On July 4, Put Away Your Flags

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  • yosi1
    yosi1 Posts: 3,272
    MLC2006 wrote:
    that is true. the forefathers of this country intended that the citizens should overthrow the government if/when it became to powerful or too corrupt. unfortunately, through the decades, we have allowed the government to do exactly that and now they are far to powerful to be overthrown by us. I still am very proud to be an American, I just hate our government. too often though, "America" and "American government" are used as interchangeable terms, and they shouldn't be.

    I think I pretty much agree. People often assume that saying one is proud to be an American, means that we condone everything our country/government has done, and are proud of everything that our country/government does. Which in my opinion is not the case.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442.html
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • yosi1
    yosi1 Posts: 3,272
    Ahnimus wrote:
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442.html

    While that is horrible, its not the same as saying the US killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. I'm not saying that to make the death's any less significant. Because either way its horrible, but I wouldn't entirely blame the US for that.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    MLC2006 wrote:
    nationalism doesn't cause war and mass murder, corrupt egomaniacal governments do.
    ...
    I think the German Jews of 1936 would take issue with this.
    National Pride and the belief that they would become a Superior Race to lead Europe and the world for a thousand years lead them to exterminate Jews, Slavs and Gypsies. It was the German people that turned in Jews, loaded them into box cars and into gas chambers. Hitler didn't do all of this by himself.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • yosi1
    yosi1 Posts: 3,272
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    I think the German Jews of 1936 would take issue with this.
    National Pride and the belief that they would become a Superior Race to lead Europe and the world for a thousand years lead them to exterminate Jews, Slavs and Gypsies. It was the German people that turned in Jews, loaded them into box cars and into gas chambers. Hitler didn't do all of this by himself.

    Thats what I was alluding to a couple of posts back.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    I think the German Jews of 1936 would take issue with this.
    National Pride and the belief that they would become a Superior Race to lead Europe and the world for a thousand years lead them to exterminate Jews, Slavs and Gypsies. It was the German people that turned in Jews, loaded them into box cars and into gas chambers. Hitler didn't do all of this by himself.

    http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=4577079&postcount=60
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Eliot Rosewater
    Eliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    yosi wrote:
    Granted, no one should be taught that the country is perfect, far from it. But its also not good to teach children that this country is terrible.
    What about teaching kids the truth? The good with the bad? That's one of my biggest problems - The truth is often hidden and the truth is sometimes terrible. Does doing terrible things make this a terrible country?
  • yosi1
    yosi1 Posts: 3,272
    don't gimme no wrote:
    What about teaching kids the truth? The good with the bad? That's one of my biggest problems - The truth is often hidden and the truth is sometimes terrible. Does doing terrible things make this a terrible country?

    I agree. Kids need to be taught the truth, but not everything needs to be taught in grade school. Leave some of the uglier stuff for highschool.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
  • Eliot Rosewater
    Eliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    know1 wrote:
    No - I'm asking the right person. You're the one claiming that part of the reason Americans believe they are morally superior is that they were taught that as children. If you do not believe in Santa Claus, then you're living proof of my point - that we do not have to believe all that we did or were taught as children.

    (and everyone has morals)
    But the secret of santa clause is enveiled. No one ever comes out and teaches our children that this country has done some absolutely horrific things and shouldn't be considered morally superior.
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    don't gimme no wrote:
    But the secret of santa clause is enveiled. No one ever comes out and teaches our children that this country has done some absolutely horrific things and shouldn't be considered morally superior.

    Zinn does.

    You need to get over thinking that everyone needs to be taught. People form opinions for a variety of reasons and a multitude of very diverse experiences and knowledge.

    You don't believe everything you hear or read do you? (and I know that you don't from your other replies, so that just strengthens my point)
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • yosi1
    yosi1 Posts: 3,272
    don't gimme no wrote:
    But the secret of santa clause is enveiled. No one ever comes out and teaches our children that this country has done some absolutely horrific things and shouldn't be considered morally superior.

    No one, or in your experience?
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
  • Eliot Rosewater
    Eliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    surferdude wrote:
    I hope you voiced your displeasure at the time. Stood up and told people that Americans shouldn't feel good about themselves. Denounce the false history they've all been taught. To recognize your words of wisdom as they are coming from a morally superior person.
    I absolutely voiced my displeasure. It wouldn't have been appropriate at the time. But I wrote a letter to the editor of the local paper. Never got published and never got a response, but I still voiced my opinion.

    btw, I've never claimed to be morally superior. But thanks for taking a shot at me.
  • Eliot Rosewater
    Eliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    yosi wrote:
    While that is horrible, its not the same as saying the US killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. I'm not saying that to make the death's any less significant. Because either way its horrible, but I wouldn't entirely blame the US for that.
    You wouldn't blame the U.S. entirely for that but how about even 1/2 the blame? Or even 1/3? Because that's all the blame I need to make my above post accurate.
  • Eliot Rosewater
    Eliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    know1 wrote:
    Zinn does.

    You need to get over thinking that everyone needs to be taught. People form opinions for a variety of reasons and a multitude of very diverse experiences and knowledge.

    You don't believe everything you hear or read do you? (and I know that you don't from your other replies, so that just strengthens my point)
    You're right. One problem is we're a lazy bunch. People would rather turn on fox news than spend a minute to find some truth.
  • Eliot Rosewater
    Eliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    yosi wrote:
    No one, or in your experience?
    No public schools that I've ever heard of.
  • yosi1
    yosi1 Posts: 3,272
    don't gimme no wrote:
    You wouldn't blame the U.S. entirely for that but how about even 1/2 the blame? Or even 1/3? Because that's all the blame I need to make my above post accurate.

    I don't agree. Even if the US is partly to blame for some of the deaths, it still does not make them as immoral as Saddam's government. Nor does it necessarily make them more immoral than others.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
  • yosi1
    yosi1 Posts: 3,272
    don't gimme no wrote:
    No public schools that I've ever heard of.

    Ok, how many public schools and teachers and classes have you actually gone into and found out exactly what they were teaching?
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
  • Eliot Rosewater
    Eliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    yosi wrote:
    I don't agree. Even if the US is partly to blame for some of the deaths, it still does not make them as immoral as Saddam's government. Nor does it necessarily make them more immoral than others.
    Okay, speaking by the numbers...sorry, that's what I meant. I was saying that even if U.S. and A. was 1/3 to blame for the death of 650,000 iraqi civilians then I was accurate in saying they've killed "hundreds of thousands."
  • Eliot Rosewater
    Eliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    yosi wrote:
    Ok, how many public schools and teachers and classes have you actually gone into and found out exactly what they were teaching?
    Honestly? I have many friends and family members in education. My brother is an experienced elementary school principal. I've had many talks with thim about this. Obviously that doesn't mean a whole lot as there are thousands and thousands of public schools in America, but at least around here, it's pretty clear about promoting America as moral leaders and superiors.
  • yosi1
    yosi1 Posts: 3,272
    don't gimme no wrote:
    Honestly? I have many friends and family members in education. My brother is an experienced elementary school principal. I've had many talks with thim about this. Obviously that doesn't mean a whole lot as there are thousands and thousands of public schools in America, but at least around here, it's pretty clear about promoting America as moral leaders and superiors.

    Ok. I was just trying to point out that you were making a pretty large generalization.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.

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