Silver & GOLD:Rare Coins vs. Bullion - The Patriot Act and Investing In Gold- Do You?
Comments
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jlew24asu wrote:
I looked at this site. It does not go into great detail about why gold is valuable other than that is rare. Gold in itself, like paper money, is only as valuable as people make it. If paper money can lose value, so can gold (as it does in the markets). All I'm saying is that I want to know one reason as to why gold is important to the human race other than being rare. You all could be right that gold is the way to go, but the reason for its value being high because it is "rare" seems silly to me.
If one person in the world had all the gold in the world, would all then be poor? Would we all be out of jobs? Would health care cease to exist? Would we all starve? The answer is no. So, gold is not that important in the large scheme of things, which is strange to me why some people put so much value with it.0 -
I do not believe in Silver or Gold and wouldn't invest in them for any reason.The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.0 -
Gold is a rare and already coveted commodity for it's artistic value alone ... yes that makes it valuable ... blame girls ... they LOVE it ... go ask a few if they would wear some gold if you bought it for them ...
BESIDES JEWLERY,
GOLD HAS A LOT OF HIGH TECH USES
This makes it valuable.
The reason gold was always popular as a currency was because it had a high value to weight ratio ... like has been said by others in books, it could have been steel, but just imagine trying to pay for a washingmachine with steel .... you would need a TON of it.
Yeah a loaf of bread will keep you alive and gold won't, but bread goes STALE, gold doesnt. Thus people will ALWAYS look to gold as a safe STABLE medium of exchange.
And if you really think gold has no intrinsic value above that of PAPER, you are a fOOL. Go look at that list of VERY REAL USES FOR GOLD ... tell me what the fuck you are going to build with a printed piece of paper, mcgyver.
jesus.
You people who don't "believe" in gold are thinking so hard in a contrarian sense that you are blind to the obvious.
If the american economy TOOK OFF, yes, gold could go down in value. But it won't go down to less than around $300 an ounce, ever, i doubt.
The new reality is that there are so many pressures on our economy that i doubt we will ever see gold go down back past $600 (at least not in the next 5-10yrs) but it VERY likely could go up to 1000 or even 2000 an ounce.
Unfortunately, if gold gets up past, i'm guessing, $1200, that will be an indicator that we are really fucked.
start beliveing, people.If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?0 -
bootlegger10 wrote:
1. We will be invading Iran soon. I would bet on it. Russia is supporting Iran to hurt us. A large war (larger than Iraq) could drive down our economy and the value of our securities and the value of the dollar. Which is what we are talking about here right? Investing in gold so that we don't lose it all with our investments in cash and securities? I thought that was obvious, but cause and effect are lost on some.
2. That is why I said that Iraq did not have a legit army. I also said that it is terrorists (Al Qaeda) and insurgents (Iraqi's and Iranians) who we are fighting now. Did you read my post? So, when we are talking Iran and Russia, those wars would make the war in Iraq seem like a small skirmish. You are blind if you do not see Russia positioning itself. We are not friends. KGB is back.
3. Well, a war with Russia or China would last forever without nukes. We'll have to go to war with Iran to stop their production of nuclear weapons.
4. I am wondering if you are high with this comment. We are talking about the value of gold. Who is to say that gold will always keep its value? There are reasons that investments in stocks could decrease: recession, wars, huge disasters. So, nuclear war would change the world and there is a lot of unknown surrounding the financial outcome. So, this thread is saying we should invest in gold. So, I was saying after a nuclear war maybe gold would not keep its value and investment in it now would be futile. Why was this so hard for you to understand?
And speaking as a Republican who hates conspiracists, war with Iran is coming soon (as will the draft).
I don't know what to tell you. we will most likely never go to war with china or russia. never. why would we? and Iran, I think its a longshot. as long as they are cooperating with the IAEA, we won't strike first.
and I don't know why you need such a indepth analysis on why gold is valuable. chicks dig it. its shiney. I like it coated on my toilet bowl. it was once used as a standard to back money. as soon as the dollar becomes stronger (and I believe in will in 2-3 years) the price of gold with come down.
and who the fuck knows what will happen to prices of anything if nuclear war happens. the price of gold will be the least of my concerns.0 -
DriftingByTheStorm wrote:??? can ANYONE give me any links explaining why gold will suddenly just tank in value ???
if the market crashes, who's gonna afford to buy it from you? you going to call moscow and ask to speak to putin and see if he wants a few of your bars, which would be peanuts to him? if the economy tanks and everyone is laid off, you going to be able to eat that gold?
i think y'all are acting like chicken little. this is why i don't play the stock market. it is no different from taking your money to vegas and hoping you pick a winner aside from the fact that it allows people to pretend they're not gambling by saying "well i read wall street journal and studied economics so it's not the same." yeah, well i watched sportscenter and was raised on ohio football, so my success rate would be just as big as yours.0 -
DriftingByTheStorm wrote:And if you really think gold has no intrinsic value above that of PAPER, you are a fOOL. Go look at that list of VERY REAL USES FOR GOLD ... tell me what the fuck you are going to build with a printed piece of paper, mcgyver.
i can build a pretty cool swan. my friend can make a funny looking little dress shirt. and my brother's wife once made a prom dress out of starburst wrappers, so i'm sure she could do the same with the dollar.
you need to relax man. breathe in, breathe out. you're going to be ok man. we're going to be ok. the world is going to make it. need a hug?0 -
i don't need a fucking hug.
some of ya'll are acting obtuse and financialy daft.
if the market crashes,
everyone will still have to engage in some medium of exchange.
if you truly believe there will be no wealth left to exchange, period, you are living in some weird vision of the world.
people will need to buy and sell goods, just like before the world went to shit.
paper money has NO intrinsic value.
It is a "promise to pay", a "note" ... a debt paper.
Except, backed by and tradeable for nothing, it IS NOTHING. It only holds value in so much as the market gives it value. If the market crashes, there will be NO VALUE.
gold has VALUE.
girls like it, industries need it.
In the even of a catastrophe it will be one of a few things that people with any brains turn to as a recognized form of exchange that is truly global in its appeal.
that's all you need to know.
how can you not see that?If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?0 -
DriftingByTheStorm wrote:gold has VALUE.
girls like it, industries need it.
In the even of a catastrophe it will be one of a few things that people with any brains turn to as a recognized form of exchange that is truly global in its appeal.
that's all you need to know.
how can you not see that?
I see your point, but I disagree. Time and technology and other important commodities have passed Gold by.The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.0 -
know1 wrote:I see your point, but I disagree. Time and technology and other important commodities have passed Gold by.
OK.
answer this then:
if & when the dollar goes to hell, WHAT will become the ad hoc standard for trade?
We are NOT talking about a NEW paper currency.
If paper currency fails, WHAT will take it's place.
I'm hearing "time and technology have made gold obsolete" uttered in the same sentence as "why would they want gold and not bread" ... so what the fuck is it ... are we gonna trade eachother semiconductors for necessities or bread ...
???
WHAT GREAT NEW TECHNOLOGY HAS ENOUGH VALUE BY WEIGHT TO TRADE FOR LARGER ITEMS WITHOUT BEING CUMBERSOME ITSELF?
I want to buy 5 cows, a dozen chickens, 40lbs of rice, a remmington, two electric generators, and 80 gallons of diesel ... WHAT SUPER-TECHNOLOGY AM I TRADING FOR IT?
An iphone? Are iphones the new gold? All that for just 15 i phones?
???If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?0 -
dude you are falling further and further off the reservation. paper money, namely the american dollar, isnt going anywhere.DriftingByTheStorm wrote:OK.
answer this then:
if & when the dollar goes to hell, WHAT will become the ad hoc standard for trade?
We are NOT talking about a NEW paper currency.
If paper currency fails, WHAT will take it's place.
I'm hearing "time and technology have made gold obsolete" uttered in the same sentence as "why would they want gold and not bread" ... so what the fuck is it ... are we gonna trade eachother semiconductors for necessities or bread ...
???
WHAT GREAT NEW TECHNOLOGY HAS ENOUGH VALUE BY WEIGHT TO TRADE FOR LARGER ITEMS WITHOUT BEING CUMBERSOME ITSELF?
I want to buy 5 cows, a dozen chickens, 40lbs of rice, a remmington, two electric generators, and 80 gallons of diesel ... WHAT SUPER-TECHNOLOGY AM I TRADING FOR IT?
An iphone? Are iphones the new gold? All that for just 15 i phones?
???0 -
DriftingByTheStorm wrote:OK.
answer this then:
if & when the dollar goes to hell, WHAT will become the ad hoc standard for trade?
We are NOT talking about a NEW paper currency.
If paper currency fails, WHAT will take it's place.
I'm hearing "time and technology have made gold obsolete" uttered in the same sentence as "why would they want gold and not bread" ... so what the fuck is it ... are we gonna trade eachother semiconductors for necessities or bread ...
???
WHAT GREAT NEW TECHNOLOGY HAS ENOUGH VALUE BY WEIGHT TO TRADE FOR LARGER ITEMS WITHOUT BEING CUMBERSOME ITSELF?
I want to buy 5 cows, a dozen chickens, 40lbs of rice, a remmington, two electric generators, and 80 gallons of diesel ... WHAT SUPER-TECHNOLOGY AM I TRADING FOR IT?
An iphone? Are iphones the new gold? All that for just 15 i phones?
???
euros.
paper money isn't going anywhere. you'll just need more of it. the great depression didn't destroy the world and neither will whatever it is you're fearing.
are you seriously trying to tell me that when this apocalyptic market crash occurs you're going to try going into the grocery store, load up your cart, and then offer to pay with a sliver of gold? seriously? that's what you're saying?0 -
Damnit, Jlew, we are talking about IFs and WHENs here.jlew24asu wrote:dude you are falling further and further off the reservation. paper money, namely the american dollar, isnt going anywhere.
This is a theoretical debate, i thought.
The guy is saying gold has been superceded by some new technology.
I just want an answer.
IF and WHEN the bottom ever falls out,
WHAT will we trade with, for large transactions like i listed above, WHAT will suffice to trade with that won't spoil or be cumbersome to get to market with. And what will have NEAR UNIVERSAL appeal.
If you claim gold is obsolete,
WHAT is the new gold?
Huh?
And Jlew,
i think you have already admitted that the economic outlook in the near to mid term is by no means bright.
So i paint my picture in darker shades of gray than you, so what of it?
I don't mean we will all be out in the streets tomorrow,
but i think it is insane to lie on the couch and bury your head in the latest copy of People magazine and think tomorrow will be just as bright as today.
The light of American economics is on the fritz.
Unlesss someone figures out how to service the fucker quick, we could all be in the dark. If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?0 -
DriftingByTheStorm wrote:Damnit, Jlew, we are talking about IFs and WHENs here.
This is a theoretical debate, i thought.
The guy is saying gold has been superceded by some new technology.
I just want an answer.
IF and WHEN the bottom ever falls out,
WHAT will we trade with, for large transactions like i listed above, WHAT will suffice to trade with that won't spoil or be cumbersome to get to market with. And what will have NEAR UNIVERSAL appeal.
If you claim gold is obsolete,
WHAT is the new gold?
Huh?
And Jlew,
i think you have already admitted that the economic outlook in the near to mid term is by no means bright.
So i paint my picture in darker shades of gray than you, so what of it?
I don't mean we will all be out in the streets tomorrow,
but i think it is insane to lie on the couch and bury your head in the latest copy of People magazine and think tomorrow will be just as bright as today.
The light of American economics is on the fritz.
Unlesss someone figures out how to service the fucker quick, we could all be in the dark.
i'm saying the days of barter are over. economies are too complex and most people don't produce or receive goods for services. IF paper money fails... you think people will be trading gold nuggets and collecting sacks of gold after a few weeks at the office? mcdonald's wages will be paid in gold?
paper money is symbolic and flexible and integral to modern economies. most work is office or service work. you cannot pay that in hard goods like gold. it's not like when most people farmed and could say "i'll trade you my potatoes for your gold." and it will never be that way again. you work and receive and income value on your work which is accepted by all retailers who pay their workers on the same system.
this is why i think the stock market is bogus... this market you are so beholden to and stressed by is no more real than paper money. what do you own? a "piece" of a company? it's as imaginary and valueless as the money you're so worried about.0 -
soulsinging wrote:euros.
paper money isn't going anywhere. you'll just need more of it. the great depression didn't destroy the world and neither will whatever it is you're fearing.
are you seriously trying to tell me that when this apocalyptic market crash occurs you're going to try going into the grocery store, load up your cart, and then offer to pay with a sliver of gold? seriously? that's what you're saying?
In the situations we were discussing, namely grave and catastrophic market failure (and if you people think that is beyond occuring, you may want to wake up. there is SOOOOOOOOoooooooooo much bad debt out there. SOMEONE has to cover it. If they can't figure out how to move this shell game around without the public and the market catching on, SOMEONE is gonna take a HUGE fall!)
...
...anyhow ... in a catastrophic failure of the market ... if the banks go insolvent and the government has to print billions or even tRILLIONS more to meet the needs of the banks, your dollar will PLUNGE in value.
Look, in a functioning market, NO, you can't go in to a store with gold ... because the government has effectively limited your ability to trade gold as a currency, but uncoupling it from the dollar, and causing its value to fluctuate and thus people don't feel capable of understanding it, and are unsure that it will be worth tomorrow what it was worth today ...
IN A MARKET COLLAPSE ALL THAT IS OUT THE WINDOW.
The DOLLAR IS WORTHLESS, that is a starting assumption.
How do you no see that?
You want to argue they will only accept dollars, but dollars will be worth pennies if inflation turns to hyper inflation.
if you still want to argue that silliness, how bout this.
If the grocerystores are really still only accepting cash (why in gods name would they do this? beats me. but people can be sheep) ... assuming you are correct, there would still be a link between gold and paper currency. My gold would be worth 3 or 4 times what it is worth now, and your dollars would be worth shit.
I could just trudge right on down to ANY pawn shop, exchange, or likely a financial institution. and they would GLADLY TAKE MY GOLD!
They would be like "oh here Mr. Idiot. Take as many dollars as you want. Here is $3000 an ounce. Please give me your gold!"
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?0 -
the american economy, more specifically the stock market, has been booming in the past few years. (Dow over 14,000!!!! never thought it would happen that fast) its only healthy for it to come back down. thats what I'm saying when I admit "things aren't too bright"
and yes the dollar is weak. probably too weak for my liking, but that will reverse too. more and more I'm seeing that the war spending, and peoples opinion of america is getting killed by bush. I also suspect people around the world are secretly boycotting us. just a hunch.
the bush tax cuts have helped the economy grow but he has overwhelming hurt our image around the world.
and guess what, he only has a year left. thats why I think things will be much much better in 1-3 years.......0 -
DriftingByTheStorm wrote:In the situations we were discussing, namely grave and catastrophic market failure (and if you people think that is beyond occuring, you may want to wake up. there is SOOOOOOOOoooooooooo much bad debt out there. SOMEONE has to cover it. If they can't figure out how to move this shell game around without the public and the market catching on, SOMEONE is gonna take a HUGE fall!)
...
...anyhow ... in a catastrophic failure of the market ... if the banks go insolvent and the government has to print billions or even tRILLIONS more to meet the needs of the banks, your dollar will PLUNGE in value.
Look, in a functioning market, NO, you can't go in to a store with gold ... because the government has effectively limited your ability to trade gold as a currency, but uncoupling it from the dollar, and causing its value to fluctuate and thus people don't feel capable of understanding it, and are unsure that it will be worth tomorrow what it was worth today ...
IN A MARKET COLLAPSE ALL THAT IS OUT THE WINDOW.
The DOLLAR IS WORTHLESS, that is a starting assumption.
How do you no see that?
You want to argue they will only accept dollars, but dollars will be worth pennies if inflation turns to hyper inflation.
if you still want to argue that silliness, how bout this.
If the grocerystores are really still only accepting cash (why in gods name would they do this? beats me. but people can be sheep) ... assuming you are correct, there would still be a link between gold and paper currency. My gold would be worth 3 or 4 times what it is worth now, and your dollars would be worth shit.
I could just trudge right on down to ANY pawn shop, exchange, or likely a financial institution. and they would GLADLY TAKE MY GOLD!
They would be like "oh here Mr. Idiot. Take as many dollars as you want. Here is $3000 an ounce. Please give me your gold!"
but you're still using paper money.0 -
soulsinging wrote:i'm saying the days of barter are over. economies are too complex and most people don't produce or receive goods for services. IF paper money fails... you think people will be trading gold nuggets and collecting sacks of gold after a few weeks at the office? mcdonald's wages will be paid in gold?
paper money is symbolic and flexible and integral to modern economies. most work is office or service work. you cannot pay that in hard goods like gold. it's not like when most people farmed and could say "i'll trade you my potatoes for your gold." and it will never be that way again. you work and receive and income value on your work which is accepted by all retailers who pay their workers on the same system.
this is why i think the stock market is bogus... this market you are so beholden to and stressed by is no more real than paper money. what do you own? a "piece" of a company? it's as imaginary and valueless as the money you're so worried about.
Dude.
Don't take this the wrong way.
I hear you.
Your though process resembles mine circa my EARLY 20s.
Stock has value because in REALITY, not in THEORY, you own a piece of the company. If you bought 50% of the shares, the company would be on your books, AS IF YOU WERE THE OWNER.
You would CONTROL that company.
That is why voting shares cary value.
You are correct, for the common man, stock is a bit of a sham. But the original concept behind stock was nothing more than a CAPITAL RAISING MEAUSURE that offered the buyer control of the company (or at least a promise of some dividends) in exchange for giving the company much needed WORKING CAPITAL.
I give you a vote, you give me money to run the company.
Of course, that is today only an IPO ... which the common man is excluded from (because he is apparently to stupid to be trusted with such a "risky" investment) ...
the secondary market is goofy. but it is real.
???
I still think you miss the point.
If PAPER MONEY plunges in value (and if you don't understand that it can, and HAS happened before, both in US history and plenty of times in world history) then i can't even continue the conversation.
You are missing the boat completely.
Paper money can go down in value.
If it does, gold WILL go up in value.
IT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.
Gold was $300 an ounce in 2001.
It's $750 right now.
THAT IS REAL.
THAT IS REAL.
THAT IS REAL.If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?0 -
DriftingByTheStorm wrote:Dude.
Don't take this the wrong way.
I hear you.
Your though process resembles mine circa my EARLY 20s.
Stock has value because in REALITY, not in THEORY, you own a piece of the company. If you bought 50% of the shares, the company would be on your books, AS IF YOU WERE THE OWNER.
You would CONTROL that company.
That is why voting shares cary value.
You are correct, for the common man, stock is a bit of a sham. But the original concept behind stock was nothing more than a CAPITAL RAISING MEAUSURE that offered the buyer control of the company (or at least a promise of some dividends) in exchange for giving the company much needed WORKING CAPITAL.
I give you a vote, you give me money to run the company.
Of course, that is today only an IPO ... which the common man is excluded from (because he is apparently to stupid to be trusted with such a "risky" investment) ...
the secondary market is goofy. but it is real.
???
I still think you miss the point.
If PAPER MONEY plunges in value (and if you don't understand that it can, and HAS happened before, both in US history and plenty of times in world history) then i can't even continue the conversation.
You are missing the boat completely.
Paper money can go down in value.
If it does, gold WILL go up in value.
IT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.
Gold was $300 an ounce in 2001.
It's $750 right now.
THAT IS REAL.
THAT IS REAL.
THAT IS REAL.
but that gold is still only worth trading for money. it's still a paper money economy. you cannot trade gold for rent, groceries, or gas. you can only get paper money for it. you would get more money for it maybe, but is that becos gold is more valuable or becos the dollar is less valuable. all you're doing is hedging your savings essentially.
as to the stock market, it is ridiculous for you to say paper money is worthless and owning stock is not. they are both simply abstract concepts and symbols. if you have $1000, it is worth nothing more than what you can trade it for. if you own $1000 in stock, it is still worth nothing more than what you can trade it for.0 -
soulsinging wrote:but that gold is still only worth trading for money. it's still a paper money economy. you cannot trade gold for rent, groceries, or gas. you can only get paper money for it. you would get more money for it maybe, but is that becos gold is more valuable or becos the dollar is less valuable. all you're doing is hedging your savings essentially.
as to the stock market, it is ridiculous for you to say paper money is worthless and owning stock is not. they are both simply abstract concepts and symbols. if you have $1000, it is worth nothing more than what you can trade it for. if you own $1000 in stock, it is still worth nothing more than what you can trade it for.
like i said, the reality is, when a company goes public they sell "shares" of OWNERSHIP in the company for the fractional amount they think accounts for the total value of the company. You buy whichever fraction you so choose.
It is abstract when it hits the secondary market in that you are bidding on a relative value of a companies worth. But it isn't fake. You are buying ownership of a company.
Fiat money is intrinsicaly worthless. The stock entitles you to shares of a company. The dollars in your pocket is worth ONLY what someone will take it off of you for. is willing to EXCHANGE it for.
If that relation ship goes south, if the merchant no longer has any faith that the dollar you are giving him will buy him a loaf of bread ... if inflation runs rampant and it takes $500 to buy a loaf of bread ... then that merchant is not going to want your dollars ... you probably won't have enough to give him to get what you want anyhow ...
... but he will, IN THAT EVENT, probably take your damn gold.
The fact that you cant see that the relative valuation of golds intrinsic worth as related to the dollar is something REAL is beyond my comprehension.
Gold has REAL value. It does things. You can make shit out of it. Lots of things these days. More than in the ancient times. That should make it even MORE valuable.
The fact that gold would go up in "price" is ONLY a measure of the fact that the dollar is GOING DOWN in value.
The "real" "value" of gold is CONSTANT ...
The fact that i have to come on here and talk to you about that value in terms of US Dollars is ONLY an indication that the average person likes to THINK IN DOLLARS.
YOU CAN TRADE GOLD FOR SERVICES. YOU CAN TRADE GOLD FOR GOODS.
You can trade anything for anything you want. The fact that you seem to think noone will take gold is representative ONLY of the fact that the average person has so long been disassociate with gold that they are confused by it ... just as you VERY CLEARLY seem to be.
I sure as hell bet i could find SOMEONE to trade gold to in less than a day.
Some libertarian farmer, some pawn shop owner who "gets it" ... if "most" people won't touch it, it is only because they don't need to in a "functioning" economy with good paper dollars ... hell there is a DISINSENTIVE to trade with gold. Because thanks to Uncle Fuck You In The Ass Sam, you have to convert the gold back to dollars to pay tax on any such transaction.
That was part of the plan in 1913.
The same plan they had in 32 when they confiscated ALL THE GOLD OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.
It wasn't because gold had no value.
It was because ONLY gold had value.
The big bankers couldn't count on uncle sam to have any restraint in "borrowing" dollars from the Fed in the midst of the depression.
They were afraid that Uncle Sam and all his spending would make THEIR big banker dollars worthless.
SO what did they do?
They told FDR he needed to go get EVEYRONES GOLD!
Steal the gold of the people, pay them nominal value for it.
THEN? Did they destroy the gold because it was obsolete?
FUCK NO. THEY KEPT IT IN EXCHANGE FOR LENDING THE GOVERNMENT WORTHELSS PAPER.
They didn't trust Uncle Sam or his Treasury Bills, so they said "fuck you. get us some fucking gold or we are going to let your country sink to the bottom."
That is how valuable and constant gold is.
it is ALL the bankers want at the end of the day if there is trouble.
It is why gold went up 20%+ in the last few months.If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?0
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