A question about Jesus.

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  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    catefrances wrote:
    is that free choice being made without any outside influence and without bias? if not, then tis hardly free choice is it?
    It sounds like to you it's not.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    angelica wrote:
    It sounds like to you it's not.

    not only sounds like it angelica. i KNOW tis not.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    catefrances wrote:
    not only sounds like it angelica. i KNOW tis not.
    You and I see things very differently, obviously.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    angelica wrote:
    You and I see things very differently, obviously.

    what's differently?

    my thinking on free will and choice is that if my will is in opposition to someone else's then all bets are off, cause i am not gonna be able to exercise my free will to get what it is i am seeking because the other person is exercising their free will, which negates mine. :)

    free will works only if all the factors are under your control and life just isnt like that.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • in_hiding79
    in_hiding79 Posts: 4,315
    neither God or Jesus exists!!

    :)
    And so the lion fell in love with the lamb...,"
    "What a stupid lamb."
    "What a sick, masochistic lion."
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    in_hiding79 wrote:
    neither God or Jesus exists!!

    :)

    can i ask why you think jesus doesnt exist? do you think he ever did?
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • dolly rocker
    dolly rocker Long Beach NY Posts: 352
    who cares live for the day...vedder solo album should be the talk of the town...jesus is the man that it plain and simple ....thats all folks............ hard sun is great
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    catefrances wrote:
    what's differently?

    my thinking on free will and choice is that if my will is in opposition to someone else's then all bets are off, cause i am not gonna be able to exercise my free will to get what it is i am seeking because the other person is exercising their free will, which negates mine. :)

    free will works only if all the factors are under your control and life just isnt like that.
    For me, I have no desire to talk about free-will, because spiritual/religious people apparently have a different conception for it than non-believers, and therefore much needless misunderstanding happens in such discussions.

    As for free choice, even if my choices conflict with others, I still make them, freely, whether unconsciously or consciously. To me, freedom is not related to lack to resistance or conflict. If everything were easy and there were no problems or conflict to rise above, the word "freedom" would have no meaning.

    To me, freedom has nothing to do with controlling external or life factors. It's the exact opposite. It's about fully surrendering to one's life. It is only by accepting all aspects of one's life unconditionally, including conflicts and resistance, and including others that one chooses to interact with, that one can find the way to rise above such conflicts. By doing so, the drop of water can also experience being the ocean. The cell can also be the body. It's the short-sighted cancer cell that tries to overtake the cell next to it at the expense of the whole system.

    There is nothing to be gained by fighting/denying/separating from one's very own life--unless one seeks separation, pain and struggle.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    You can't redefine free-will
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • deadnothingbetter
    deadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    Ahnimus wrote:
    You can't redefine free-will
    what other definitions does free-will have?
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    deadnothingbetter wrote:
    what other definitions does free-will have?

    There is only one philosophical definition.

    Freedom to determine what you "will" independently of physical or divine determinants.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    Look, anyone here with a biology degree can tell us that any living thing is basically clockwork. What constitutes a "Living" thing is what we determine to accept as living. We don't think the clouds are alive, though they move. If you break down the components of a single cell, mitochondria, microtubules, etc... what you have is a bunch of non-living gears and pulleys, so to speak. We are "alive" in the sense of a clock powered by solar panels.

    It's not that science says "there is no vital life force (Elan Vital)" it simply says "We don't need it to explain life." Science gets by explaining these things without any skyhooks, without souls and other mysteriam.

    Anyone of you that wants to put a soul or free-will or the like into the equations is doing it solely for selfish reasons. They are non sequiturs. They beg the question and they offer no further explanation or understanding. The concepts are simply out-of-date off-the-shelf rhetoric.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • deadnothingbetter
    deadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Look, anyone here with a biology degree can tell us that any living thing is basically clockwork. What constitutes a "Living" thing is what we determine to accept as living. We don't think the clouds are alive, though they move. If you break down the components of a single cell, mitochondria, microtubules, etc... what you have is a bunch of non-living gears and pulleys, so to speak. We are "alive" in the sense of a clock powered by solar panels.

    It's not that science says "there is no vital life force (Elan Vital)" it simply says "We don't need it to explain life." Science gets by explaining these things without any skyhooks, without souls and other mysteriam.

    Anyone of you that wants to put a soul or free-will or the like into the equations is doing it solely for selfish reasons. They are non sequiturs. They beg the question and they offer no further explanation or understanding. The concepts are simply out-of-date off-the-shelf rhetoric.
    so that's it? we're just basic routing functions in this system we call life?
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • deadnothingbetter
    deadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    Ahnimus wrote:
    There is only one philosophical definition.

    Freedom to determine what you "will" independently of physical or divine determinants.
    oh yeah.... like the drama movie i picked out.
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    deadnothingbetter wrote:
    so that's it? we're just basic routing functions in this system we call life?

    The most poetic description of what we are, I heard from a scientifically minded pick-up artist. "We are patterns in nature. Like a song."
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • deadnothingbetter
    deadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    Ahnimus wrote:
    The most poetic description of what we are, I heard from a scientifically minded pick-up artist. "We are patterns in nature. Like a song."
    but that's depressing, man.
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    deadnothingbetter wrote:
    but that's depressing, man.

    Not really.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    What I find depressing is that this goes under the radar. People by enlarge subscribe to the belief in free-will and souls. The consequences are war and hatred and so on.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    "I dare be positive no one will ever endeavour to refute these reasonings
    otherwise than by altering my definitions, and assigning a different
    meaning to the terms of cause, and effect, and necessity, and liberty,
    and chance. According to my definitions, necessity makes an essential
    part of causation; and consequently liberty, by removing necessity,
    removes also causes, and is the very same thing with chance. As chance is
    commonly thought to imply a contradiction, and is at least directly
    contrary to experience, there are always the same arguments against
    liberty or free-will. If any one alters the definitions, I cannot pretend
    to argue with him, until I know the meaning he assigns to these terms.
    "
    A Treatise of Human Nature - Hume, David, 1711-1776

    Full Text
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • deadnothingbetter
    deadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Not really.
    yeah it is.
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.

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