that is true. the forefathers of this country intended that the citizens should overthrow the government if/when it became to powerful or too corrupt. unfortunately, through the decades, we have allowed the government to do exactly that and now they are far to powerful to be overthrown by us. I still am very proud to be an American, I just hate our government. too often though, "America" and "American government" are used as interchangeable terms, and they shouldn't be.
I think I pretty much agree. People often assume that saying one is proud to be an American, means that we condone everything our country/government has done, and are proud of everything that our country/government does. Which in my opinion is not the case.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
While that is horrible, its not the same as saying the US killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. I'm not saying that to make the death's any less significant. Because either way its horrible, but I wouldn't entirely blame the US for that.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
nationalism doesn't cause war and mass murder, corrupt egomaniacal governments do.
...
I think the German Jews of 1936 would take issue with this.
National Pride and the belief that they would become a Superior Race to lead Europe and the world for a thousand years lead them to exterminate Jews, Slavs and Gypsies. It was the German people that turned in Jews, loaded them into box cars and into gas chambers. Hitler didn't do all of this by himself.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
I think the German Jews of 1936 would take issue with this.
National Pride and the belief that they would become a Superior Race to lead Europe and the world for a thousand years lead them to exterminate Jews, Slavs and Gypsies. It was the German people that turned in Jews, loaded them into box cars and into gas chambers. Hitler didn't do all of this by himself.
Thats what I was alluding to a couple of posts back.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
...
I think the German Jews of 1936 would take issue with this.
National Pride and the belief that they would become a Superior Race to lead Europe and the world for a thousand years lead them to exterminate Jews, Slavs and Gypsies. It was the German people that turned in Jews, loaded them into box cars and into gas chambers. Hitler didn't do all of this by himself.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Granted, no one should be taught that the country is perfect, far from it. But its also not good to teach children that this country is terrible.
What about teaching kids the truth? The good with the bad? That's one of my biggest problems - The truth is often hidden and the truth is sometimes terrible. Does doing terrible things make this a terrible country?
What about teaching kids the truth? The good with the bad? That's one of my biggest problems - The truth is often hidden and the truth is sometimes terrible. Does doing terrible things make this a terrible country?
I agree. Kids need to be taught the truth, but not everything needs to be taught in grade school. Leave some of the uglier stuff for highschool.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
No - I'm asking the right person. You're the one claiming that part of the reason Americans believe they are morally superior is that they were taught that as children. If you do not believe in Santa Claus, then you're living proof of my point - that we do not have to believe all that we did or were taught as children.
(and everyone has morals)
But the secret of santa clause is enveiled. No one ever comes out and teaches our children that this country has done some absolutely horrific things and shouldn't be considered morally superior.
But the secret of santa clause is enveiled. No one ever comes out and teaches our children that this country has done some absolutely horrific things and shouldn't be considered morally superior.
Zinn does.
You need to get over thinking that everyone needs to be taught. People form opinions for a variety of reasons and a multitude of very diverse experiences and knowledge.
You don't believe everything you hear or read do you? (and I know that you don't from your other replies, so that just strengthens my point)
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
But the secret of santa clause is enveiled. No one ever comes out and teaches our children that this country has done some absolutely horrific things and shouldn't be considered morally superior.
No one, or in your experience?
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
I hope you voiced your displeasure at the time. Stood up and told people that Americans shouldn't feel good about themselves. Denounce the false history they've all been taught. To recognize your words of wisdom as they are coming from a morally superior person.
I absolutely voiced my displeasure. It wouldn't have been appropriate at the time. But I wrote a letter to the editor of the local paper. Never got published and never got a response, but I still voiced my opinion.
btw, I've never claimed to be morally superior. But thanks for taking a shot at me.
While that is horrible, its not the same as saying the US killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. I'm not saying that to make the death's any less significant. Because either way its horrible, but I wouldn't entirely blame the US for that.
You wouldn't blame the U.S. entirely for that but how about even 1/2 the blame? Or even 1/3? Because that's all the blame I need to make my above post accurate.
You need to get over thinking that everyone needs to be taught. People form opinions for a variety of reasons and a multitude of very diverse experiences and knowledge.
You don't believe everything you hear or read do you? (and I know that you don't from your other replies, so that just strengthens my point)
You're right. One problem is we're a lazy bunch. People would rather turn on fox news than spend a minute to find some truth.
You wouldn't blame the U.S. entirely for that but how about even 1/2 the blame? Or even 1/3? Because that's all the blame I need to make my above post accurate.
I don't agree. Even if the US is partly to blame for some of the deaths, it still does not make them as immoral as Saddam's government. Nor does it necessarily make them more immoral than others.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
I don't agree. Even if the US is partly to blame for some of the deaths, it still does not make them as immoral as Saddam's government. Nor does it necessarily make them more immoral than others.
Okay, speaking by the numbers...sorry, that's what I meant. I was saying that even if U.S. and A. was 1/3 to blame for the death of 650,000 iraqi civilians then I was accurate in saying they've killed "hundreds of thousands."
Ok, how many public schools and teachers and classes have you actually gone into and found out exactly what they were teaching?
Honestly? I have many friends and family members in education. My brother is an experienced elementary school principal. I've had many talks with thim about this. Obviously that doesn't mean a whole lot as there are thousands and thousands of public schools in America, but at least around here, it's pretty clear about promoting America as moral leaders and superiors.
Honestly? I have many friends and family members in education. My brother is an experienced elementary school principal. I've had many talks with thim about this. Obviously that doesn't mean a whole lot as there are thousands and thousands of public schools in America, but at least around here, it's pretty clear about promoting America as moral leaders and superiors.
Ok. I was just trying to point out that you were making a pretty large generalization.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
Okay, speaking by the numbers...sorry, that's what I meant. I was saying that even if U.S. and A. was 1/3 to blame for the death of 650,000 iraqi civilians then I was accurate in saying they've killed "hundreds of thousands."
Got it. Ok, but I'm still not sure I'd say the US is to blame even that much. I don't know. But I won't argue with the math that 1/4 of 650,000 is still at least 100,000
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Ok. I was just trying to point out that you were making a pretty large generalization.
Yeah, I realize that too. I'm speaking solely from my experience, which may or may not fairly represent the general population. I shouldn't just assume that it does.
I'm compelled to defend my deceased grandmother. I am a first generation American, the daughter of immigrants, Germans on my mother's side.
My grandmother despised Hitler. She never believed she was superior to any other race.
And if that wasn't bad enough, half my other relatives are Iranian ! Shit !! Do they think the holocaust never occured ? Good grief.
...
Somebody turned in those Jews... somebody worked the rails... somebody turned on the gas. Hitler didn't kill 6 million Jews himself.
Krystal Nicht was done by everyday Germans... not Hitler and his Brown Shirts alone. Everyday Germans painted 'JUDEN' on shoppes owned by Jews. It was Nationalism... National PRIDE that drove them. Germany was supposed to become a model of what Europe could be once the 'Jewish scourge' had been 'taken care of'.
History, like the truth, is never always pretty or nice.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Howard Zinn doesn't believe in nationalism because he hates what this country stands for. He hates capitalism and individual liberty; therefore, he couldn't possibly be nationalistic for this capitalist and free nation. Give him a socialist totalitarian regime and he would be waving the Red Flag in all its glory!!
I'd rather be dead than red.
All you've gotta do is see the innocent patriotism present in Joey Chestnut's hot dog victory over Kobayashi and then you can come to understand the virtuous and simple beauty of American nationalism.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
Howard Zinn doesn't believe in nationalism because he hates what this country stands for. He hates capitalism and individual liberty; therefore, he couldn't possibly be nationalistic for this capitalist and free nation. Give him a socialist totalitarian regime and he would be waving the Red Flag in all its glory!!
I'd rather be dead than red.
All you've gotta do is see the innocent patriotism present in Joey Chestnut's hot dog victory over Kobayashi and then you can come to understand the virtuous and simple beauty of American nationalism.
Howard Zinn loves you CorporateWhore.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
i will keep raising my flag and respecting the blood that was poured to give us in America the right to say and do the things we can on a daily basis...my family served and was honorable as members of the military and ill be damned if i will ever put down my flag of my country
we are not perfect and have made mistakes but that flag means more than some god hating, american hating propaganda
Comments
I think I pretty much agree. People often assume that saying one is proud to be an American, means that we condone everything our country/government has done, and are proud of everything that our country/government does. Which in my opinion is not the case.
While that is horrible, its not the same as saying the US killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. I'm not saying that to make the death's any less significant. Because either way its horrible, but I wouldn't entirely blame the US for that.
I think the German Jews of 1936 would take issue with this.
National Pride and the belief that they would become a Superior Race to lead Europe and the world for a thousand years lead them to exterminate Jews, Slavs and Gypsies. It was the German people that turned in Jews, loaded them into box cars and into gas chambers. Hitler didn't do all of this by himself.
Hail, Hail!!!
Thats what I was alluding to a couple of posts back.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=4577079&postcount=60
I agree. Kids need to be taught the truth, but not everything needs to be taught in grade school. Leave some of the uglier stuff for highschool.
Zinn does.
You need to get over thinking that everyone needs to be taught. People form opinions for a variety of reasons and a multitude of very diverse experiences and knowledge.
You don't believe everything you hear or read do you? (and I know that you don't from your other replies, so that just strengthens my point)
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
No one, or in your experience?
btw, I've never claimed to be morally superior. But thanks for taking a shot at me.
I don't agree. Even if the US is partly to blame for some of the deaths, it still does not make them as immoral as Saddam's government. Nor does it necessarily make them more immoral than others.
Ok, how many public schools and teachers and classes have you actually gone into and found out exactly what they were teaching?
Ok. I was just trying to point out that you were making a pretty large generalization.
Got it. Ok, but I'm still not sure I'd say the US is to blame even that much. I don't know. But I won't argue with the math that 1/4 of 650,000 is still at least 100,000
Na du? Kleines Nazischwein, willst radikal sein?
I'm compelled to defend my deceased grandmother. I am a first generation American, the daughter of immigrants, Germans on my mother's side.
My grandmother despised Hitler. She never believed she was superior to any other race.
And if that wasn't bad enough, half my other relatives are Iranian ! Shit !! Do they think the holocaust never occured ? Good grief.
Somebody turned in those Jews... somebody worked the rails... somebody turned on the gas. Hitler didn't kill 6 million Jews himself.
Krystal Nicht was done by everyday Germans... not Hitler and his Brown Shirts alone. Everyday Germans painted 'JUDEN' on shoppes owned by Jews. It was Nationalism... National PRIDE that drove them. Germany was supposed to become a model of what Europe could be once the 'Jewish scourge' had been 'taken care of'.
History, like the truth, is never always pretty or nice.
Hail, Hail!!!
I'd rather be dead than red.
All you've gotta do is see the innocent patriotism present in Joey Chestnut's hot dog victory over Kobayashi and then you can come to understand the virtuous and simple beauty of American nationalism.
-Enoch Powell
Howard Zinn loves you CorporateWhore.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
we are not perfect and have made mistakes but that flag means more than some god hating, american hating propaganda
Zinn may claim to love "the people," but the people love this nation.
-Enoch Powell
What's a nation really? I love humans. One group isn't more deserving of my love than the next. We're all in this together.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde