Nicolas Sarkozy plans to bypass Irish no vote

Heineken Helen wrote:

Nobody said if I didn't vote I'd have no dinner for a week

So nope, I wasn't. Me personally, I was not forced into either decision... unlike at LEAST some of the governments of the 26 other countries.

i never said you personally... you said your COUNTRY wasnt forced into anything, but it was, it was forced to have a referendum.

dunkman wrote:

i never said you personally... you said your COUNTRY wasnt forced into anything, but it was, it was forced to have a referendum.

Technically, she said she wasn't forced into either decision.

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Taking something two countries rejected, rewording it so their governments can ratify it even thought it's basically the same document...? Sounds pretty shady to me.

Why shady???

It was done in discussion with all member states and negotiations.

You need to consider the wishes and interests of those who approved it too.

Politics is the art of what's possible - through mediation, compromise, negotiation, for the greater good of the majority.

lgt wrote:

is it then democratic for a small percentage of the EU population [the Irish who voted NO] to block any further integration of the other 26 member states?

The Irish people decided they do not want further integration, for whatever reasons. They want things as they are.

But this cannot be. You have more member states and archaic decision-making procedures [the veto power].

Furthermore, within the Lisbon Treaty there was a provision to increase the powers of the EU parliament [this is where each EU citizen can get their voice heard by casting their vote for their party of choice in the EU elections] as well as a EU citizen charter, which also gave powers to citizen directly to ask the Commission to divise a law/directive.

So much then for democracy then.

Of course it was democratic... surely a constitution would have to be ratified by EVERY 'country' (not state).

Why can't it be? It works fine! If we voted yes, we would no longer get to choose and our government would be bullied by France and Germany to make the choices for us... my main problem was voting to have our vote removed :mad:

Hmm... so you mean... we, a population of 4 million will be voting alongside countries with populations of 80 million... and countries that are the other side of the continent... on who's going to govern US? :eek: And that citizens initiative was a pile of crap by the way... a million signatories can INVITE the parliament to consider a proposal? Surely we can do that as it is. If I had a million signatures, I could send it to europe and I'm sure they'd consider whether to look at it or not... I highly doubt there's anything in the laws as they are to prevent them.

lgt wrote:

Politics is the art of what's possible - through mediation, compromise, negotiation, for the greater good of the majority.

:eek: NO! That's what politics SHOULD be... and it so often proves NOT to be.

Specifics wrote:

did you just pluck that figure out of the air? i dont see how 1 government can govrn 60 milliion. what has my emotional state got to do with anything? you seem like an ass kissing geek anyway...but thats just me

no it's the german population.
he who talks loud saying nothing (does that make sense to you?)

m.

nobody wrote:

no it's the german population.
he who talks loud saying nothing (does that make sense to you?)

m.

election manifesto

Heineken Helen wrote:

Of course it was democratic... surely a constitution would have to be ratified by EVERY 'country' (not state).

The Lisbon Treaty stated that it was to be ratified by all member states.

18 said yes. 1 said no. We'll see what the others will choose. If you have a situation whereby 26 have said yes, we want these changes, why shouldn't they?

Of course, it won't be the Lisbon Treaty, but it will be called something else.

But if there is a will, there will be a way.

Nothing will happen to Ireland - it will remain as it is, but it will be excluded from further changes / integration unless it chooses to be a part of it [and because of your constitutional arrangements it will have to be done by a popular referendum.]

Not sure why you excluded states. States are the political entity of a nation.

Heineken Helen wrote:

Why can't it be? It works fine! If we voted yes, we would no longer get to choose and our government would be bullied by France and Germany to make the choices for us... my main problem was voting to have our vote removed :mad:

because decision-making becomes impossible with one country- whichever country - imposing a veto. surely, a decision by majority is democratic right?

Ireland will still have a vote.

It will be qualified majority voting, not veto. This is what happens in any parliamentary democracy.

Heineken Helen wrote:

Hmm... so you mean... we, a population of 4 million will be voting alongside countries with populations of 80 million... and countries that are the other side of the continent... on who's going to govern US? :eek: And that citizens initiative was a pile of crap by the way... a million signatories can INVITE the parliament to consider a proposal? Surely we can do that as it is. If I had a million signatures, I could send it to europe and I'm sure they'd consider whether to look at it or not... I highly doubt there's anything in the laws as they are to prevent them.

The Irish people would still be governed by the government they elect as well as in other supra-national matters by EU directives [these are put forward by the Commission, upon invitation by the parliament and the council - all expression of national self-interest]

The initiative was to invite the Commission to promote a law in certain areas. I will need to dig the details on how many signatures needed etc.

nobody wrote:

well, if you're not going to believe anything "they" are saying why bother anyways. they could bring millions of treaties and you would still think it's shady and full of backdoors, cause "they" are just out to fool you...
best solution: leave the eu...

and by the way: Ireland would have more voting power than it had previously...evil countries like germany and france would have less...

m.

Yeh yeh, people keep pointing that out to us. I never said we as a country would have less power... my problem has ALWAYS been that the power will be even LESS in the hands of the people... citizens initiative my arse... that's all we'd be left with.

BTW, do you know Ireland always comes up close to tops in polls as to satisfaction rating regarding the EU. We love the EU, nobody wants to leave... but we certainly don't wanna join the USE... who said Germany lost the war eh? (and I'm sorry if you take offense at that... but you have to see we're coming from 2 different sides here... why do you think Germans seem to be PRO treaty?)

nobody wrote:

no no no...it's far from chosen...
and it's standing EU law that can't be changed so easily...as is the number of seats for each country in the (at the moment powerless) parliament...

again: i don't see a dictatorship here...people will continue to elect the government...how is this a dictatorship...it has been like this for decades...there has never been a time when referendums were used to make policy
in germany the US, britain and france ratified the constitution (worked out by german politicians under ally supervision), no referendum whatsoever...

m.

Oh that's fine... we ratified our own constitution under no supervision after we finally kicked the brits out

the irony is now they have a great opportunity to stand up for us... and they won't.