My point is that if there's a god then he/she certainly knows our intentions. IMO the intent of that song is to further indocterinate the false idea that America is a morally superior nation. That's why it's sung in grade school. The same grade schools that glorify Columbus etc. False history is taught, arrogant songs are sung and mindless allegiances are pledged. All of this is done so when innocent lives are lost by illegal wars that are waged, we can still take pride in our great nation.
So kids in England when they sing God Save the Queen think all other monarchs in the world should die a grisly death?
Or when Canadians sing O Canada they think God should only keep Canada glorious and free?
My point is that if there's a god then he/she certainly knows our intentions. IMO the intent of that song is to further indocterinate the false idea that America is a morally superior nation. That's why it's sung in grade school. The same grade schools that glorify Columbus etc. False history is taught, arrogant songs are sung and mindless allegiances are pledged. All of this is done so when innocent lives are lost by illegal wars that are waged, we can still take pride in our great nation.
What is "false history"? History is just a story of events from a point of view. Columbus is no more "false history" than black history month is? I hope ever country feels a bit of moral superiority, why would you want a country to be anything other than the best it can be. America likes most countries was set up to be better than the previous form of government, a certain feeling of superiority is natural, much like a major league ballplayer feels he's a better player than a AAA ballplayer. In either case they still make errors and hopefully work hard to make fewer in the future.
Are you advocating instilling a sense of moral insecurity in children and students. I could imagine the class "Now kids, today we are going to learn how dumb we are as people and Americans. We will learn why the world would be better off without us."
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
Am I wrong? I was forced to pledge allegiance as a child. I was forced to sing "patriotic" songs as a child, many of which state america is better than other nations. I was taught in public schools that America is morally superior. I believe most were. Are you disagreeing with that?
You were taught that America is "morally superior" to other countries?
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
well, if you think americans don't think they deserve god's blessings more than any other nation than you've come to an outrageous conclusion of your own.
So maybe it's not God Bless ONLY America. But certainly they're asking for more blessings for america than say, Iraq....
As I've said, I've really never heard anyone espouse that America deserved God's blessings anymore than anyone else....nevermind the majority saying that. I know I certainly do not believe that Americans are more deserving.
As I said in the beginning, count me in the camp that thinks nationalism is wrong. That may be the most outrageous conclusion I have on this subject.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Even if I grant you the point that the song gives us a false idea that America is a morally superior nation (which is far different from saying that God would single it out for blessing, but whatever....), it still doesn't mean that every single American is going around humming that 24/7 or repeating it as a mantra. In other words, it's giving the song a lot more credibility than it deserves.
True, not every american is walking around 24/7 repeating it as a mantra. That one's called the pledge of allegiance and it's only on school days. Or the national anthem that's sung in masses at every sporting event etc.
Am I wrong? I was forced to pledge allegiance as a child. I was forced to sing "patriotic" songs as a child, many of which state america is better than other nations. I was taught in public schools that America is morally superior. I believe most were. Are you disagreeing with that?
Well, I'm not sure that I was taught that America is morally superior. At least not explicitly.
The real point is that I believe people can actually rise above what they are taught as children and can choose to form their own, personal conclusions.
You don't still believe in Santa Claus do you?
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
True, not every american is walking around 24/7 repeating it as a mantra. That one's called the pledge of allegiance and it's only on school days. Or the national anthem that's sung in masses at every sporting event etc.
The pledge isn't said by too many people over the age of 12.
The National Anthem doesn't say anything about God.....WHICH is what we were talking about.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Well, I didn't go to public school, so I don't know, but I certainly was not taught this.
It's interesting. I went to my nephews grade school graduation a couple weeks ago. The theme was, "One nation under god". There were a couple of kids speaking, and a couple of teachers, then the principal. Every single talk given was based upon America being morally superior thus deserving god's blessings. Sure, they never said that other nations didn't deserve blessings. But it was very apparent that the message was this: God does bless America because we're morally superior and live in a country that is more free than any other, and that we should continue to lead the world in morality and continue to reap the blessings god grants us by doing so. ....it was disgusting.
You're asking the wrong person. That question needs to be asked to the ones who believe America is morally superior to other nations. Or even believe America is moral at all.
It's interesting. I went to my nephews grade school graduation a couple weeks ago. The theme was, "One nation under god". There were a couple of kids speaking, and a couple of teachers, then the principal. Every single talk given was based upon America being morally superior thus deserving god's blessings. Sure, they never said that other nations didn't deserve blessings. But it was very apparent that the message was this: God does bless America because we're morally superior and live in a country that is more free than any other, and that we should continue to lead the world in morality and continue to reap the blessings god grants us by doing so. ....it was disgusting.
It does sound like the idea of moral superiority needed to be toned down, and that the importance of other countries should have been expressed more. However, keep in mind that it is grade school, and that it might be hard to express to such young kids about all the problems with this country.
Granted, no one should be taught that the country is perfect, far from it. But its also not good to teach children that this country is terrible.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
I hope you voiced your displeasure at the time. Stood up and told people that Americans shouldn't feel good about themselves. Denounce the false history they've all been taught. To recognize your words of wisdom as they are coming from a morally superior person.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
You're asking the wrong person. That question needs to be asked to the ones who believe America is morally superior to other nations. Or even believe America is moral at all.
No - I'm asking the right person. You're the one claiming that part of the reason Americans believe they are morally superior is that they were taught that as children. If you do not believe in Santa Claus, then you're living proof of my point - that we do not have to believe all that we did or were taught as children.
(and everyone has morals)
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Personally... I don't see anything wrong with National Pride. I love my country, America. I love the principles she was founded upon.
Do I believe she is perfect? No. Do I support everything she does and has done in the past? No. I know we have faults and i am the first to admit to and own them. In doing so, i hope that we learn from and do not repeat them... but... we do.
I love the National anthem... mostly because it reminds me of baseball. I also love the Canadian National anthem because it reminds me of Hockey... and the French National anthem because of that scene in 'Casablanca'. But, I don't expect very one to agree with me about it... that's what America (the principle, as opposed to the country) means to me. People find more meaning in a National Anthem and either love it or hate it for whatever reasons... that's their gig, not mine. I will still feel the same about it... personally, I prefer 'America, The Beautiful'. i know the God reference in it... but, Christianity isn't the only religion who believes in God. And even hellbound guys like me believe there is something greater than ourselves out there... just not that petty, narcissistic Guy portrayed in the Bible. The song just sounds nicer to me and point towards things like purple mountains and shining seas... and brotherhood... things that are supposed to make us American.
Finally, I don't think we are any better or worse than any other country. To point at our wealth or military as reasons... well, i would see that as a reflection of me... and I don't think money and destructions are what I'm all about. I believe other countries are different... I say, live and let live. i don't expect them to be like me, just as I will probably not want to be like them.
Nationalism isn't such a bad thing, unless it is taken to extreme. And anything taken to extreme is bad... in my book.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Personally... I don't see anything wrong with National Pride. I love my country, America. I love the principles she was founded upon.
Do I believe she is perfect? No. Do I support everything she does and has done in the past? No. I know we have faults and i am the first to admit to and own them. In doing so, i hope that we learn from and do not repeat them... but... we do.
I love the National anthem... mostly because it reminds me of baseball. I also love the Canadian National anthem because it reminds me of Hockey... and the French National anthem because of that scene in 'Casablanca'. But, I don't expect very one to agree with me about it... that's what America (the principle, as opposed to the country) means to me. People find more meaning in a National Anthem and either love it or hate it for whatever reasons... that's their gig, not mine. I will still feel the same about it... personally, I prefer 'America, The Beautiful'. i know the God reference in it... but, Christianity isn't the only religion who believes in God. And even hellbound guys like me believe there is something greater than ourselves out there... just not that petty, narcissistic Guy portrayed in the Bible. The song just sounds nicer to me and point woards things like purple mountains and shining seas... and brotherhood... things that are supposed to make us American.
Finally, I don't think we are any better or worse than any other country. To point at our wealth or military as reasons... well, i would see that as a reflection of me... and I don't think money and destructions are what I'm all about. I believe other countries are different... I say, live and let live. i don't expect them to be like me, just as I will probably not want to be like them.
Nationalism isn't such a bad thing, unless it is taken to extreme. And anything taken to extreme is bad... in my book.
Even extreme surfing?
I got a tear in the eye about the Cdn anthem and hockey.
Personally... I don't see anything wrong with National Pride. I love my country, America. I love the principles she was founded upon.
Do I believe she is perfect? No. Do I support everything she does and has done in the past? No. I know we have faults and i am the first to admit to and own them. In doing so, i hope that we learn from and do not repeat them... but... we do.
I love the National anthem... mostly because it reminds me of baseball. I also love the Canadian National anthem because it reminds me of Hockey... and the French National anthem because of that scene in 'Casablanca'. But, I don't expect very one to agree with me about it... that's what America (the principle, as opposed to the country) means to me. People find more meaning in a National Anthem and either love it or hate it for whatever reasons... that's their gig, not mine. I will still feel the same about it... personally, I prefer 'America, The Beautiful'. i know the God reference in it... but, Christianity isn't the only religion who believes in God. And even hellbound guys like me believe there is something greater than ourselves out there... just not that petty, narcissistic Guy portrayed in the Bible. The song just sounds nicer to me and point woards things like purple mountains and shining seas... and brotherhood... things that are supposed to make us American.
Finally, I don't think we are any better or worse than any other country. To point at our wealth or military as reasons... well, i would see that as a reflection of me... and I don't think money and destructions are what I'm all about. I believe other countries are different... I say, live and let live. i don't expect them to be like me, just as I will probably not want to be like them.
Nationalism isn't such a bad thing, unless it is taken to extreme. And anything taken to extreme is bad... in my book.
Great post.
There's another good point exemplified by this - that everyone has a different sense of what nationalism is. Therefore, when Zinn paints with these very broad strokes he's really inaccurately stereotyping a great bunch of people.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I got a tear in the eye about the Cdn anthem and hockey.
...
Yeah... extreme surfing is bad... for me. There are a few that can handle it. Very few.
...
As for 'O! Canada!'... I LOVE singing that when the Canadian teams come to town... especially that, 'Nah-na la-la la-la-la la-la The True North strong and Free..' part. i miss Hockey.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
is the US the only nation that has a national anthem? the "Star Spangled Banner" is our NATIONAL anthem, not an international anthem is it not? is Mr Zinn too stupid to realize that? I don't wish any ill will to other countries, but we don't owe them any props in our NATIONAL anthem any more than they should make mention of us in theirs. the anthem doesn't say "God bless America and fuck Canada" or anything of the sort. it is meant to bring pride to the hearts of Americans just like other nation's anthems are meant to do the same thing. rather than writing a long eloquent but pointless essay, it would be better for Mr Zinn to shove a dildo up his ass and whistle dixie.
is the US the only nation that has a national anthem? the "Star Spangled Banner" is our NATIONAL anthem, not an international anthem is it not? is Mr Zinn too stupid to realize that? I don't wish any ill will to other countries, but we don't owe them any props in our NATIONAL anthem any more than they should make mention of us in theirs. the anthem doesn't say "God bless America and fuck Canada" or anything of the sort. it is meant to bring pride to the hearts of Americans just like other nation's anthems are meant to do the same thing. rather than writing a long eloquent but pointless essay, it would be better for Mr Zinn to shove a dildo up his ass and whistle dixie.
No, but his point is that National Anthems are bad. He doesn't like nationalism. Not any.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
No, but his point is that National Anthems are bad. He doesn't like nationalism. Not any.
I don't understand how I can agree with Zinn that nationalism is bad, yet disagree with him on most of the reasons why. The national anthem isn't even a blip on the radar of why it's bad.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I don't understand how I can agree with Zinn that nationalism is bad, yet disagree with him on most of the reasons why. The national anthem isn't even a blip on the radar of why it's bad.
I agree. My problems with nationalism don't seem to be exactly the same as his. But at least he's consistent.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
No, but his point is that National Anthems are bad. He doesn't like nationalism. Not any.
that's his problem. nationalism doesn't cause war and mass murder, corrupt egomaniacal governments do. you think Bush started this war because he gives 2 shits about what the American people think or how the country is perceived? no, he did it because he wanted to kill Saddam and make his big business buddies richer.
that's his problem. nationalism doesn't cause war and mass murder, corrupt egomaniacal governments do. you think Bush started this war because he gives 2 shits about what the American people think or how the country is perceived? no, he did it because he wanted to kill Saddam and make his big business buddies richer.
True, but those governments often use Nationalism as a vehicle to gain popular support. And that is bad.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
True, but those governments often use Nationalism as a vehicle to gain popular support. And that is bad.
that is true. the forefathers of this country intended that the citizens should overthrow the government if/when it became to powerful or too corrupt. unfortunately, through the decades, we have allowed the government to do exactly that and now they are far to powerful to be overthrown by us. I still am very proud to be an American, I just hate our government. too often though, "America" and "American government" are used as interchangeable terms, and they shouldn't be.
Wouldn't everyone be just as proud of their country no matter where they were born? That seems to be the case most of the time. So actually, nationalism is just about being proud that you were born here. It's really not so much about how great you view some place but that it's your home. So that makes all places just as deserving of this pride and it makes it seem kinda silly.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Saddam killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civillians and the U.S. has killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civillians. Hard to see us as being any moral than him. Besides, your argument is shit because you're comparing us with a couple of the worst. How many peaceful nations are out there that are insanely more moral then the U.S.? Plenty to make it reasonable that the U.S. gets grouped with countries like Iraq and Afghanistan.
Anyone who believes this country is morally superior than the rest of the world is flat out ignorant and doesn't know history.
Edit: Note to self - Morally has two Ls and only one R.
Are you serious... you think it is hard to find the United States as being any more moral than Saddam? You've bumped your damn head son...
And I love how you state that the United States has killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's and then talk about people not knowing their history. Please find me a credible source that states that the US has killed that many Iraqi's.
Comments
So kids in England when they sing God Save the Queen think all other monarchs in the world should die a grisly death?
Or when Canadians sing O Canada they think God should only keep Canada glorious and free?
- 8/28/98
- 9/2/00
- 4/28/03, 5/3/03, 7/3/03, 7/5/03, 7/6/03, 7/9/03, 7/11/03, 7/12/03, 7/14/03
- 9/28/04, 9/29/04, 10/1/04, 10/2/04
- 9/11/05, 9/12/05, 9/13/05, 9/30/05, 10/1/05, 10/3/05
- 5/12/06, 5/13/06, 5/27/06, 5/28/06, 5/30/06, 6/1/06, 6/3/06, 6/23/06, 7/22/06, 7/23/06, 12/2/06, 12/9/06
- 8/2/07, 8/5/07
- 6/19/08, 6/20/08, 6/22/08, 6/24/08, 6/25/08, 6/27/08, 6/28/08, 6/30/08, 7/1/08
- 8/23/09, 8/24/09, 9/21/09, 9/22/09, 10/27/09, 10/28/09, 10/30/09, 10/31/09
- 5/15/10, 5/17/10, 5/18/10, 5/20/10, 5/21/10, 10/23/10, 10/24/10
- 9/11/11, 9/12/11
- 10/18/13, 10/21/13, 10/22/13, 11/30/13, 12/4/13
Are you advocating instilling a sense of moral insecurity in children and students. I could imagine the class "Now kids, today we are going to learn how dumb we are as people and Americans. We will learn why the world would be better off without us."
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
You were taught that America is "morally superior" to other countries?
As I've said, I've really never heard anyone espouse that America deserved God's blessings anymore than anyone else....nevermind the majority saying that. I know I certainly do not believe that Americans are more deserving.
As I said in the beginning, count me in the camp that thinks nationalism is wrong. That may be the most outrageous conclusion I have on this subject.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Yes! And it is even more poignant with the way our neighbour to the south is.
Well, I didn't go to public school, so I don't know, but I certainly was not taught this.
Well, I'm not sure that I was taught that America is morally superior. At least not explicitly.
The real point is that I believe people can actually rise above what they are taught as children and can choose to form their own, personal conclusions.
You don't still believe in Santa Claus do you?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
The pledge isn't said by too many people over the age of 12.
The National Anthem doesn't say anything about God.....WHICH is what we were talking about.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
It does sound like the idea of moral superiority needed to be toned down, and that the importance of other countries should have been expressed more. However, keep in mind that it is grade school, and that it might be hard to express to such young kids about all the problems with this country.
Granted, no one should be taught that the country is perfect, far from it. But its also not good to teach children that this country is terrible.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
No - I'm asking the right person. You're the one claiming that part of the reason Americans believe they are morally superior is that they were taught that as children. If you do not believe in Santa Claus, then you're living proof of my point - that we do not have to believe all that we did or were taught as children.
(and everyone has morals)
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Do I believe she is perfect? No. Do I support everything she does and has done in the past? No. I know we have faults and i am the first to admit to and own them. In doing so, i hope that we learn from and do not repeat them... but... we do.
I love the National anthem... mostly because it reminds me of baseball. I also love the Canadian National anthem because it reminds me of Hockey... and the French National anthem because of that scene in 'Casablanca'. But, I don't expect very one to agree with me about it... that's what America (the principle, as opposed to the country) means to me. People find more meaning in a National Anthem and either love it or hate it for whatever reasons... that's their gig, not mine. I will still feel the same about it... personally, I prefer 'America, The Beautiful'. i know the God reference in it... but, Christianity isn't the only religion who believes in God. And even hellbound guys like me believe there is something greater than ourselves out there... just not that petty, narcissistic Guy portrayed in the Bible. The song just sounds nicer to me and point towards things like purple mountains and shining seas... and brotherhood... things that are supposed to make us American.
Finally, I don't think we are any better or worse than any other country. To point at our wealth or military as reasons... well, i would see that as a reflection of me... and I don't think money and destructions are what I'm all about. I believe other countries are different... I say, live and let live. i don't expect them to be like me, just as I will probably not want to be like them.
Nationalism isn't such a bad thing, unless it is taken to extreme. And anything taken to extreme is bad... in my book.
Hail, Hail!!!
Even extreme surfing?
I got a tear in the eye about the Cdn anthem and hockey.
Great post.
There's another good point exemplified by this - that everyone has a different sense of what nationalism is. Therefore, when Zinn paints with these very broad strokes he's really inaccurately stereotyping a great bunch of people.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Yeah... extreme surfing is bad... for me. There are a few that can handle it. Very few.
...
As for 'O! Canada!'... I LOVE singing that when the Canadian teams come to town... especially that, 'Nah-na la-la la-la-la la-la The True North strong and Free..' part. i miss Hockey.
Hail, Hail!!!
No, but his point is that National Anthems are bad. He doesn't like nationalism. Not any.
I don't understand how I can agree with Zinn that nationalism is bad, yet disagree with him on most of the reasons why. The national anthem isn't even a blip on the radar of why it's bad.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I agree. My problems with nationalism don't seem to be exactly the same as his. But at least he's consistent.
that's his problem. nationalism doesn't cause war and mass murder, corrupt egomaniacal governments do. you think Bush started this war because he gives 2 shits about what the American people think or how the country is perceived? no, he did it because he wanted to kill Saddam and make his big business buddies richer.
True, but those governments often use Nationalism as a vehicle to gain popular support. And that is bad.
that is true. the forefathers of this country intended that the citizens should overthrow the government if/when it became to powerful or too corrupt. unfortunately, through the decades, we have allowed the government to do exactly that and now they are far to powerful to be overthrown by us. I still am very proud to be an American, I just hate our government. too often though, "America" and "American government" are used as interchangeable terms, and they shouldn't be.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Are you serious... you think it is hard to find the United States as being any more moral than Saddam? You've bumped your damn head son...
And I love how you state that the United States has killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's and then talk about people not knowing their history. Please find me a credible source that states that the US has killed that many Iraqi's.