True. Had the allied powers had lesser men as leaders, though it pains me to label Stalin a great man, the outcome could have been different. All you have to do is look at how Britian dealt with Hitler while Chamberlain was at the helm and how they dealt with Hitler while Churchill was in charge.
...
Russia needed an asshole like Stalin to go up against Hitler. The Russians held their own in places like Stalingrad... even though Patton was right... they were assholes.
If Hitler never opened that Eastern Front... Russia would have pretty much stayed out of the war until the end was near... and jumped on the side that was going to win. They declared war on Japan the day after Hiroshima.
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Hail, Hail!!!
...
Russia needed an asshole like Stalin to go up against Hitler. The Russians held their own in places like Stalingrad... even though Patton was right... they were assholes.
If Hitler never opened that Eastern Front... Russia would have pretty much stayed out of the war until the end was near... and jumped on the side that was going to win. They declared war on Japan the day after Hiroshima.
From what I have read they didn't even want to declare war on Japan. They where convinced by the US and UK to do so in order to speed up Japan's surrendor.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
One fucked up country that has of course given their self the power to decide everything...
Am I right or am i right?
You are so very right! I hate this place. What ever happens to us we deserve it. We tell other countries how to live there lives. There is always someone ready to knock out the bully.
America! I love you! You gave the world Buffalo Wings!
Yes! How can someone hate the country that brought Buffalo Wings to the table (pun?)
Viggo, I've visited this thread and read your opening posts a few times, and I can't get over some of the shit you've said. I'm not gonna argue, I just need you to know how stupid some of that stuff was.
EDIT: I saw your post in which you admitted that the stuff was stupid... That's a step in the right direction.
From what I have read they didn't even want to declare war on Japan. They where convinced by the US and UK to do so in order to speed up Japan's surrendor.
I remember reading in college that FDR wanted the Soviets to break the neutrality pact in 1945 and help the U.S. and Britain get Japan to surrender, but Stalin wanted to keep building up his forces along the Japanese border and waiting until it was opportunistic to enter.
FDR then died and Truman took over and didn't want Soviet involvement and wanted Japan to unconditionally surrender on its own and threatened to use the atomic bomb if they didn't surrender. Stalin got word of this and moved up his attack plans by a few weeks and within 48 hours of Hiroshima the USSR declared war on Japan and Soviet troops attacked Manchuria within an hour after declaring war.
5 days later the Japanese surrendered to the Allies but not to Russia. And technically the U.S.S.R. / Russia and Japan still have never signed a peace treaty ending WW2.
I remember reading in college that FDR wanted the Soviets to break the neutrality pact in 1945 and help the U.S. and Britain get Japan to surrender, but Stalin wanted to keep building up his forces along the Japanese border and waiting until it was opportunistic to enter.
FDR then died and Truman took over and didn't want Soviet involvement and wanted Japan to unconditionally surrender on its own and threatened to use the atomic bomb if they didn't surrender. Stalin got word of this and moved up his attack plans by a few weeks and within 48 hours of Hiroshima the USSR declared war on Japan and Soviet troops attacked Manchuria within an hour after declaring war.
5 days later the Japanese surrendered to the Allies but not to Russia. And technically the U.S.S.R. / Russia and Japan still have never signed a peace treaty ending WW2.
Yes that is correct. Stalin agreed to invade Japan, at the Yalta Conference, 3 months after the war ended in Europe. He didn't want to do it earlier because he did not want to fight a war on two fronts and wanted to dedicate the full might of the Red Army at Germany.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
A question I've always had is whether there were more than two a-bombs. For example, what would have happened had Japan not surrendered after Nagasaki?
A question I've always had is whether there were more than two a-bombs. For example, what would have happened had Japan not surrendered after Nagasaki?
We didn't need to drop the atom bomb in order to defeat Japan. With Russia invading Manchuria the Japanese would have surrendered in a short matter of time without the US having to invade Japan. Also we caused far more damage, death and destruction when we fire bombed Tokyo than any of the two atom bombs.
The dropping of those bombs was not a means to end the war but a show of force for the Soviets and the rest of the world that the US was now the alpha male.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
We didn't need to drop the atom bomb in order to defeat Japan. With Russia invading Manchuria the Japanese would have surrendered in a short matter of time without the US having to invade Japan. Also we caused far more damage, death and destruction when we fire bombed Tokyo than any of the two atom bombs.
The dropping of those bombs was not a means to end the war but a show of force for the Soviets and the rest of the world that the US was now the alpha male.
No, we didn't need the a bomb to defeat Japan, but it it cut down the number of casualties that would have been taken on on both sides. Considering that 35% of the landing force at Okinawa and Iwo Gima were either killed or injured on the American side with double that on the Japanese side, how many people would have died (on both sides) in a land invasion of Kyshu as part of Operation Olympic when the Japanese had a standing army of between 500,000 and 900,000 waiting.
Besides the Japanese were not some poor saps who were along for the ride in WW2. They killed between 16-30 million civilians (estimates of the number of dead in China vary) as part of the Asian Holocaust which no one ever talks about.
No, we didn't need the a bomb to defeat Japan, but it it cut down the number of casualties that would have been taken on on both sides. Considering that 35% of the landing force at Okinawa and Iwo Gima were either killed or injured on the American side with double that on the Japanese side, how many people would have died (on both sides) in a land invasion of Kyshu as part of Operation Olympic when the Japanese had a standing army of between 500,000 and 900,000 waiting.
Besides the Japanese were not some poor saps who were along for the ride in WW2. They killed between 16-30 million civilians (estimates of the number of dead in China vary) as part of the Asian Holocaust which no one ever talks about.
We had control of japans skies and the Russians poised to invade Manchuria. It would not have come to a ground invasion in order for us to force japan into surrendering. The whole it saved lives excuse for using the atom bomb is just a cooked up excuse to save face. We dropped those bombs as a show of force to the rest of the world. Japan was on the verge of surrendering. There was no need for the two bombs.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
We had control of japans skies and the Russians poised to invade Manchuria. It would not have come to a ground invasion in order for us to force japan into surrendering. The whole it saved lives excuse for using the atom bomb is just a cooked up excuse to save face. We dropped those bombs as a show of force to the rest of the world. Japan was on the verge of surrendering. There was no need for the two bombs.
as much as I'm with you on the US not using those bombs, I just dont think one can know for sure how many lives it would have saved. the japs had a thing for never surrendering and the russian army was pretty weak at that point.
how about giving millions the opportunity to live out their hopes and dreams.
at the expense of wiping out the native american indians.....sure they see it different. Oh and that was just a couple of generations ago..not ancient history as the American propaganda machine would like one to think.
at the expense of wiping out the native american indians.....sure they see it different. Oh and that was just a couple of generations ago..not ancient history as the American propaganda machine would like one to think.
give me a fucking break. yea its horrible that the Indians lost their land. but they all got reservations throughout the entire west. then millions of people came to america for the next few hundred years and lived out their dreams.
as much as I'm with you on the US not using those bombs, I just dont think one can know for sure how many lives it would have saved. the japs had a thing for never surrendering and the russian army was pretty weak at that point.
Any serious historian knows that the battle of Moscow, and even more so, Stalingrad, were the turning points of the war. To say otherwise is just plain stupidity and ignorance. D-Day is almost an irrelevance compared with Stalingrad.
They were most certainly turning points. I am not arguing against that...don't put words in my mouth. Claiming D-Day is irrelevant compared to the Stalingrad/Moscow battles is just as 'stupid' and 'ignorant' as anything you think I was wrong on.
And any time you want to turn down that condescension knob a little bit, I was a history minor and am not a complete idiot.
Bright eyed kid: "Wow Typo Man, you're the best!"
Typo Man: "Thanks kidz, but remembir, stay in skool!"
give me a fucking break. yea its horrible that the Indians lost their land. but they all got reservations throughout the entire west. then millions of people came to america for the next few hundred years and lived out their dreams.
oh those lucky indians..they lived in Virginia.....forced to move to Nevada....after most of their kin were exterminated... woo hoo...
as much as I'm with you on the US not using those bombs, I just dont think one can know for sure how many lives it would have saved. the japs had a thing for never surrendering and the russian army was pretty weak at that point.
Did you know that the fire bombing of Tokyo destroyed more property and killed more people than either atomic bomb. Why not carry out air raids using conventional weapons. The results would have been the same. The reason why the atomic bomb was used was simply a show of force. Truman wanted the world to see that we where the Alpha Dog. During the Potsdam Conference Truman made it a point to tell Stalin about the weapon even though at that point relations between the US/UK and Russia had started to sour. Japan at the point of the two attacks had already offered to surrender. We could have definitely, through Russia, worked out a surrender agreement satisfactory to both. The Japanese government had actually contacted both the governments od Russia and Switzerland to help them reach a peace agreement with the US/UK.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
had a great conversation with my grandfather many years ago.......he was a bomber pilot and flew B29's.....he thought they were a waste...not that this adds any credibility, just there are others that feel the same.
give me a fucking break. yea its horrible that the Indians lost their land. but they all got reservations throughout the entire west. then millions of people came to america for the next few hundred years and lived out their dreams.
what would you rather I do..hate my country because we had a war with the Indians hundreds of years ago? maybe you want me to apologize for slavery too.
With around 20 million dying by their own countrymens' hands.
No, I'm talking about those killed as a direct result of the Nazi invasion. The release of many Russian archives over the past 5 - 10 years shows that Stalin tried to hide the true cost of the war re:Russian casualties. All recent historians who have written about the Eastern front, such as Anthony Beevor and Richard Overy, put the figure at between 30 and 40 million.
When all is said and done, I'm really beginning to see that the meek really do inherit the earth (in a modest and wise way).
Whether the meek are humans, or not, is to be determined as chaos takes care of itself in a circular pattern of extinction and rebirth.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
what would you rather I do..hate my country because we had a war with the Indians hundreds of years ago? maybe you want me to apologize for slavery too.
You don't need to hate your country.
It's ok to admit that a countries actions past or present are not right.
It's not black and white, pointing out a countries mistakes does not = we must hate them.
Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
It's ok to admit that a countries actions past or present are not right.
It's not black and white, pointing out a countries mistakes does not = we must hate them.
I do admit my countries faults. and its horrible that the native Americans lost their land but this shouldnt even be an issue when trying to discuss all the countless opportunities my country has given to people over hundreds of years.
Did you know that the fire bombing of Tokyo destroyed more property and killed more people than either atomic bomb. Why not carry out air raids using conventional weapons. The results would have been the same. The reason why the atomic bomb was used was simply a show of force. Truman wanted the world to see that we where the Alpha Dog. During the Potsdam Conference Truman made it a point to tell Stalin about the weapon even though at that point relations between the US/UK and Russia had started to sour. Japan at the point of the two attacks had already offered to surrender. We could have definitely, through Russia, worked out a surrender agreement satisfactory to both. The Japanese government had actually contacted both the governments od Russia and Switzerland to help them reach a peace agreement with the US/UK.
I just dont think that firing off the atomic bombs was only because we wanted to show Russia we were the tough guy in the world. its not as cut and dry for me. sure it may have been a factor, but I think it was one factor of many.
Did you know that the fire bombing of Tokyo destroyed more property and killed more people than either atomic bomb. Why not carry out air raids using conventional weapons. The results would have been the same. The reason why the atomic bomb was used was simply a show of force. Truman wanted the world to see that we where the Alpha Dog. During the Potsdam Conference Truman made it a point to tell Stalin about the weapon even though at that point relations between the US/UK and Russia had started to sour. Japan at the point of the two attacks had already offered to surrender. We could have definitely, through Russia, worked out a surrender agreement satisfactory to both. The Japanese government had actually contacted both the governments od Russia and Switzerland to help them reach a peace agreement with the US/UK.
there is still huge debate among historians about the reasons why the bomb was used. it really isn't as cut and dry as "show of force".
Comments
Russia needed an asshole like Stalin to go up against Hitler. The Russians held their own in places like Stalingrad... even though Patton was right... they were assholes.
If Hitler never opened that Eastern Front... Russia would have pretty much stayed out of the war until the end was near... and jumped on the side that was going to win. They declared war on Japan the day after Hiroshima.
Hail, Hail!!!
From what I have read they didn't even want to declare war on Japan. They where convinced by the US and UK to do so in order to speed up Japan's surrendor.
You are so very right! I hate this place. What ever happens to us we deserve it. We tell other countries how to live there lives. There is always someone ready to knock out the bully.
Yes! How can someone hate the country that brought Buffalo Wings to the table (pun?)
Viggo, I've visited this thread and read your opening posts a few times, and I can't get over some of the shit you've said. I'm not gonna argue, I just need you to know how stupid some of that stuff was.
EDIT: I saw your post in which you admitted that the stuff was stupid... That's a step in the right direction.
I remember reading in college that FDR wanted the Soviets to break the neutrality pact in 1945 and help the U.S. and Britain get Japan to surrender, but Stalin wanted to keep building up his forces along the Japanese border and waiting until it was opportunistic to enter.
FDR then died and Truman took over and didn't want Soviet involvement and wanted Japan to unconditionally surrender on its own and threatened to use the atomic bomb if they didn't surrender. Stalin got word of this and moved up his attack plans by a few weeks and within 48 hours of Hiroshima the USSR declared war on Japan and Soviet troops attacked Manchuria within an hour after declaring war.
5 days later the Japanese surrendered to the Allies but not to Russia. And technically the U.S.S.R. / Russia and Japan still have never signed a peace treaty ending WW2.
- 8/28/98
- 9/2/00
- 4/28/03, 5/3/03, 7/3/03, 7/5/03, 7/6/03, 7/9/03, 7/11/03, 7/12/03, 7/14/03
- 9/28/04, 9/29/04, 10/1/04, 10/2/04
- 9/11/05, 9/12/05, 9/13/05, 9/30/05, 10/1/05, 10/3/05
- 5/12/06, 5/13/06, 5/27/06, 5/28/06, 5/30/06, 6/1/06, 6/3/06, 6/23/06, 7/22/06, 7/23/06, 12/2/06, 12/9/06
- 8/2/07, 8/5/07
- 6/19/08, 6/20/08, 6/22/08, 6/24/08, 6/25/08, 6/27/08, 6/28/08, 6/30/08, 7/1/08
- 8/23/09, 8/24/09, 9/21/09, 9/22/09, 10/27/09, 10/28/09, 10/30/09, 10/31/09
- 5/15/10, 5/17/10, 5/18/10, 5/20/10, 5/21/10, 10/23/10, 10/24/10
- 9/11/11, 9/12/11
- 10/18/13, 10/21/13, 10/22/13, 11/30/13, 12/4/13
Yes that is correct. Stalin agreed to invade Japan, at the Yalta Conference, 3 months after the war ended in Europe. He didn't want to do it earlier because he did not want to fight a war on two fronts and wanted to dedicate the full might of the Red Army at Germany.
A question I've always had is whether there were more than two a-bombs. For example, what would have happened had Japan not surrendered after Nagasaki?
We didn't need to drop the atom bomb in order to defeat Japan. With Russia invading Manchuria the Japanese would have surrendered in a short matter of time without the US having to invade Japan. Also we caused far more damage, death and destruction when we fire bombed Tokyo than any of the two atom bombs.
The dropping of those bombs was not a means to end the war but a show of force for the Soviets and the rest of the world that the US was now the alpha male.
No, we didn't need the a bomb to defeat Japan, but it it cut down the number of casualties that would have been taken on on both sides. Considering that 35% of the landing force at Okinawa and Iwo Gima were either killed or injured on the American side with double that on the Japanese side, how many people would have died (on both sides) in a land invasion of Kyshu as part of Operation Olympic when the Japanese had a standing army of between 500,000 and 900,000 waiting.
Besides the Japanese were not some poor saps who were along for the ride in WW2. They killed between 16-30 million civilians (estimates of the number of dead in China vary) as part of the Asian Holocaust which no one ever talks about.
- 8/28/98
- 9/2/00
- 4/28/03, 5/3/03, 7/3/03, 7/5/03, 7/6/03, 7/9/03, 7/11/03, 7/12/03, 7/14/03
- 9/28/04, 9/29/04, 10/1/04, 10/2/04
- 9/11/05, 9/12/05, 9/13/05, 9/30/05, 10/1/05, 10/3/05
- 5/12/06, 5/13/06, 5/27/06, 5/28/06, 5/30/06, 6/1/06, 6/3/06, 6/23/06, 7/22/06, 7/23/06, 12/2/06, 12/9/06
- 8/2/07, 8/5/07
- 6/19/08, 6/20/08, 6/22/08, 6/24/08, 6/25/08, 6/27/08, 6/28/08, 6/30/08, 7/1/08
- 8/23/09, 8/24/09, 9/21/09, 9/22/09, 10/27/09, 10/28/09, 10/30/09, 10/31/09
- 5/15/10, 5/17/10, 5/18/10, 5/20/10, 5/21/10, 10/23/10, 10/24/10
- 9/11/11, 9/12/11
- 10/18/13, 10/21/13, 10/22/13, 11/30/13, 12/4/13
We had control of japans skies and the Russians poised to invade Manchuria. It would not have come to a ground invasion in order for us to force japan into surrendering. The whole it saved lives excuse for using the atom bomb is just a cooked up excuse to save face. We dropped those bombs as a show of force to the rest of the world. Japan was on the verge of surrendering. There was no need for the two bombs.
as much as I'm with you on the US not using those bombs, I just dont think one can know for sure how many lives it would have saved. the japs had a thing for never surrendering and the russian army was pretty weak at that point.
The figure of Russian dead is now considered to have been 30 - 40 million.
give me a fucking break. yea its horrible that the Indians lost their land. but they all got reservations throughout the entire west. then millions of people came to america for the next few hundred years and lived out their dreams.
according to you?
They were most certainly turning points. I am not arguing against that...don't put words in my mouth. Claiming D-Day is irrelevant compared to the Stalingrad/Moscow battles is just as 'stupid' and 'ignorant' as anything you think I was wrong on.
And any time you want to turn down that condescension knob a little bit, I was a history minor and am not a complete idiot.
Typo Man: "Thanks kidz, but remembir, stay in skool!"
With around 20 million dying by their own countrymens' hands.
Typo Man: "Thanks kidz, but remembir, stay in skool!"
Did you know that the fire bombing of Tokyo destroyed more property and killed more people than either atomic bomb. Why not carry out air raids using conventional weapons. The results would have been the same. The reason why the atomic bomb was used was simply a show of force. Truman wanted the world to see that we where the Alpha Dog. During the Potsdam Conference Truman made it a point to tell Stalin about the weapon even though at that point relations between the US/UK and Russia had started to sour. Japan at the point of the two attacks had already offered to surrender. We could have definitely, through Russia, worked out a surrender agreement satisfactory to both. The Japanese government had actually contacted both the governments od Russia and Switzerland to help them reach a peace agreement with the US/UK.
What an embarrasement.
what would you rather I do..hate my country because we had a war with the Indians hundreds of years ago? maybe you want me to apologize for slavery too.
No, I'm talking about those killed as a direct result of the Nazi invasion. The release of many Russian archives over the past 5 - 10 years shows that Stalin tried to hide the true cost of the war re:Russian casualties. All recent historians who have written about the Eastern front, such as Anthony Beevor and Richard Overy, put the figure at between 30 and 40 million.
Whether the meek are humans, or not, is to be determined as chaos takes care of itself in a circular pattern of extinction and rebirth.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
You don't need to hate your country.
It's ok to admit that a countries actions past or present are not right.
It's not black and white, pointing out a countries mistakes does not = we must hate them.
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
I do admit my countries faults. and its horrible that the native Americans lost their land but this shouldnt even be an issue when trying to discuss all the countless opportunities my country has given to people over hundreds of years.
I just dont think that firing off the atomic bombs was only because we wanted to show Russia we were the tough guy in the world. its not as cut and dry for me. sure it may have been a factor, but I think it was one factor of many.
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