On July 4, Put Away Your Flags

Eliot RosewaterEliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
edited July 2007 in A Moving Train
Here's a great article from a true patriot, one who inspired the name of this very forum.


http://alternet.org/story/55822/


On July 4, Put Away the Flags
By Howard Zinn, Progressive Media Project. Posted July 4, 2007.


On this July 4, we would do well to renounce nationalism and all its symbols: its flags, its pledges of allegiance, its anthems, its insistence in song that God must single out America to be blessed.

Is not nationalism -- that devotion to a flag, an anthem, a boundary so fierce it engenders mass murder -- one of the great evils of our time, along with racism, along with religious hatred?

These ways of thinking -- cultivated, nurtured, indoctrinated from childhood on -- have been useful to those in power, and deadly for those out of power.

National spirit can be benign in a country that is small and lacking both in military power and a hunger for expansion (Switzerland, Norway, Costa Rica and many more). But in a nation like ours -- huge, possessing thousands of weapons of mass destruction -- what might have been harmless pride becomes an arrogant nationalism dangerous to others and to ourselves.

Our citizenry has been brought up to see our nation as different from others, an exception in the world, uniquely moral, expanding into other lands in order to bring civilization, liberty, democracy.

That self-deception started early.

When the first English settlers moved into Indian land in Massachusetts Bay and were resisted, the violence escalated into war with the Pequot Indians. The killing of Indians was seen as approved by God, the taking of land as commanded by the Bible. The Puritans cited one of the Psalms, which says: "Ask of me, and I shall give thee, the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the Earth for thy possession."

When the English set fire to a Pequot village and massacred men, women and children, the Puritan theologian Cotton Mather said: "It was supposed that no less than 600 Pequot souls were brought down to hell that day."


On the eve of the Mexican War, an American journalist declared it our "Manifest Destiny to overspread the continent allotted by Providence." After the invasion of Mexico began, The New York Herald announced: "We believe it is a part of our destiny to civilize that beautiful country."

It was always supposedly for benign purposes that our country went to war.

We invaded Cuba in 1898 to liberate the Cubans, and went to war in the Philippines shortly after, as President McKinley put it, "to civilize and Christianize" the Filipino people.

As our armies were committing massacres in the Philippines (at least 600,000 Filipinos died in a few years of conflict), Elihu Root, our secretary of war, was saying: "The American soldier is different from all other soldiers of all other countries since the war began. He is the advance guard of liberty and justice, of law and order, and of peace and happiness."

We see in Iraq that our soldiers are not different. They have, perhaps against their better nature, killed thousands of Iraq civilians. And some soldiers have shown themselves capable of brutality, of torture.

Yet they are victims, too, of our government's lies.

How many times have we heard President Bush tell the troops that if they die, if they return without arms or legs, or blinded, it is for "liberty," for "democracy"?

One of the effects of nationalist thinking is a loss of a sense of proportion. The killing of 2,300 people at Pearl Harbor becomes the justification for killing 240,000 in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The killing of 3,000 people on Sept. 11 becomes the justification for killing tens of thousands of people in Afghanistan and Iraq.

And nationalism is given a special virulence when it is said to be blessed by Providence. Today we have a president, invading two countries in four years, who announced on the campaign trail in 2004 that God speaks through him.

We need to refute the idea that our nation is different from, morally superior to, the other imperial powers of world history.

We need to assert our allegiance to the human race, and not to any one nation.


Howard Zinn, a World War II bombardier, is the author of the best- selling "A People's History of the United States" (Perennial Classics, 2003, latest edition). This piece was distributed by the Progressive Media Project
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Comments

  • NCfanNCfan Posts: 945
    Here's a great article from a true patriot, one who inspired the name of this very forum.


    http://alternet.org/story/55822/


    On July 4, Put Away the Flags
    By Howard Zinn, Progressive Media Project. Posted July 4, 2007.


    On this July 4, we would do well to renounce nationalism and all its symbols: its flags, its pledges of allegiance, its anthems, its insistence in song that God must single out America to be blessed.

    Is not nationalism -- that devotion to a flag, an anthem, a boundary so fierce it engenders mass murder -- one of the great evils of our time, along with racism, along with religious hatred?

    These ways of thinking -- cultivated, nurtured, indoctrinated from childhood on -- have been useful to those in power, and deadly for those out of power.

    National spirit can be benign in a country that is small and lacking both in military power and a hunger for expansion (Switzerland, Norway, Costa Rica and many more). But in a nation like ours -- huge, possessing thousands of weapons of mass destruction -- what might have been harmless pride becomes an arrogant nationalism dangerous to others and to ourselves.

    Our citizenry has been brought up to see our nation as different from others, an exception in the world, uniquely moral, expanding into other lands in order to bring civilization, liberty, democracy.

    That self-deception started early.

    When the first English settlers moved into Indian land in Massachusetts Bay and were resisted, the violence escalated into war with the Pequot Indians. The killing of Indians was seen as approved by God, the taking of land as commanded by the Bible. The Puritans cited one of the Psalms, which says: "Ask of me, and I shall give thee, the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the Earth for thy possession."

    When the English set fire to a Pequot village and massacred men, women and children, the Puritan theologian Cotton Mather said: "It was supposed that no less than 600 Pequot souls were brought down to hell that day."


    On the eve of the Mexican War, an American journalist declared it our "Manifest Destiny to overspread the continent allotted by Providence." After the invasion of Mexico began, The New York Herald announced: "We believe it is a part of our destiny to civilize that beautiful country."

    It was always supposedly for benign purposes that our country went to war.

    We invaded Cuba in 1898 to liberate the Cubans, and went to war in the Philippines shortly after, as President McKinley put it, "to civilize and Christianize" the Filipino people.

    As our armies were committing massacres in the Philippines (at least 600,000 Filipinos died in a few years of conflict), Elihu Root, our secretary of war, was saying: "The American soldier is different from all other soldiers of all other countries since the war began. He is the advance guard of liberty and justice, of law and order, and of peace and happiness."

    We see in Iraq that our soldiers are not different. They have, perhaps against their better nature, killed thousands of Iraq civilians. And some soldiers have shown themselves capable of brutality, of torture.

    Yet they are victims, too, of our government's lies.

    How many times have we heard President Bush tell the troops that if they die, if they return without arms or legs, or blinded, it is for "liberty," for "democracy"?

    One of the effects of nationalist thinking is a loss of a sense of proportion. The killing of 2,300 people at Pearl Harbor becomes the justification for killing 240,000 in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The killing of 3,000 people on Sept. 11 becomes the justification for killing tens of thousands of people in Afghanistan and Iraq.

    And nationalism is given a special virulence when it is said to be blessed by Providence. Today we have a president, invading two countries in four years, who announced on the campaign trail in 2004 that God speaks through him.

    We need to refute the idea that our nation is different from, morally superior to, the other imperial powers of world history.

    We need to assert our allegiance to the human race, and not to any one nation.


    Howard Zinn, a World War II bombardier, is the author of the best- selling "A People's History of the United States" (Perennial Classics, 2003, latest edition). This piece was distributed by the Progressive Media Project

    There are many truths here, but they have been distorted for Howard's agenda. But the biggest, most glaring problem is his central thesis that America is not morally superior or different from other nations.

    I'll just throw out two specifics he metions. The wars against the Taliban in Afghanistan and Saddam's Bathist dictatorship in Iraq. How is it that our governments are not morrally superior or at least "different" than these? Sure, in practice the American government has done much wrong, but the very essence of how our republic was created and set up is 180 degrees from that of the Taliban or the Bathist dictatorship. Who can argue against that, really?

    We are very, very different and that is what we celebrate on July 4th, and that is why we fly our flags.
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    I tend to agree with Zinn that nationalism is essentially a bad thing.

    I just disagree with a lot of the arguments or statements that he makes to support that position.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • Eliot RosewaterEliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    NCfan wrote:
    There are many truths here, but they have been distorted for Howard's agenda. But the biggest, most glaring problem is his central thesis that America is not morally superior or different from other nations.

    I'll just throw out two specifics he metions. The wars against the Taliban in Afghanistan and Saddam's Bathist dictatorship in Iraq. How is it that our governments are not morrally superior or at least "different" than these? Sure, in practice the American government has done much wrong, but the very essence of how our republic was created and set up is 180 degrees from that of the Taliban or the Bathist dictatorship. Who can argue against that, really?

    We are very, very different and that is what we celebrate on July 4th, and that is why we fly our flags.
    Saddam killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civillians and the U.S. has killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civillians. Hard to see us as being any moral than him. Besides, your argument is shit because you're comparing us with a couple of the worst. How many peaceful nations are out there that are insanely more moral then the U.S.? Plenty to make it reasonable that the U.S. gets grouped with countries like Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Anyone who believes this country is morally superior than the rest of the world is flat out ignorant and doesn't know history.

    Edit: Note to self - Morally has two Ls and only one R.
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    know1 wrote:
    I tend to agree with Zinn that nationalism is essentially a bad thing.

    I just disagree with a lot of the arguments or statements that he makes to support that position.
    I tend to agree with you. Tha value of all people is the same. That's why I'm fine with outsourcing. A person working is a good thing, it doesn't matter to me where that person is.

    Some of Zinn's biases are bothersome, "Is not nationalism -- that devotion to a flag, an anthem, a boundary so fierce it engenders mass murder -- one of the great evils of our time, along with racism, along with religious hatred?". How is religious hatred any worse than any other type of hatred? Hatred is hatred, the outcome is the same.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • Eliot RosewaterEliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    surferdude wrote:
    I tend to agree with you. Tha value of all people is the same. That's why I'm fine with outsourcing. A person working is a good thing, it doesn't matter to me where that person is.

    Some of Zinn's biases are bothersome, "Is not nationalism -- that devotion to a flag, an anthem, a boundary so fierce it engenders mass murder -- one of the great evils of our time, along with racism, along with religious hatred?". How is religious hatred any worse than any other type of hatred? Hatred is hatred, the outcome is the same.
    Well, religious hatred has been acceptable at times because fuck, when god tells you to invade iraq then goddamnit you've got to invade iraq.
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    surferdude wrote:
    I tend to agree with you. Tha value of all people is the same. That's why I'm fine with outsourcing. A person working is a good thing, it doesn't matter to me where that person is.

    Some of Zinn's biases are bothersome, "Is not nationalism -- that devotion to a flag, an anthem, a boundary so fierce it engenders mass murder -- one of the great evils of our time, along with racism, along with religious hatred?". How is religious hatred any worse than any other type of hatred? Hatred is hatred, the outcome is the same.

    Exactly. Even at the very start of the article, he has to get in an underhanded shot saying that "its insistence in song that God must single out America to be blessed".

    In addition, anytime anyone starts blathering on about how all humans (except the enlightened one making the claim) have been trained, brainwashed, etc., by the system, I tune out.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    Well, religious hatred has been acceptable at times because fuck, when god tells you to invade iraq then goddamnit you've got to invade iraq.

    It's never been universally acceptable.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • Eliot RosewaterEliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    know1 wrote:
    Exactly. Even at the very start of the article, he has to get in an underhanded shot saying that "its insistence in song that God must single out America to be blessed".
    What's wrong with being critical of that? Is it not a flaw to assume that God should only bless America? Or at least to sing that he only bless America?
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    Well, religious hatred has been acceptable at times because fuck, when god tells you to invade iraq then goddamnit you've got to invade iraq.
    I thought the Iraq invasion was about oil. Now it's about religion. Please make up your mind about what it's about. All I know is that some people seem to think Saddam was the best alternative available.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    What's wrong with being critical of that? Is it not a flaw to assume that God should only bless America? Or at least to sing that he only bless America?

    It's wrong on a lot of levels, but primarily it's innacurate from the sense that I've never heard anyone say that God should bless ONLY America.

    Who can he point to that is insisting that? Or should we just accept it as truth because he says it?
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    What's wrong with being critical of that? Is it not a flaw to assume that God should only bless America? Or at least to sing that he only bless America?
    Forgive me if I'm wrong but nowhere does it say "that God should only bless America".
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    know1 wrote:
    Exactly. Even at the very start of the article, he has to get in an underhanded shot saying that "its insistence in song that God must single out America to be blessed".

    In addition, anytime anyone starts blathering on about how all humans (except the enlightened one making the claim) have been trained, brainwashed, etc., by the system, I tune out.
    The only reason I can see for Zinn singling out some sorts of hatred rather than all hatred is that he uses it to justify his forms of hatred.

    That hate is bad, mine are acceptable and understandable. You'd hate too given these same cirumstances. It's such a powerless proposition. I guess I just believe in people more than Zinn.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    "America is morally superior" LMFAO!
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Eliot RosewaterEliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    know1 wrote:
    It's wrong on a lot of levels, but primarily it's innacurate from the sense that I've never heard anyone say that God should bless ONLY America.

    Who can he point to that is insisting that? Or should we just accept it as truth because he says it?
    He referenced singing it. http://www.scoutsongs.com/lyrics/godblessamerica.html
  • yosi1yosi1 Posts: 3,272

    It never says ONLY America, which I believe is Surferdude's point.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794

    And?

    Does that song say anywhere that God should bless ONLY America?
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • Eliot RosewaterEliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    know1 wrote:
    And?

    Does that song say anywhere that God should bless ONLY America?
    Okay, let's be specific then. How about we start by reading the article because I may have not used the best words in my posts.

    "On this July 4, we would do well to renounce nationalism and all its symbols: its flags, its pledges of allegiance, its anthems, its insistence in song that God must single out America to be blessed."

    So how is he wrong again? Do we not insist in song that God must single out America to be blessed? I'll admit that my admiration for Zinn is to the point where I feel like I don't have to even question him often. But I really can't see an argument against this statement. At least not one that's rational.
  • Eliot RosewaterEliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    yosi wrote:
    It never says ONLY America, which I believe is Surferdude's point.
    Well, I think that's assumed. Assuming there's a god, we must also assume he's not stupid.
  • Do we not insist in song that God must single out America to be blessed?


    No, we do not.
  • yosi1yosi1 Posts: 3,272
    Okay, let's be specific then. How about we start by reading the article because I may have not used the best words in my posts.

    "On this July 4, we would do well to renounce nationalism and all its symbols: its flags, its pledges of allegiance, its anthems, its insistence in song that God must single out America to be blessed."

    So how is he wrong again? Do we not insist in song that God must single out America to be blessed? I'll admit that my admiration for Zinn is to the point where I feel like I don't have to even question him often. But I really can't see an argument against this statement. At least not one that's rational.

    Because saying that God should single out America to be blessed is saying that God should only bless America (or be included in whatever few things ought to be blessed).

    Which is different than just saying that God should bless America, which says nothing about what else God should bless.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
  • yosi1yosi1 Posts: 3,272
    Well, I think that's assumed. Assuming there's a god, we must also assume he's not stupid.

    I don't. I think its just saying that God should bless America. Like when someone says "God bless you" to someone who sneezes, they're not saying, God ONLY bless you.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
  • Eliot RosewaterEliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    yosi wrote:
    Because saying that God should single out America to be blessed is saying that God should only bless America (or be included in whatever few things ought to be blessed).

    Which is different than just saying that God should bless America, which says nothing about what else God should bless.
    I disagree. I'm not even sure what to say. The feeling of superiority is something that is absolutely instilled in our brains as children. It's pure arrogance. To conclude that we're asking for God to ONLY bless us isn't an outrageous conclusion.
  • yosi1yosi1 Posts: 3,272
    To conclude that we're asking for God to ONLY bless us isn't an outrageous conclusion.

    I think if you just look at the words in that song, and you think that it is saying to only bless America, than you are making a pretty big leap.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
  • yosi wrote:
    I think if you just look at the words in that song, and you think that it is saying to only bless America, than you are making a pretty big leap.

    I would say it's an "outrageous conclusion."
  • Eliot RosewaterEliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    yosi wrote:
    I don't. I think its just saying that God should bless America. Like when someone says "God bless you" to someone who sneezes, they're not saying, God ONLY bless you.
    My point is that if there's a god then he/she certainly knows our intentions. IMO the intent of that song is to further indocterinate the false idea that America is a morally superior nation. That's why it's sung in grade school. The same grade schools that glorify Columbus etc. False history is taught, arrogant songs are sung and mindless allegiances are pledged. All of this is done so when innocent lives are lost by illegal wars that are waged, we can still take pride in our great nation.
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    I disagree. I'm not even sure what to say. The feeling of superiority is something that is absolutely instilled in our brains as children. It's pure arrogance.

    Ahh....there it is. Those are exactly the types of statements that I was referring to earlier that makes me tune out - i.e. "absolutely instilled in our brains as children".
    To conclude that we're asking for God to ONLY bless us isn't an outrageous conclusion.

    I believe it is an outrageous conclusion considering the song does not specifically say that.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • Eliot RosewaterEliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    know1 wrote:
    Ahh....there it is. Those are exactly the types of statements that I was referring to earlier that makes me tune out - i.e. "absolutely instilled in our brains as children".



    I believe it is an outrageous conclusion considering the song does not specifically say that.
    well, if you think americans don't think they deserve god's blessings more than any other nation than you've come to an outrageous conclusion of your own.

    So maybe it's not God Bless ONLY America. But certainly they're asking for more blessings for america than say, Iraq....
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    My point is that if there's a god then he/she certainly knows our intentions. IMO the intent of that song is to further indocterinate the false idea that America is a morally superior nation. That's why it's sung in grade school. The same grade schools that glorify Columbus etc. False history is taught, arrogant songs are sung and mindless allegiances are pledged. All of this is done so when innocent lives are lost by illegal wars that are waged, we can take pride in our great nation.

    Even if I grant you the point that the song gives us a false idea that America is a morally superior nation (which is far different from saying that God would single it out for blessing, but whatever....), it still doesn't mean that every single American is going around humming that 24/7 or repeating it as a mantra. In other words, it's giving the song a lot more credibility than it deserves.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • yosi1yosi1 Posts: 3,272
    My point is that if there's a god then he/she certainly knows our intentions. IMO the intent of that song is to further indocterinate the false idea that America is a morally superior nation. That's why it's sung in grade school. The same grade schools that glorify Columbus etc. False history is taught, arrogant songs are sung and mindless allegiances are pledged. All of this is done so when innocent lives are lost by illegal wars that are waged, we can still take pride in our great nation.

    I don't think you're reading the song correctly at all. Its saying that we should be thankful to live in America because it is a great country. Fine. But I don't think that's necessarily a put down on other countries.

    But even more, the song is asking God to guide America, because the people leading the country need guidance, and need to be blessed because they aren't perfect. They need help to keep the country good.

    At least that's how I read it. It doesn't say anything, anywhere about moral superiority, nor does it imply it.

    Its like asking God to protect your family because you love them, not because you think they are better.

    I just don't agree with your understanding of the song at all.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
  • Eliot RosewaterEliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    know1 wrote:
    Ahh....there it is. Those are exactly the types of statements that I was referring to earlier that makes me tune out - i.e. "absolutely instilled in our brains as children".
    Am I wrong? I was forced to pledge allegiance as a child. I was forced to sing "patriotic" songs as a child, many of which state america is better than other nations. I was taught in public schools that America is morally superior. I believe most were. Are you disagreeing with that?
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