Would you prefer we lose the war in Iraq?

RainDog wrote:

Wouldn't the first step to "winning" the war on terror be to admit that maybe we shouldn't have helped create terrorism in the first place? Sort of like having to stand in front of a group of people and say:

"Hi. I'm the United States of America, and I'm addicted to terrorism. It started out as all fun and games - a little political influence here, a little military influence there; but then it escalated into something.....something I lost control of. I think I started to realize that I had a problem when one morning I awoke with a massive pain in my eastern seaboard. But I didn't fully realize. No, as usual, I felt a little, you know, 'hair of the dog' would help me out - but that turned into an ongoing bender I'm not sure I'll ever recover from. It was good time at first - imbibing a few deaths here and there - but now it seems I just don't feel myself without having dozens, sometimes hundreds, of deaths a day. A couple in the morning, a few to get me through lunch - and by evening, all bets are off. I really feel like I need help - I can't beat this on my own. But, my actions of late - as a result of this addiction - have alienated me from most of my friends. I don't know where to turn."

like a medic/drug company who'd spread a disease they have the cure/medic for...

what the fuck happened to osama bin laden? you remember, the terrorist guy? the one who masterminded 9/11?

i haven't heard the bushies mention him in a long time. are he & georgie buddies now, maybe osama sends him post cards from the riviera, "wish you were here", that sort of thing?

keeponrockin wrote:

Ya, I think we need to get Osama. How is it that Canada is the main force in Afganistan right now.

We're not, only a small portion of the military in Afghan. are from Canada, like 2000 out of 25000 soldiers, mostly from OTAN forces and USA forces, our PM is a douche for making us believe we were the leaders in Afghanistan, we're not, our soldiers are puppets right now, it's sad really...

Pegasus wrote:

Can't say I feel particularly for the soldiers on the other hand; there's no draft, they have a bloody choice.

Very true...and I think it's a very unwise decision to join the military, as noble as jingoes make it sound. However, a good share of soldiers do come from poverty and see this as their only chance to get out of it. Plus they're often flat out lied to by recruiters....many at age 17 when they really have no clue what's going on anyway.

But even so, our citizens and especially our soldiers should be able to trust that they won't be put in harm's way unless it's absolutely necessary. Joining the military shouldn't by any means be the Republican-Assisted-Suicide that it's turned out to be.

Abuskedti wrote:

no my friend, it seems you have missed the fact that an obscene amount of soldiers have already died for nothing. A far more obscene amount of innocent Iraqis (all the soldiers equally innocent) have already died for nothing. We have already lost. If we come home today - and leave Iraq to the Iraqis we will have saved many many lives.

Iraq will fight it out - a number of Iraqis will continue to die - hard to imagine at any greater rate - and they will progress into the Iraq they will want to be.

The only victory we can achieve today or tomorrow would be to give Iraq back to the Iraqis. Everyday that passes our loss only grows.

Best post I've read so far in this thread....even better than any of mine, lol.

don't gimme no wrote:

Very true...and I think it's a very unwise decision to join the military, as noble as jingoes make it sound. However, a good share of soldiers do come from poverty and see this as their only chance to get out of it. Plus they're often flat out lied to by recruiters....many at age 17 when they really have no clue what's going on anyway.

But even so, our citizens and especially our soldiers should be able to trust that they won't be put in harm's way unless it's absolutely necessary. Joining the military shouldn't by any means be the Republican-Assisted-Suicide that it's turned out to be.

I agree that Irak is about Republican stupidity, but in the end they're just applying the "american way" by the book, it's how the USA do things, for decades now...

Heineken Helen wrote:

So you think it’s better that less American lives are lost than Iraqi lives? What makes an American more important or valuable than an Iraqi? Your opinion?

‘These people volunteer to give their lives to protect what you have’

I’m sorry, but how exactly are they ‘protecting’ you when they’re halfway across the world in another country that was NEVER any kind of threat to you?

Damn, a lot of good posts here. I couldn't agree with you more. Despite popular belief and the nationalism being shoved down our throats, they're not "protecting" us one bit. If anything they're making us more and more of a target for the rest of the world.

And yeah, Americans are going to say that their lives are worth more than an Iraqi life. Why? Because we're fucking brainwashed from infancy to believe that America is a chosen people and that we're better than the rest of the world. It's so fucking ridiculous. The arrogance as a nation that is instilled in us from before we can even remember is sickening.

I attended my nephew's elementary school graduation a couple of weeks ago. The principal got up and went on and on about how lucky we are to be in America, where we can live free and grow up to be whatever we want to be. As if there aren't hundreds of other places where people can do that. We've taken our standard of living and turned it into complete and utter arrogance. We say we're better than them because they live in caves or because they have to take a shit in the sand and wipe their asses with sage brush. Maybe I'm wrong, but standard of living has nothing to do with quality of life and value of life, in my opinion.

slightofjeff wrote:

Regardless of your stance on the war, as an American you really have no other choice but to hope the U.S. wins (If you don't think it's a war, I will say, "hope the U.S. gets the job done.")

Like it or not, Iraq has become the central proving ground in the fight against terror. Go home before the job is done, and the terrorists have won, regardless of what strides have been made.

It would demonstrate -- again -- that tactics of fear and terror work wonders against Americans. They don't like to get their hands dirty. They don't like the smell of their own blood. You can kill a relatively small number of them, and they will lose their nerve.

That's what it shows Al Qaeda. And that makes Al Qaeda all the more dangerous.

We can argue that Iraq wasn't a front in the fight against terror before 2003. I can buy that. But it is the pivotal front now.

Spoken like a true Texan.....

Hello? The U.S. invasion of Iraq is the biggest act of terrorism in recent years. Yes, far greater terrorist act than 9/11.

thankyougrandma wrote:

The USA won the moment they've started this stupid war without opposition

I agree...although it's not American that won, it's the aristocratic leadership that won....the American people did not want this war and do not support it. It's what Noam Chomsky details in his newest book "Failed States".....something called a democratic deficit. It's when the policy differs so greatly from the will of the people. It's essentially dictatorship, not democracy. I'm so goddamn sick and tired of the U.S. trying to spread democracy when we can't even do it right here at home.

don't gimme no wrote:

I agree...although it's not American that won, it's the aristocratic leadership that won....the American people did not want this war and do not support it. It's what Noam Chomsky details in his newest book "Failed States".....something called a democratic deficit. It's when the policy differs so greatly from the will of the people. It's essentially dictatorship, not democracy. I'm so goddamn sick and tired of the U.S. trying to spread democracy when we can't even do it right here at home.

sure, but since i don't feel like making all the exceptions, i say americans, but i should say the USA govt. more than americans...