NT

Collin wrote:

My good friend 69charger asked some very interesting questions in another thread.

So homosexuality is a sin and an abomination obviously (see the word of god at Lev 18:22) but there are still a few matters which 69charger isn't sure how to deal with, and now that I have read his questions... I can't say I know the answers myself.

Because when you actually study the bible, you find that the only laws that are valid today are the ones that Jesus outlined. Christians today use him as the model they are to follow. Jesus didn't kill, he didn't judge, he didn't own slaves, he didn't make sacrifices.....his presence on the earth and consequent murder set the standards for Christians today. The issues you cite were pre-Jesus. His teachings replaced all other practices.

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

I can appreciate that the church is sticking to its core teachings here, but I will say it loud and proud that those teachings are completely flawed if they discriminate like this.

And we'll just keep going to church! It doesn't matter what you think - morality doesn't change based on what you want. Discriminate is just another word for separate. We're separating ourselves from an immoral influence when we decide to reject behavior that is inconsistent with a moral outlook.

Juberoo wrote:

I don't believe the idea of a "trend" entered anywhere in my post. However CoroporateWhore put it nicely that "discriminate is just another word for separate".

Just as the liberals and conservatives separate when conveining on issues they believe in, when holding conventions or rallys, when having parties etc.

People of like mind stick together. This is esp. true of religion. Those who do seek a higher spiritual direction, group themseleves with others who think like them.

It never ceases to amaze me that those who cry "discrimination" and "intolerance" are the very ones who label and condemn those who don't think like they do. Pot calling the kettle black mentality.

Why should you care if this church or anyone else for that matter disapproves of homosexuality? Don't they have the right to an opinion, belief or stance?

Okay, just for the record, in the post I quoted last time you said...

Tolerance doesn't mean you have to accept every idea that comes along.

Every idea that comes along is what I interpreted as "trend". If that wasn't what you meant, fair enough.

I'd say, at this point in time, homosexuality is considered a natural part of the human condition. You don't choose your sexuality anymore than you choose the colour of your skin. To discriminate (or separate) on those grounds is wrong, in my opinion.

I have no problem with people adhering to their faith. It's the outdated "laws" of the faith that I take issue with. The lack of progressive ideas in the Catholic church is partially to blame for the backlash against it in recent years (y'know - along with the scandals), and stories like this don't exactly help their case.

Perhaps more hardcore believers like yourself and CorporateWhore will take this as being a demonstration of strong faith in the face of adversity. The rest of the world just sees it as pointless, offensive prejudice.

CorporateWhore wrote:

And we'll just keep going to church! It doesn't matter what you think - morality doesn't change based on what you want. Discriminate is just another word for separate. We're separating ourselves from an immoral influence when we decide to reject behavior that is inconsistent with a moral outlook.

Is this where you tell me that organised religion is responsible for morality in the world? Cos I don't buy that. Catholics can't tell me what's moral anymore than anyone else - your belief in a being whose existence is impossible to prove doesn't put you on a pedestal to enforce your beliefs on me.

As I said, I know this is just the church sticking to its core teachings. But the churches morals are as open to question as anyone else's, whether you like it or not, and I'd wager that the vast majority of people see this as a great example of where the church's morals are at best outdated, at worst, offensive.

CorporateWhore wrote:

BS. The church has only gotten more progressive through Vatican II. The Catholic Church is the only growing christian faith in the United States today. The others are declining.

I know there may be a backlash in Ireland, but that largely has to do with the socialist nature of government in that country. Government has taken the place of the church and in lieu of family and charity, government provides compassion to your needs.

I say, keep importing those Polish immigrants!! They're strongly Catholic and they deeply oppose gay marriage in Poland.

In lieu of family and charity? Ireland has consistently proven itself as, per capita, one of the larger contributors to global causes, with or without the Catholic church.

As for your "importing Polish immigrants" comment, if Poland is so perfectly Catholic, why are they leaving for socialist, atheist Ireland?

CorporateWhore wrote:

BS. The church has only gotten more progressive through Vatican II. The Catholic Church is the only growing christian faith in the United States today. The others are declining.

I know there may be a backlash in Ireland, but that largely has to do with the socialist nature of government in that country. Government has taken the place of the church and in lieu of family and charity, government provides compassion to your needs.

I say, keep importing those Polish immigrants!! They're strongly Catholic and they deeply oppose gay marriage in Poland.

Ummmm.....CW, you are so off base on this I can't even believe it.

The Catholic Church is faltering. Many other religions are gaining momentum...and the blunderings of Catholicism are not hindering this endeavor. I'm sorry to tell you this, but your faith is on the way out. If you are truly a religious person, you know very well the bible speaks of true religion being identified by "it's works". Unfortunately for you, the Catholic Church is not looking too positive these days. It's "works" are pretty heinous.

CorporateWhore wrote:

A. The Catholic Church gave over 110% of its revenues for charitable causes last year. That means it gave 10% more than it took in.

B. They're coming to turn you back because you've lost your way, laddy!

A. Good. I'm all for charity. I still don't see how that negatively affects the rest of the Irish people's donations.

B. Yes, because I've been accosted by dozens of Polish folk trying to turn me from my atheist ways in the last while. But hey, if they're such a danger to our policies, maybe we should build a wall to keep 'em immigrants out. That's the perfect American way, isn't it?

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

A. Good. I'm all for charity. I still don't see how that negatively affects the rest of the Irish people's donations.

B. Yes, because I've been accosted by dozens of Polish folk trying to turn me from my atheist ways in the last while. But hey, if they're such a danger to our policies, maybe we should build a wall to keep 'em immigrants out. That's the perfect American way, isn't it?

Nah you need the immigrants because your birthrate is pathetic. And I thought the Irish had lots of kids. Maybe that was before they aborted them all.

Irish birthrate:

14.4 per 1000 population

That's below sustaining levels, friend.

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Wonderful - I have no problem with immigrants. They're very welcome to come to Ireland. I don't see what that has to do with the church's stance on homosexuality being outdated though.

Polish people are immigrants to Ireland.

Polish people are Catholic.

Catholics oppose homosexuality.

Homosexuality is outdated.

CorporateWhore wrote:

Budget: Revenues (2005) $247 million; expenditures (2005) $243 million

The Catholic Church is the biggest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States#The_American_Religious_Identification_Survey

Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hell will not overcome it.

The one true church, amen!

Accounting records can be altered.

Furthermore, Jesus never called the church "Catholicism." Quite frankly, name ONE thing that the Catholic Church does in immitation of Christs example and teachings.