters are non-existent.

Ahnimus · November 2007

prism wrote:

the "Spousal Homicide or attempts and prior police contact for spousal abuse" was the only stat regarding DV between Inimate partners that YOU gave. the rest was ONLY about other family members.

the stats in the link I gave would show (though you refuse to acknowledge it)that the stats for both Intimate partners and Other relatives would add up to be DV stats and those stats as they pertain to both male and female victims. as well as opposite and same sex couples

because you've been spounting off falsehoods and don't want to see the truth, that makes what I said incomprehensibly irrelevent??? oh way to dodge the issue and attempt to blame the messenger instead of addressing the facts in the links that i posted.

I hope that if anyone else seems to think that what I've posted is
"incomprehensibly irrelevent' that they make sure to let me know. because I already know that YOU are full of it.

More feminist propaganda? I just showed that the US statistics are biased as all hell. I've posted the last three years of stats from Canada. What the hell are you talking about?

prism · November 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

The report also reads

And, lo and behold a large percentage of the statistics originates from Women's Abuse Shelters. Men's Abuse Shelters are non-existent.

where are the things that you are attributing to the DofJ in your last two posts appear anywhre on the the Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statics pages? and that this data orginates from Women's Abuse Shelters? come on, lets see the links

this is all i could find that said anything about the data collected. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/intimate/addinfo.htm

prism · November 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

More feminist propaganda? I just showed that the US statistics are biased as all hell. I've posted the last three years of stats from Canada. What the hell are you talking about?

oh give it up. the US Department of Justice is biased against men and only gives out feminist propaganda...alrighty :rolleyes:

Ahnimus · November 2007

prism wrote:

oh give it up. the US Department of Justice is biased against men and only gives out feminist propaganda...alrighty :rolleyes:

Let me ask you this: Why are you so adement about proving me wrong? Do you think if women are abused more it will make them superior? Or it will justify a biased system? What's your agenda?

My agenda is clearly stated. I want equality.

Ahnimus · November 2007

Here is something you should read. It's by Linda Kelly Indiana Law Professor.

Domestic abuse. The term immediately conjures up images nationally
spread through such highly publicized events as the murder
trial of O.J. Simpson and the saga of John and Lorena Bobbit, hit
tunes like Tracy Chapman’s Behind the Wall,1 and movies like Julia
Robert’s Sleeping with the Enemy2 or Farrah Fawcett’s The Burning
Bed.3 Everyone can also tell a more local story about domestic violence,
be it one carried in a hometown newspaper or known about the
neighbors. After a long history of hiding domestic violence behind
closed bedroom doors, everyone now knows all about the existence
and prevalence of domestic violence.4 Or do we? The images we associate
with domestic violence depict the male as batterer and the female
as victim. Yet, despite the critical importance of first acknowledging
and then eradicating the male abuse of women, an equally
important but untold story remains.5 Women can be batterers. Men
can be victims.
Over the last twenty-five years, leading sociologists have repeatedly
found that men and women commit violence at similar rates.
The 1977 assertion that “the phenomenon of husband battering”6 is
as prevalent as wife abuse is confirmed by nationally representative
studies, such as the Family Violence Surveys, as well as by numerous other sources.7 However, despite the wealth and diversity of the sociological
research and the consistency of the findings, female violence
is not recognized within the extensive legal literature on domestic
violence. Instead, the literature consistently suggests that
only men commit domestic violence. Either explicitly, or more often
implicitly, through the failure to address the subject in any objective
manner, female violence is denied, defended and minimized.

Full Text

This is precisely what is happening. If you search google for "domestic violence against men" you immediately get a bunch of sites about it. On the other hand if you suffix it with "site:.gov" to restrict the hits to US government websites, you immediately get the US OVW Office on Violence against Women. Violence against Men is non-existent in governments. The Canadian Health Services doesn't recognize it either. Yet, it does happen. We can argue statistics a long time, but the fact will always remain that any amount of abuse should be recognized.

I've been thinking. The problem is all categorical. All this stuff gets dumped into a bin called "Violence Against Women" which is a very poor definition. Because none of the motivation comes from the fact that the individuals are women. Rape happens to boys too, it happens a lot. People of all genders and ages are coerced into sex. Take MADD Mothers Against Drunk Driving. Why Mothers? Why not People? It fits this stereotypical image we have of families that supports our need for simplicity. But the fundamental fact is that you can't know about everyone's situation. We try to put cute labels on everything but it's wrong in the end. Sometimes I think society likes to interfere a lot with my personal business. I come on here and make a statement and someone responds "Liberal", "Cynical", "Fascist", there is always a label for something I said. It's Everyone Against Everyone Else.

How is it that our general legal understanding of domestic violence
as defined by the male abuse of women is so squarely contradicted
by the empirical reality? Honestly answering this question requires
tracing the history of both the theory and practice of domestic
violence law. Undertaking such an exploration, one quickly finds that
the “discovery” of domestic violence is rooted in the essential feminist
tenet that society is controlled by an all-encompassing patriarchal
structure.8 This fundamental feminist understanding of domestic
violence has far-reaching implications. By dismissing the possibility
of female violence, the framework of legal programs and social norms
is narrowly shaped to respond only to the male abuse of women. Female
batterers cannot be recognized. Male victims cannot be treated.
If we are to truly address the phenomenon of domestic violence, the
legal response to domestic violence and the biases which underlie it
must be challenged.

prism · November 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

Let me ask you this: Why are you so adement about proving me wrong? Do you think if women are abused more it will make them superior? Or it will justify a biased system? What's your agenda?

My agenda is clearly stated. I want equality.

Ahnimus wrote:

Posted by DOJ
This report, supported by the National Institute of Justice and the Bureau of
Justice Statistics, represents an important first step in analyzing what needs to be
done to ensure reliable estimates of the extent and nature of violent crimes
committed against women.

Research on violence against women is gaining unprecedented momentum. We
look forward to continued partnership in using the tools of research and statistics
to improve the way we deal with violence against women and treat women
victims of violent crime.

Ahnimus wrote:

The report also reads

Quote:
The major finding is that many States are already collecting or are implementing
systems to collect data on domestic and sexual violence offenses. According to
the State survey results, 35 of 47 responding States and Territories collect
domestic violence statistics annually, and 30 respondents gather sexual violence
statistics. But there is wide variation among States that have systems in place or
nearing completion with regard to what information is collected and how it is
gathered.
The variability reflects differences in how States have approached these two
issues and the existing structures for collecting general crime incident data. For
example, some States have passed specific domestic or family violence statutes
that clearly define this as an offense and may even have statewide reporting
requirements. Other States have not designated domestic violence as a separate
offense but have instituted reporting systems for cases that can be characterized
as such. If a State already had an incident-based crime reporting system, then it
may have simply added or derived domestic violence crime statistics from this.
Lacking this capability, other States have had to create domestic violence-specific
reporting systems.

And, lo and behold a large percentage of the statistics originates from Women's Abuse Shelters. Men's Abuse Shelters are non-existent.

just as i suspected you didn't get any of that that from the Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statics that you in your posts attributed to them.

what i want is the truth. it's not so much that i'm out to "prove you wrong" it's that i hate seeing people resort to lies and falsehoods in order to try and make some bogus points and try to deflect attention away from an important issue

I don't want women or men to be considered as superior over the other. however when it comes to being victims in matters of DV, rape and sexual assault women are not at all equal to men. I think the first steps to any kind of equality between men and women comes from honestly acknowledging these facts and working on raising awareness and education. as long as people deny these inequalities do in fact exist, people will never get close to approaching actual equality

prism · November 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

Here is something you should read. It's by Linda Kelly Indiana Law Professor.

This is precisely what is happening. If you search google for "domestic violence against men" you immediately get a bunch of sites about it. On the other hand if you suffix it with "site:.gov" to restrict the hits to US government websites, you immediately get the US OVW Office on Violence against Women. Violence against Men is non-existent in governments. The Canadian Health Services doesn't recognize it either. Yet, it does happen. We can argue statistics a long time, but the fact will always remain that any amount of abuse should be recognized.

I've been thinking. The problem is all categorical. All this stuff gets dumped into a bin called "Violence Against Women" which is a very poor definition. Because none of the motivation comes from the fact that the individuals are women. Rape happens to boys too, it happens a lot. People of all genders and ages are coerced into sex. Take MADD Mothers Against Drunk Driving. Why Mothers? Why not People? It fits this stereotypical image we have of families that supports our need for simplicity. But the fundamental fact is that you can't know about everyone's situation. We try to put cute labels on everything but it's wrong in the end. Sometimes I think society likes to interfere a lot with my personal business. I come on here and make a statement and someone responds "Liberal", "Cynical", "Fascist", there is always a label for something I said. It's Everyone Against Everyone Else.

the links I posted didn't come from the OVW. they came from Bureau of Justice Statics which DOES includes stats on Men and Women as victims AND as offenders.

and for the millionth time; yes women DO abuse men but the instances of men abusing women are much greater and are hardly equal. if violence commited by women was equal to that commited by men where are all these women commiting other violent crimes ie child molestion, rape, murder, sexual abuse, armed robbery, burgalry, car-jackings, bank robberies? i mean sure women DO do those things but just like in DV, not nearly at the same rate as men do. I don't give a rat's ass what one law professor claims to the contrary.

Ahnimus · November 2007

prism wrote:

just as i suspected you didn't get any of that that from the Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statics that you in your posts attributed to them.

what i want is the truth. it's not so much that i'm out to "prove you wrong" it's that i hate seeing people resort to lies and falsehoods in order to try and make some bogus points and try to deflect attention away from an important issue

I don't want women or men to be considered as superior over the other. however when it comes to being victims in matters of DV, rape and sexual assault women are not at all equal to men. I think the first steps to any kind of equality between men and women comes from honestly acknowledging these facts and working on raising awareness and education. as long as people deny these inequalities do in fact exist, people will never get close to approaching actual equality

Fuck the statistics at this point. It's a pragmatic issue. Look up Susan Steinmetz and all the other sociological research that has gone into this. Actually read the shit I posted. The evidence is there. But regardless of that any generalization that society holds to be a truth will become a statistical reality. If society in part ignores something then it won't be reflect in stats. Which is exactly my point, you are expecting there to be women rape victims so that's all you will find. John Wayne Gacy raped and murdered 33 boys and young men alone. There is absolutely no defense for the explicit marriage of "rape" and "woman" as terms in society. There is nothing to gain from it but error. Patriarchy is not the problem, I've given evidence of that. It's not even true where I live. The only patriarchy that I know of is the deal with the last name. Women rule just about everything. Behind 99% of a man's actions is a woman. Believe it, I know not one relationship that has a dominant male. Dominant females almost entirely, one or two "traditional" relationships, but the women don't complain, they chose it and can leave any time. Anyway, I'm just disgusted. The degradation of men that is totally explicit. If it's Violence Against Women I wonder who the criminals are :rolleyes:. It could just as easily be STOP RAPE or whatever the real issue is and drop this feminist baggage that's dragging us down.

Uh, CaterineA I'm sorry for getting your thread off-track. I took Jeanie's advice and created a new one for debating this aspect, but it kinda continued here. :(

fragileblake · November 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

Women rule just about everything.

Then why are they paid less on average?

Why in America are they underrepresented in government?

Why has there never been a woman president?

Why are there not an equal number of women on the forbes list?

Ahnimus · November 2007

fragileblake wrote:

Then why are they paid less on average?

Why in America are they underrepresented in government?

Why has there never been a woman president?

Why are there not an equal number of women on the forbes list?

If you think about it, do you really think those figures mean anything?

I've looked into this so-called gender pay gap on more than one occasion and it's difficult to support with evidence. Out of my last three supervisors two of them were women. They make a lot of money. The corporate lawyer for my company is a woman, the CEO of my previous employer was a woman. I don't know what country you live in. It sounds like the US though.

There has never been a woman president because woman's liberation wasn't very long ago and none of won office in a backward's ass country like the United States Of America.

There are not an equal number of women on the forbes list because an equal number of women haven't made the forbes list. That's all you can conclude from it. There could be a lot of reasons ranging from editor bias to maternity leave. A woman could get on the list if she had the mentality of Bill Gates and did absolutely everything he did.

Saay NO to violence against women!

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