USA - decides everything!

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  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    Solat13 wrote:
    No, we didn't need the a bomb to defeat Japan, but it it cut down the number of casualties that would have been taken on on both sides. Considering that 35% of the landing force at Okinawa and Iwo Gima were either killed or injured on the American side with double that on the Japanese side, how many people would have died (on both sides) in a land invasion of Kyshu as part of Operation Olympic when the Japanese had a standing army of between 500,000 and 900,000 waiting.

    Besides the Japanese were not some poor saps who were along for the ride in WW2. They killed between 16-30 million civilians (estimates of the number of dead in China vary) as part of the Asian Holocaust which no one ever talks about.

    We had control of japans skies and the Russians poised to invade Manchuria. It would not have come to a ground invasion in order for us to force japan into surrendering. The whole it saved lives excuse for using the atom bomb is just a cooked up excuse to save face. We dropped those bombs as a show of force to the rest of the world. Japan was on the verge of surrendering. There was no need for the two bombs.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    mammasan wrote:
    We had control of japans skies and the Russians poised to invade Manchuria. It would not have come to a ground invasion in order for us to force japan into surrendering. The whole it saved lives excuse for using the atom bomb is just a cooked up excuse to save face. We dropped those bombs as a show of force to the rest of the world. Japan was on the verge of surrendering. There was no need for the two bombs.

    as much as I'm with you on the US not using those bombs, I just dont think one can know for sure how many lives it would have saved. the japs had a thing for never surrendering and the russian army was pretty weak at that point.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    fanch75 wrote:
    20 million? 7 million? Really? That's hard to absorb and wrap my head around.

    The figure of Russian dead is now considered to have been 30 - 40 million.
  • callen
    callen Posts: 6,388
    jlew24asu wrote:
    how about giving millions the opportunity to live out their hopes and dreams.
    at the expense of wiping out the native american indians.....sure they see it different. Oh and that was just a couple of generations ago..not ancient history as the American propaganda machine would like one to think.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    callen wrote:
    at the expense of wiping out the native american indians.....sure they see it different. Oh and that was just a couple of generations ago..not ancient history as the American propaganda machine would like one to think.

    give me a fucking break. yea its horrible that the Indians lost their land. but they all got reservations throughout the entire west. then millions of people came to america for the next few hundred years and lived out their dreams.
  • callen
    callen Posts: 6,388
    jlew24asu wrote:
    as much as I'm with you on the US not using those bombs, I just dont think one can know for sure how many lives it would have saved. the japs had a thing for never surrendering and the russian army was pretty weak at that point.
    the second and third bomb were not needed.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    callen wrote:
    the second and third bomb were not needed.

    according to you?
  • BinFrog
    BinFrog MA Posts: 7,314
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Any serious historian knows that the battle of Moscow, and even more so, Stalingrad, were the turning points of the war. To say otherwise is just plain stupidity and ignorance. D-Day is almost an irrelevance compared with Stalingrad.


    They were most certainly turning points. I am not arguing against that...don't put words in my mouth. Claiming D-Day is irrelevant compared to the Stalingrad/Moscow battles is just as 'stupid' and 'ignorant' as anything you think I was wrong on.

    And any time you want to turn down that condescension knob a little bit, I was a history minor and am not a complete idiot.
    Bright eyed kid: "Wow Typo Man, you're the best!"
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  • BinFrog
    BinFrog MA Posts: 7,314
    Byrnzie wrote:
    The figure of Russian dead is now considered to have been 30 - 40 million.


    With around 20 million dying by their own countrymens' hands.
    Bright eyed kid: "Wow Typo Man, you're the best!"
    Typo Man: "Thanks kidz, but remembir, stay in skool!"
  • callen
    callen Posts: 6,388
    jlew24asu wrote:
    give me a fucking break. yea its horrible that the Indians lost their land. but they all got reservations throughout the entire west. then millions of people came to america for the next few hundred years and lived out their dreams.
    oh those lucky indians..they lived in Virginia.....forced to move to Nevada....after most of their kin were exterminated... woo hoo...
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    jlew24asu wrote:
    as much as I'm with you on the US not using those bombs, I just dont think one can know for sure how many lives it would have saved. the japs had a thing for never surrendering and the russian army was pretty weak at that point.

    Did you know that the fire bombing of Tokyo destroyed more property and killed more people than either atomic bomb. Why not carry out air raids using conventional weapons. The results would have been the same. The reason why the atomic bomb was used was simply a show of force. Truman wanted the world to see that we where the Alpha Dog. During the Potsdam Conference Truman made it a point to tell Stalin about the weapon even though at that point relations between the US/UK and Russia had started to sour. Japan at the point of the two attacks had already offered to surrender. We could have definitely, through Russia, worked out a surrender agreement satisfactory to both. The Japanese government had actually contacted both the governments od Russia and Switzerland to help them reach a peace agreement with the US/UK.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • callen
    callen Posts: 6,388
    jlew24asu wrote:
    according to you?
    had a great conversation with my grandfather many years ago.......he was a bomber pilot and flew B29's.....he thought they were a waste...not that this adds any credibility, just there are others that feel the same.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • NMyTree
    NMyTree Posts: 2,374
    jlew24asu wrote:
    give me a fucking break. yea its horrible that the Indians lost their land. but they all got reservations throughout the entire west. then millions of people came to america for the next few hundred years and lived out their dreams.

    What an embarrasement.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    NMyTree wrote:
    What an embarrasement.

    what would you rather I do..hate my country because we had a war with the Indians hundreds of years ago? maybe you want me to apologize for slavery too.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    BinFrog wrote:
    With around 20 million dying by their own countrymens' hands.

    No, I'm talking about those killed as a direct result of the Nazi invasion. The release of many Russian archives over the past 5 - 10 years shows that Stalin tried to hide the true cost of the war re:Russian casualties. All recent historians who have written about the Eastern front, such as Anthony Beevor and Richard Overy, put the figure at between 30 and 40 million.
  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    When all is said and done, I'm really beginning to see that the meek really do inherit the earth (in a modest and wise way).

    Whether the meek are humans, or not, is to be determined as chaos takes care of itself in a circular pattern of extinction and rebirth.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

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  • spiral out
    spiral out Posts: 1,052
    jlew24asu wrote:
    what would you rather I do..hate my country because we had a war with the Indians hundreds of years ago? maybe you want me to apologize for slavery too.

    You don't need to hate your country.

    It's ok to admit that a countries actions past or present are not right.

    It's not black and white, pointing out a countries mistakes does not = we must hate them.
    Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!

    The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    spiral out wrote:
    You don't need to hate your country.

    It's ok to admit that a countries actions past or present are not right.

    It's not black and white, pointing out a countries mistakes does not = we must hate them.

    I do admit my countries faults. and its horrible that the native Americans lost their land but this shouldnt even be an issue when trying to discuss all the countless opportunities my country has given to people over hundreds of years.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    mammasan wrote:
    Did you know that the fire bombing of Tokyo destroyed more property and killed more people than either atomic bomb. Why not carry out air raids using conventional weapons. The results would have been the same. The reason why the atomic bomb was used was simply a show of force. Truman wanted the world to see that we where the Alpha Dog. During the Potsdam Conference Truman made it a point to tell Stalin about the weapon even though at that point relations between the US/UK and Russia had started to sour. Japan at the point of the two attacks had already offered to surrender. We could have definitely, through Russia, worked out a surrender agreement satisfactory to both. The Japanese government had actually contacted both the governments od Russia and Switzerland to help them reach a peace agreement with the US/UK.

    I just dont think that firing off the atomic bombs was only because we wanted to show Russia we were the tough guy in the world. its not as cut and dry for me. sure it may have been a factor, but I think it was one factor of many.
  • darkcrow
    darkcrow Posts: 1,102
    mammasan wrote:
    Did you know that the fire bombing of Tokyo destroyed more property and killed more people than either atomic bomb. Why not carry out air raids using conventional weapons. The results would have been the same. The reason why the atomic bomb was used was simply a show of force. Truman wanted the world to see that we where the Alpha Dog. During the Potsdam Conference Truman made it a point to tell Stalin about the weapon even though at that point relations between the US/UK and Russia had started to sour. Japan at the point of the two attacks had already offered to surrender. We could have definitely, through Russia, worked out a surrender agreement satisfactory to both. The Japanese government had actually contacted both the governments od Russia and Switzerland to help them reach a peace agreement with the US/UK.
    there is still huge debate among historians about the reasons why the bomb was used. it really isn't as cut and dry as "show of force".
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