Wouldn't the first step to "winning" the war on terror be to admit that maybe we shouldn't have helped create terrorism in the first place? Sort of like having to stand in front of a group of people and say:
"Hi. I'm the United States of America, and I'm addicted to terrorism. It started out as all fun and games - a little political influence here, a little military influence there; but then it escalated into something.....something I lost control of. I think I started to realize that I had a problem when one morning I awoke with a massive pain in my eastern seaboard. But I didn't fully realize. No, as usual, I felt a little, you know, 'hair of the dog' would help me out - but that turned into an ongoing bender I'm not sure I'll ever recover from. It was good time at first - imbibing a few deaths here and there - but now it seems I just don't feel myself without having dozens, sometimes hundreds, of deaths a day. A couple in the morning, a few to get me through lunch - and by evening, all bets are off. I really feel like I need help - I can't beat this on my own. But, my actions of late - as a result of this addiction - have alienated me from most of my friends. I don't know where to turn."
Wouldn't the first step to "winning" the war on terror be to admit that maybe we shouldn't have helped create terrorism in the first place? Sort of like having to stand in front of a group of people and say:
"Hi. I'm the United States of America, and I'm addicted to terrorism. It started out as all fun and games - a little political influence here, a little military influence there; but then it escalated into something.....something I lost control of. I think I started to realize that I had a problem when one morning I awoke with a massive pain in my eastern seaboard. But I didn't fully realize. No, as usual, I felt a little, you know, 'hair of the dog' would help me out - but that turned into an ongoing bender I'm not sure I'll ever recover from. It was good time at first - imbibing a few deaths here and there - but now it seems I just don't feel myself without having dozens, sometimes hundreds, of deaths a day. A couple in the morning, a few to get me through lunch - and by evening, all bets are off. I really feel like I need help - I can't beat this on my own. But, my actions of late - as a result of this addiction - have alienated me from most of my friends. I don't know where to turn."
like a medic/drug company who'd spread a disease they have the cure/medic for...
"L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
I'm looking out for this person by telling them how ignorant they look claiming that the military doesn't do anything for them. .
"you WANT me on that wall, you NEED me on that wall...!"
ok, calm down there jack nicholson. that was a movie. and he was still found guilty, let's remember. the ends do not justify the means.
the military is supposed to protect its citizens from attack. it's not the military's job to forcibly impose our brand of government on sovereign nations, thus embroiling us- and many of its citizens- in an escalating pissing contest with insurgent rebels. they fucked up, the military leaders- not the soldiers- so i don't think they can be trusted to figure out a way to end it. i think it's time to take the toys away from the overzealous kids and let some grown-ups take control now.
Life is the riddle
Of which we're caught in the middle.
A couple of lucky ones
Tangled up in too much love
~cowboy junkies
what the fuck happened to osama bin laden? you remember, the terrorist guy? the one who masterminded 9/11?
i haven't heard the bushies mention him in a long time. are he & georgie buddies now, maybe osama sends him post cards from the riviera, "wish you were here", that sort of thing?
Life is the riddle
Of which we're caught in the middle.
A couple of lucky ones
Tangled up in too much love
~cowboy junkies
Ya, I think we need to get Osama. How is it that Canada is the main force in Afganistan right now.
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
Ya, I think we need to get Osama. How is it that Canada is the main force in Afganistan right now.
We're not, only a small portion of the military in Afghan. are from Canada, like 2000 out of 25000 soldiers, mostly from OTAN forces and USA forces, our PM is a douche for making us believe we were the leaders in Afghanistan, we're not, our soldiers are puppets right now, it's sad really...
"L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
I don't care we loose, as long as the ordinary Iraqi people win...they didn't have a choice.
I'm not for withdrawal btw.
I was dead against going there in the first place, but once we created the mess, we have to clean it up..not sure how though...but then that's what they should have thought about before going..
looking very bleak indeed for the Iraqis.
Can't say I feel particularly for the soldiers on the other hand; there's no draft, they have a bloody choice.
The very least we owe the Iraqi people is a complete and immediate withdrawal. We owe such great reparations for our acts of terrorism toward the Iraqi people.
As for, "we have to clean it up"...??? The longer we're there, the more blood we'll be cleaning up. Sure we've made a mess, but I assure you that cleaning it up is the last thing on our minds over there. We're there for occupation and control. It was an illegal invasion. It's an illegal war. It's illegal occupation. How can you suggest that we do anything but immediately withdraw all of our troops? Really, please help me understand. It's been illegal from the start and the longer we're there the more illegal it becomes and the more damage we do to the Iraqi people and to our country.
Can't say I feel particularly for the soldiers on the other hand; there's no draft, they have a bloody choice.
Very true...and I think it's a very unwise decision to join the military, as noble as jingoes make it sound. However, a good share of soldiers do come from poverty and see this as their only chance to get out of it. Plus they're often flat out lied to by recruiters....many at age 17 when they really have no clue what's going on anyway.
But even so, our citizens and especially our soldiers should be able to trust that they won't be put in harm's way unless it's absolutely necessary. Joining the military shouldn't by any means be the Republican-Assisted-Suicide that it's turned out to be.
these people live up to their vow - and get killed.. and you enjoy the security.. and be smug abou thier sacrifice and don't even have the charactor to be greatful and supportive.
We clearly don't enjoy the security that we had even before the illegal invasion of Iraq. You're making the false assumption that because we're at war and because troops are being killed that we have better security. It's clearly the opposite. I don't mean any disrespect to our troops because I'm sure many of them actually believe in what they're doing is a good thing but it's not. As harsh as it sounds, they're part of the problem, even if they're just pawns being ordered by King George....
I read a couple of weeks ago about an officer who refused to go to Iraq solely based on the legality of this war. Kudos to him and I hope to see more following his example.
no my friend, it seems you have missed the fact that an obscene amount of soldiers have already died for nothing. A far more obscene amount of innocent Iraqis (all the soldiers equally innocent) have already died for nothing. We have already lost. If we come home today - and leave Iraq to the Iraqis we will have saved many many lives.
Iraq will fight it out - a number of Iraqis will continue to die - hard to imagine at any greater rate - and they will progress into the Iraq they will want to be.
The only victory we can achieve today or tomorrow would be to give Iraq back to the Iraqis. Everyday that passes our loss only grows.
Best post I've read so far in this thread....even better than any of mine, lol.
It would be hard for the U.S. to even define a win from this operation from it's own viewpoint. However, if the Iraqi people end up with significantly better lives, then there will be at least a positive out of it.
I'm confused. Can you please define "significantly better lives" please?
Very true...and I think it's a very unwise decision to join the military, as noble as jingoes make it sound. However, a good share of soldiers do come from poverty and see this as their only chance to get out of it. Plus they're often flat out lied to by recruiters....many at age 17 when they really have no clue what's going on anyway.
But even so, our citizens and especially our soldiers should be able to trust that they won't be put in harm's way unless it's absolutely necessary. Joining the military shouldn't by any means be the Republican-Assisted-Suicide that it's turned out to be.
I agree that Irak is about Republican stupidity, but in the end they're just applying the "american way" by the book, it's how the USA do things, for decades now...
"L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
We clearly don't enjoy the security that we had even before the illegal invasion of Iraq. You're making the false assumption that because we're at war and because troops are being killed that we have better security. It's clearly the opposite. I don't mean any disrespect to our troops because I'm sure many of them actually believe in what they're doing is a good thing but it's not. As harsh as it sounds, they're part of the problem, even if they're just pawns being ordered by King George....
I read a couple of weeks ago about an officer who refused to go to Iraq solely based on the legality of this war. Kudos to him and I hope to see more following his example.
as I have said before.. We are less safe because of this war.. but that doesn't change what the men and woman of the military volunteered to do. the fault doesn't lie with them
So you think it’s better that less American lives are lost than Iraqi lives? What makes an American more important or valuable than an Iraqi? Your opinion?
‘These people volunteer to give their lives to protect what you have’
I’m sorry, but how exactly are they ‘protecting’ you when they’re halfway across the world in another country that was NEVER any kind of threat to you?
Damn, a lot of good posts here. I couldn't agree with you more. Despite popular belief and the nationalism being shoved down our throats, they're not "protecting" us one bit. If anything they're making us more and more of a target for the rest of the world.
And yeah, Americans are going to say that their lives are worth more than an Iraqi life. Why? Because we're fucking brainwashed from infancy to believe that America is a chosen people and that we're better than the rest of the world. It's so fucking ridiculous. The arrogance as a nation that is instilled in us from before we can even remember is sickening.
I attended my nephew's elementary school graduation a couple of weeks ago. The principal got up and went on and on about how lucky we are to be in America, where we can live free and grow up to be whatever we want to be. As if there aren't hundreds of other places where people can do that. We've taken our standard of living and turned it into complete and utter arrogance. We say we're better than them because they live in caves or because they have to take a shit in the sand and wipe their asses with sage brush. Maybe I'm wrong, but standard of living has nothing to do with quality of life and value of life, in my opinion.
it will be very spineless to pull out now, after fucking up the country.
Since when is it spineless to recognize, admit, and try to correct one of the biggest mistakes in a nation's history? And by correct, I mean offering aid and reparations to the Iraqi people....not militarily and certainly not through occupying their country.
Regardless of your stance on the war, as an American you really have no other choice but to hope the U.S. wins (If you don't think it's a war, I will say, "hope the U.S. gets the job done.")
Like it or not, Iraq has become the central proving ground in the fight against terror. Go home before the job is done, and the terrorists have won, regardless of what strides have been made.
It would demonstrate -- again -- that tactics of fear and terror work wonders against Americans. They don't like to get their hands dirty. They don't like the smell of their own blood. You can kill a relatively small number of them, and they will lose their nerve.
That's what it shows Al Qaeda. And that makes Al Qaeda all the more dangerous.
We can argue that Iraq wasn't a front in the fight against terror before 2003. I can buy that. But it is the pivotal front now.
Spoken like a true Texan.....
Hello? The U.S. invasion of Iraq is the biggest act of terrorism in recent years. Yes, far greater terrorist act than 9/11.
The USA won the moment they've started this stupid war without opposition
I agree...although it's not American that won, it's the aristocratic leadership that won....the American people did not want this war and do not support it. It's what Noam Chomsky details in his newest book "Failed States".....something called a democratic deficit. It's when the policy differs so greatly from the will of the people. It's essentially dictatorship, not democracy. I'm so goddamn sick and tired of the U.S. trying to spread democracy when we can't even do it right here at home.
The very least we owe the Iraqi people is a complete and immediate withdrawal. We owe such great reparations for our acts of terrorism toward the Iraqi people.
As for, "we have to clean it up"...??? The longer we're there, the more blood we'll be cleaning up. Sure we've made a mess, but I assure you that cleaning it up is the last thing on our minds over there. We're there for occupation and control. It was an illegal invasion. It's an illegal war. It's illegal occupation. How can you suggest that we do anything but immediately withdraw all of our troops? Really, please help me understand. It's been illegal from the start and the longer we're there the more illegal it becomes and the more damage we do to the Iraqi people and to our country.
I wish it was true, and yes, the occupation fuels the fire...but abandonning the iraqis to their fate now would be cowardly, irresponsible and even on a purely selfish level, extremely dangerous.
The situation might be bad now, but the minute the military pulls out, all out Civil war explodes. Genocide. And that will spill on the whole region because the war is along religious/ethnic lines, Shia-Shiite-Kurds.
It's going to take a long time to establish a legitimate (as in not puppet) government that unites all the population..might not even be possible. Iraq has only ever existed under military rules: the Brits, Saddam, the US..
Loads of things have to change in the way the Army is used in Iraq but leaving now is not an option.
I agree...although it's not American that won, it's the aristocratic leadership that won....the American people did not want this war and do not support it. It's what Noam Chomsky details in his newest book "Failed States".....something called a democratic deficit. It's when the policy differs so greatly from the will of the people. It's essentially dictatorship, not democracy. I'm so goddamn sick and tired of the U.S. trying to spread democracy when we can't even do it right here at home.
sure, but since i don't feel like making all the exceptions, i say americans, but i should say the USA govt. more than americans...
"L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Regardless of your stance on the war, as an American you really have no other choice but to hope the U.S. wins (If you don't think it's a war, I will say, "hope the U.S. gets the job done.")
Like it or not, Iraq has become the central proving ground in the fight against terror. Go home before the job is done, and the terrorists have won, regardless of what strides have been made.
It would demonstrate -- again -- that tactics of fear and terror work wonders against Americans. They don't like to get their hands dirty. They don't like the smell of their own blood. You can kill a relatively small number of them, and they will lose their nerve.
That's what it shows Al Qaeda. And that makes Al Qaeda all the more dangerous.
We can argue that Iraq wasn't a front in the fight against terror before 2003. I can buy that. But it is the pivotal front now.
...
Then, we should give our guys a fighting chance. Turn them back into soldiers and quit making them cops. Nothing is going to change over there until we secure the place. Civilian rebuilding projects cannot progress unless those worksite are secure.
And if there's a area called the 'Triangle Of DEATH'... I think we should concentrate a massive security crackdown in that area. The borders need to be secured... the oil assets need to be secured... the roadways need to be secured. We need MORE troops over there. And the 'Iraqi Army' doesn't count. I don't care what asshole Rumsfeld or asshole Bush says about 263,000 Trainned Iraqi Forces... they are obviously worthless pieces of shit. We don't need a bunch of pansie assholes we can't trust.
Running this war from behind Rumsfeld's Desk in Washington is NOT going to win shit. We should have learned this lesson in 1969. George H.W. Bush, Colin Powell and Norman Swartzkopf learn them, but I guess Georgie Jr. was too drunk and failed that class.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I'm wondering what all those in favor of packing up and leaving Iraq think a post US military presence Iraq would look like? I'm not trying to be a smart ass I would love to know what people thought.
I'm under the impression that we need to stay and continue to help Iraq rebuild.
I also think that if we packed up and left, things in Iraq would go from bad to really bad and many more thousands of innocent people would die. I'm wondering who liberals/Dems/anti-war people would blame for the genocide that is likely to take place after we left? I mean you would have gotten your wish, an American withdrawl, but something tell me that you would still blame our government.
I'm wondering what all those in favor of packing up and leaving Iraq think a post US military presence Iraq would look like? I'm not trying to be a smart ass I would love to know what people thought.
I'm under the impression that we need to stay and continue to help Iraq rebuild.
I also think that if we packed up and left, things in Iraq would go from bad to really bad and many more thousands of innocent people would die. I'm wondering who liberals/Dems/anti-war people would blame for the genocide that is likely to take place after we left? I mean you would have gotten your wish, an American withdrawl, but something tell me that you would still blame our government.
Wake the fuck UP!!! The genocide or civil war IS HAPPENING under american watch. Tell me that you don't believe that the USA are rebuilding Iraq please, you can't continue to do something you never started...
"L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
I'm wondering what all those in favor of packing up and leaving Iraq think a post US military presence Iraq would look like? I'm not trying to be a smart ass I would love to know what people thought.
I'm under the impression that we need to stay and continue to help Iraq rebuild.
I also think that if we packed up and left, things in Iraq would go from bad to really bad and many more thousands of innocent people would die. I'm wondering who liberals/Dems/anti-war people would blame for the genocide that is likely to take place after we left? I mean you would have gotten your wish, an American withdrawl, but something tell me that you would still blame our government.
You're exactly right. I for one would still blame our government. But pulling out is necessary. Either way there are going to be many more deaths. Is it our country, or is it the people of Iraq's country? Chomsky talks about this in a recent interview with Juan Gonzalez... here's an excerpt.
AG: Do you believe, Noam Chomsky, in immediate withdrawal, that the troops should withdraw immediately?
NC: I think there is a certain principle that we should adhere to. The principle is that invading armies have no rights whatsoever. They have responsibilities. The prime responsibility is to heed the will of the victims and to pay massive reparations to the victims for the crimes they've committed. In this case, the crimes go back through the sanctions which were a monstrous crime, through the support for Saddam Hussein, right through his worst atrocities, but particularly, those of the invasion. Those are the two responsibilities of an occupying army.
Well, you know, the population has made it pretty clear. Even U.S. and British polls make that clear. Overwhelming majorities want the U.S. to set a timetable to withdraw and adhere to it. Britain and the United States refuse. Reparations, we can't even talk about; that's so far from consciousness in the doctrinal system. Well, I think that answers the question. Doesn't really matter what I think.
What matters is what Iraqis think, and I think we know that pretty well. The reason the U.S. and Britain aren't withdrawing are those I mentioned. You know, the consequences of independence for Iraq would be an ultimate nightmare for them. And they're going to try to do anything they can to prevent Iraqi democracy, as they've been trying in the past.
AG: And the argument that they will just descend into civil war and that the sectarian violence will increase, and the U.S. went in and now has a responsibility not the leave a mess?
NC: Yeah, I mean, the Germans could have given the same argument and occupied Europe, the Russians in the satellites, the Japanese in Asia, and so on. Yeah, they could have all given the same argue: well, we went in, and now we have a responsibility to ensure that terrible things don't happen, and so on. And the argument had some validity. So, when the Germans were driven out of France, let's say, there were thousands, maybe tens of thousands of people killed by -- as collaborators, and in Asia, even more so. But is that an argument for them? No. It's none of their business.
We don't know what will happen, and it's not our decision to make. It's the decision of the victims to make, not our decision. Occupying armies have no right to make the decision. We could have an academic seminar about it, in which we could discuss the likely consequences. But the point is it's not for us to say. Well, until that enters into the discussion, and the critical issues of the war, like what right do we have to invade in the first place, enter into the discussion, the media and the journalism and so on are simply part of the government propaganda system, as I say, like a high school newspaper or like Pravda during the Afghanistan war.
JG: And what of the role of the American people in this process? Clearly, it seems to me that so much of the antiwar sentiments quickly gets channeled into one or another political candidates, rather than into continuing to build a mass movement that, regardless of the political folks in office, will move to extricate the United States from this invasion.
NC: Yeah, you're absolutely right. But that's our problem. I mean, you cannot expect power centers, whether in the government or in the economic system or in the media, which are all closely linked. I mean, they aren't going to try to stimulate popular movements that will be critical of power and try to erode power. In fact, their task is the opposite. So, yes, this has to be done by a popular movement. I mean, that's the way every constructive change has taken place in the past. I mean, how did we get civil rights to the extent that they exist, minority rights, women's rights, the benefits system that does exist, and so on? I mean, these things are not gifts from above; they are won from below. And it's going to be the same on this.
Here's the link to the entire article if anyone is interested. Chomsky is a hero of mine....I love what he has to say.
I'm wondering what all those in favor of packing up and leaving Iraq think a post US military presence Iraq would look like? I'm not trying to be a smart ass I would love to know what people thought.
I'm under the impression that we need to stay and continue to help Iraq rebuild.
I also think that if we packed up and left, things in Iraq would go from bad to really bad and many more thousands of innocent people would die. I'm wondering who liberals/Dems/anti-war people would blame for the genocide that is likely to take place after we left? I mean you would have gotten your wish, an American withdrawl, but something tell me that you would still blame our government.
...
The same shit that is currently going on... Sectarian Violence (a.k.a. Civil War) between Shi'ites and Sunnis. Wasn't that the excuse du yesterjour for keeping our troops there... to prevent a Civil War? As for the Kurds... I can see them working out a deal with the Shi'ites to create their own seperate state... much to the dismay of Turkey.
The Shi'ites in charge have already begun to form 'Death Squads' to got out and extract vengence on the Sunnis for all of those years of oppression. and can you really blame them? The Sunnis in neighboring countries don't want another Iran in their midst. Muqtada al Sadr got his own loyalists and he has several seats in the Iraqi parliment. That's democracy at work and there ain't shit we can say about it because we're the ones who've installed it. These fuckers are gonna keep on fighting til that meteor slams into the Pacific and puts us all out of our misery.
...
Now... what is YOUR vision of 'Winning The War' and what does Iraq have to look like before we can leave? And please, consider the facts on the ground over there... the culture, history, religion, customs, etc... and avoid the improbable peaches and cream outcome we tend to see through American eyes.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Kuwait? a small little warmup war over gaining control of a few oilfields? You think the US won't touch Kuwait?
The war is a farce. What are they at? 300,000 dead Iraqi's now? We gonna stop at a million?
Bush is a fucker....fucking up the world....
fight or blow...this lagging around crap is just one long evil deception.
Like a guy who hangs over a dying body placing his hand over the guys mouth to suffocate him when no one is looking so the guy will die faster....then he can be the first to steal his wallet and jewellry.
Comments
"Hi. I'm the United States of America, and I'm addicted to terrorism. It started out as all fun and games - a little political influence here, a little military influence there; but then it escalated into something.....something I lost control of. I think I started to realize that I had a problem when one morning I awoke with a massive pain in my eastern seaboard. But I didn't fully realize. No, as usual, I felt a little, you know, 'hair of the dog' would help me out - but that turned into an ongoing bender I'm not sure I'll ever recover from. It was good time at first - imbibing a few deaths here and there - but now it seems I just don't feel myself without having dozens, sometimes hundreds, of deaths a day. A couple in the morning, a few to get me through lunch - and by evening, all bets are off. I really feel like I need help - I can't beat this on my own. But, my actions of late - as a result of this addiction - have alienated me from most of my friends. I don't know where to turn."
like a medic/drug company who'd spread a disease they have the cure/medic for...
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
"you WANT me on that wall, you NEED me on that wall...!"
ok, calm down there jack nicholson. that was a movie. and he was still found guilty, let's remember. the ends do not justify the means.
the military is supposed to protect its citizens from attack. it's not the military's job to forcibly impose our brand of government on sovereign nations, thus embroiling us- and many of its citizens- in an escalating pissing contest with insurgent rebels. they fucked up, the military leaders- not the soldiers- so i don't think they can be trusted to figure out a way to end it. i think it's time to take the toys away from the overzealous kids and let some grown-ups take control now.
Of which we're caught in the middle.
A couple of lucky ones
Tangled up in too much love
~cowboy junkies
i haven't heard the bushies mention him in a long time. are he & georgie buddies now, maybe osama sends him post cards from the riviera, "wish you were here", that sort of thing?
Of which we're caught in the middle.
A couple of lucky ones
Tangled up in too much love
~cowboy junkies
We're not, only a small portion of the military in Afghan. are from Canada, like 2000 out of 25000 soldiers, mostly from OTAN forces and USA forces, our PM is a douche for making us believe we were the leaders in Afghanistan, we're not, our soldiers are puppets right now, it's sad really...
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
As for, "we have to clean it up"...??? The longer we're there, the more blood we'll be cleaning up. Sure we've made a mess, but I assure you that cleaning it up is the last thing on our minds over there. We're there for occupation and control. It was an illegal invasion. It's an illegal war. It's illegal occupation. How can you suggest that we do anything but immediately withdraw all of our troops? Really, please help me understand. It's been illegal from the start and the longer we're there the more illegal it becomes and the more damage we do to the Iraqi people and to our country.
But even so, our citizens and especially our soldiers should be able to trust that they won't be put in harm's way unless it's absolutely necessary. Joining the military shouldn't by any means be the Republican-Assisted-Suicide that it's turned out to be.
I read a couple of weeks ago about an officer who refused to go to Iraq solely based on the legality of this war. Kudos to him and I hope to see more following his example.
I agree that Irak is about Republican stupidity, but in the end they're just applying the "american way" by the book, it's how the USA do things, for decades now...
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
as I have said before.. We are less safe because of this war.. but that doesn't change what the men and woman of the military volunteered to do. the fault doesn't lie with them
And yeah, Americans are going to say that their lives are worth more than an Iraqi life. Why? Because we're fucking brainwashed from infancy to believe that America is a chosen people and that we're better than the rest of the world. It's so fucking ridiculous. The arrogance as a nation that is instilled in us from before we can even remember is sickening.
I attended my nephew's elementary school graduation a couple of weeks ago. The principal got up and went on and on about how lucky we are to be in America, where we can live free and grow up to be whatever we want to be. As if there aren't hundreds of other places where people can do that. We've taken our standard of living and turned it into complete and utter arrogance. We say we're better than them because they live in caves or because they have to take a shit in the sand and wipe their asses with sage brush. Maybe I'm wrong, but standard of living has nothing to do with quality of life and value of life, in my opinion.
Hello? The U.S. invasion of Iraq is the biggest act of terrorism in recent years. Yes, far greater terrorist act than 9/11.
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
The situation might be bad now, but the minute the military pulls out, all out Civil war explodes. Genocide. And that will spill on the whole region because the war is along religious/ethnic lines, Shia-Shiite-Kurds.
It's going to take a long time to establish a legitimate (as in not puppet) government that unites all the population..might not even be possible. Iraq has only ever existed under military rules: the Brits, Saddam, the US..
Loads of things have to change in the way the Army is used in Iraq but leaving now is not an option.
sure, but since i don't feel like making all the exceptions, i say americans, but i should say the USA govt. more than americans...
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
We extracted Iraq from Kuwait.. that was a war we won.
Then, we should give our guys a fighting chance. Turn them back into soldiers and quit making them cops. Nothing is going to change over there until we secure the place. Civilian rebuilding projects cannot progress unless those worksite are secure.
And if there's a area called the 'Triangle Of DEATH'... I think we should concentrate a massive security crackdown in that area. The borders need to be secured... the oil assets need to be secured... the roadways need to be secured. We need MORE troops over there. And the 'Iraqi Army' doesn't count. I don't care what asshole Rumsfeld or asshole Bush says about 263,000 Trainned Iraqi Forces... they are obviously worthless pieces of shit. We don't need a bunch of pansie assholes we can't trust.
Running this war from behind Rumsfeld's Desk in Washington is NOT going to win shit. We should have learned this lesson in 1969. George H.W. Bush, Colin Powell and Norman Swartzkopf learn them, but I guess Georgie Jr. was too drunk and failed that class.
Hail, Hail!!!
you won what? A fucking trophy? my2hands is right, there's no win or lose in a war...
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
I'm under the impression that we need to stay and continue to help Iraq rebuild.
I also think that if we packed up and left, things in Iraq would go from bad to really bad and many more thousands of innocent people would die. I'm wondering who liberals/Dems/anti-war people would blame for the genocide that is likely to take place after we left? I mean you would have gotten your wish, an American withdrawl, but something tell me that you would still blame our government.
Wake the fuck UP!!! The genocide or civil war IS HAPPENING under american watch. Tell me that you don't believe that the USA are rebuilding Iraq please, you can't continue to do something you never started...
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
no trophy .. we won the freedom of Kuwait. We won peace. we showed the world we stood for peace and against violent invasions.
guess we lied
AG: Do you believe, Noam Chomsky, in immediate withdrawal, that the troops should withdraw immediately?
NC: I think there is a certain principle that we should adhere to. The principle is that invading armies have no rights whatsoever. They have responsibilities. The prime responsibility is to heed the will of the victims and to pay massive reparations to the victims for the crimes they've committed. In this case, the crimes go back through the sanctions which were a monstrous crime, through the support for Saddam Hussein, right through his worst atrocities, but particularly, those of the invasion. Those are the two responsibilities of an occupying army.
Well, you know, the population has made it pretty clear. Even U.S. and British polls make that clear. Overwhelming majorities want the U.S. to set a timetable to withdraw and adhere to it. Britain and the United States refuse. Reparations, we can't even talk about; that's so far from consciousness in the doctrinal system. Well, I think that answers the question. Doesn't really matter what I think.
What matters is what Iraqis think, and I think we know that pretty well. The reason the U.S. and Britain aren't withdrawing are those I mentioned. You know, the consequences of independence for Iraq would be an ultimate nightmare for them. And they're going to try to do anything they can to prevent Iraqi democracy, as they've been trying in the past.
AG: And the argument that they will just descend into civil war and that the sectarian violence will increase, and the U.S. went in and now has a responsibility not the leave a mess?
NC: Yeah, I mean, the Germans could have given the same argument and occupied Europe, the Russians in the satellites, the Japanese in Asia, and so on. Yeah, they could have all given the same argue: well, we went in, and now we have a responsibility to ensure that terrible things don't happen, and so on. And the argument had some validity. So, when the Germans were driven out of France, let's say, there were thousands, maybe tens of thousands of people killed by -- as collaborators, and in Asia, even more so. But is that an argument for them? No. It's none of their business.
We don't know what will happen, and it's not our decision to make. It's the decision of the victims to make, not our decision. Occupying armies have no right to make the decision. We could have an academic seminar about it, in which we could discuss the likely consequences. But the point is it's not for us to say. Well, until that enters into the discussion, and the critical issues of the war, like what right do we have to invade in the first place, enter into the discussion, the media and the journalism and so on are simply part of the government propaganda system, as I say, like a high school newspaper or like Pravda during the Afghanistan war.
JG: And what of the role of the American people in this process? Clearly, it seems to me that so much of the antiwar sentiments quickly gets channeled into one or another political candidates, rather than into continuing to build a mass movement that, regardless of the political folks in office, will move to extricate the United States from this invasion.
NC: Yeah, you're absolutely right. But that's our problem. I mean, you cannot expect power centers, whether in the government or in the economic system or in the media, which are all closely linked. I mean, they aren't going to try to stimulate popular movements that will be critical of power and try to erode power. In fact, their task is the opposite. So, yes, this has to be done by a popular movement. I mean, that's the way every constructive change has taken place in the past. I mean, how did we get civil rights to the extent that they exist, minority rights, women's rights, the benefits system that does exist, and so on? I mean, these things are not gifts from above; they are won from below. And it's going to be the same on this.
Here's the link to the entire article if anyone is interested. Chomsky is a hero of mine....I love what he has to say.
http://alternet.org/story/34600/
The same shit that is currently going on... Sectarian Violence (a.k.a. Civil War) between Shi'ites and Sunnis. Wasn't that the excuse du yesterjour for keeping our troops there... to prevent a Civil War? As for the Kurds... I can see them working out a deal with the Shi'ites to create their own seperate state... much to the dismay of Turkey.
The Shi'ites in charge have already begun to form 'Death Squads' to got out and extract vengence on the Sunnis for all of those years of oppression. and can you really blame them? The Sunnis in neighboring countries don't want another Iran in their midst. Muqtada al Sadr got his own loyalists and he has several seats in the Iraqi parliment. That's democracy at work and there ain't shit we can say about it because we're the ones who've installed it. These fuckers are gonna keep on fighting til that meteor slams into the Pacific and puts us all out of our misery.
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Now... what is YOUR vision of 'Winning The War' and what does Iraq have to look like before we can leave? And please, consider the facts on the ground over there... the culture, history, religion, customs, etc... and avoid the improbable peaches and cream outcome we tend to see through American eyes.
Hail, Hail!!!
The war is a farce. What are they at? 300,000 dead Iraqi's now? We gonna stop at a million?
Bush is a fucker....fucking up the world....
fight or blow...this lagging around crap is just one long evil deception.
Like a guy who hangs over a dying body placing his hand over the guys mouth to suffocate him when no one is looking so the guy will die faster....then he can be the first to steal his wallet and jewellry.
f-in sadistic