I looked at this site. It does not go into great detail about why gold is valuable other than that is rare. Gold in itself, like paper money, is only as valuable as people make it. If paper money can lose value, so can gold (as it does in the markets). All I'm saying is that I want to know one reason as to why gold is important to the human race other than being rare. You all could be right that gold is the way to go, but the reason for its value being high because it is "rare" seems silly to me.
If one person in the world had all the gold in the world, would all then be poor? Would we all be out of jobs? Would health care cease to exist? Would we all starve? The answer is no. So, gold is not that important in the large scheme of things, which is strange to me why some people put so much value with it.
Gold is a rare and already coveted commodity for it's artistic value alone ... yes that makes it valuable ... blame girls ... they LOVE it ... go ask a few if they would wear some gold if you bought it for them ...
The reason gold was always popular as a currency was because it had a high value to weight ratio ... like has been said by others in books, it could have been steel, but just imagine trying to pay for a washingmachine with steel .... you would need a TON of it.
Yeah a loaf of bread will keep you alive and gold won't, but bread goes STALE, gold doesnt. Thus people will ALWAYS look to gold as a safe STABLE medium of exchange.
And if you really think gold has no intrinsic value above that of PAPER, you are a fOOL. Go look at that list of VERY REAL USES FOR GOLD ... tell me what the fuck you are going to build with a printed piece of paper, mcgyver.
jesus.
You people who don't "believe" in gold are thinking so hard in a contrarian sense that you are blind to the obvious.
If the american economy TOOK OFF, yes, gold could go down in value. But it won't go down to less than around $300 an ounce, ever, i doubt.
The new reality is that there are so many pressures on our economy that i doubt we will ever see gold go down back past $600 (at least not in the next 5-10yrs) but it VERY likely could go up to 1000 or even 2000 an ounce.
Unfortunately, if gold gets up past, i'm guessing, $1200, that will be an indicator that we are really fucked.
start beliveing, people.
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
1. We will be invading Iran soon. I would bet on it. Russia is supporting Iran to hurt us. A large war (larger than Iraq) could drive down our economy and the value of our securities and the value of the dollar. Which is what we are talking about here right? Investing in gold so that we don't lose it all with our investments in cash and securities? I thought that was obvious, but cause and effect are lost on some.
2. That is why I said that Iraq did not have a legit army. I also said that it is terrorists (Al Qaeda) and insurgents (Iraqi's and Iranians) who we are fighting now. Did you read my post? So, when we are talking Iran and Russia, those wars would make the war in Iraq seem like a small skirmish. You are blind if you do not see Russia positioning itself. We are not friends. KGB is back.
3. Well, a war with Russia or China would last forever without nukes. We'll have to go to war with Iran to stop their production of nuclear weapons.
4. I am wondering if you are high with this comment. We are talking about the value of gold. Who is to say that gold will always keep its value? There are reasons that investments in stocks could decrease: recession, wars, huge disasters. So, nuclear war would change the world and there is a lot of unknown surrounding the financial outcome. So, this thread is saying we should invest in gold. So, I was saying after a nuclear war maybe gold would not keep its value and investment in it now would be futile. Why was this so hard for you to understand?
And speaking as a Republican who hates conspiracists, war with Iran is coming soon (as will the draft).
I don't know what to tell you. we will most likely never go to war with china or russia. never. why would we? and Iran, I think its a longshot. as long as they are cooperating with the IAEA, we won't strike first.
and I don't know why you need such a indepth analysis on why gold is valuable. chicks dig it. its shiney. I like it coated on my toilet bowl. it was once used as a standard to back money. as soon as the dollar becomes stronger (and I believe in will in 2-3 years) the price of gold with come down.
and who the fuck knows what will happen to prices of anything if nuclear war happens. the price of gold will be the least of my concerns.
??? can ANYONE give me any links explaining why gold will suddenly just tank in value ???
if the market crashes, who's gonna afford to buy it from you? you going to call moscow and ask to speak to putin and see if he wants a few of your bars, which would be peanuts to him? if the economy tanks and everyone is laid off, you going to be able to eat that gold?
i think y'all are acting like chicken little. this is why i don't play the stock market. it is no different from taking your money to vegas and hoping you pick a winner aside from the fact that it allows people to pretend they're not gambling by saying "well i read wall street journal and studied economics so it's not the same." yeah, well i watched sportscenter and was raised on ohio football, so my success rate would be just as big as yours.
And if you really think gold has no intrinsic value above that of PAPER, you are a fOOL. Go look at that list of VERY REAL USES FOR GOLD ... tell me what the fuck you are going to build with a printed piece of paper, mcgyver.
i can build a pretty cool swan. my friend can make a funny looking little dress shirt. and my brother's wife once made a prom dress out of starburst wrappers, so i'm sure she could do the same with the dollar.
you need to relax man. breathe in, breathe out. you're going to be ok man. we're going to be ok. the world is going to make it. need a hug?
i don't need a fucking hug.
some of ya'll are acting obtuse and financialy daft.
if the market crashes,
everyone will still have to engage in some medium of exchange.
if you truly believe there will be no wealth left to exchange, period, you are living in some weird vision of the world.
people will need to buy and sell goods, just like before the world went to shit.
paper money has NO intrinsic value.
It is a "promise to pay", a "note" ... a debt paper.
Except, backed by and tradeable for nothing, it IS NOTHING. It only holds value in so much as the market gives it value. If the market crashes, there will be NO VALUE.
gold has VALUE.
girls like it, industries need it.
In the even of a catastrophe it will be one of a few things that people with any brains turn to as a recognized form of exchange that is truly global in its appeal.
that's all you need to know.
how can you not see that?
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
gold has VALUE.
girls like it, industries need it.
In the even of a catastrophe it will be one of a few things that people with any brains turn to as a recognized form of exchange that is truly global in its appeal.
that's all you need to know.
how can you not see that?
I see your point, but I disagree. Time and technology and other important commodities have passed Gold by.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I see your point, but I disagree. Time and technology and other important commodities have passed Gold by.
OK.
answer this then:
if & when the dollar goes to hell, WHAT will become the ad hoc standard for trade?
We are NOT talking about a NEW paper currency.
If paper currency fails, WHAT will take it's place.
I'm hearing "time and technology have made gold obsolete" uttered in the same sentence as "why would they want gold and not bread" ... so what the fuck is it ... are we gonna trade eachother semiconductors for necessities or bread ...
???
WHAT GREAT NEW TECHNOLOGY HAS ENOUGH VALUE BY WEIGHT TO TRADE FOR LARGER ITEMS WITHOUT BEING CUMBERSOME ITSELF?
I want to buy 5 cows, a dozen chickens, 40lbs of rice, a remmington, two electric generators, and 80 gallons of diesel ... WHAT SUPER-TECHNOLOGY AM I TRADING FOR IT?
An iphone? Are iphones the new gold? All that for just 15 i phones?
???
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
OK.
answer this then:
if & when the dollar goes to hell, WHAT will become the ad hoc standard for trade?
We are NOT talking about a NEW paper currency.
If paper currency fails, WHAT will take it's place.
I'm hearing "time and technology have made gold obsolete" uttered in the same sentence as "why would they want gold and not bread" ... so what the fuck is it ... are we gonna trade eachother semiconductors for necessities or bread ...
???
WHAT GREAT NEW TECHNOLOGY HAS ENOUGH VALUE BY WEIGHT TO TRADE FOR LARGER ITEMS WITHOUT BEING CUMBERSOME ITSELF?
I want to buy 5 cows, a dozen chickens, 40lbs of rice, a remmington, two electric generators, and 80 gallons of diesel ... WHAT SUPER-TECHNOLOGY AM I TRADING FOR IT?
An iphone? Are iphones the new gold? All that for just 15 i phones?
???
dude you are falling further and further off the reservation. paper money, namely the american dollar, isnt going anywhere.
OK.
answer this then:
if & when the dollar goes to hell, WHAT will become the ad hoc standard for trade?
We are NOT talking about a NEW paper currency.
If paper currency fails, WHAT will take it's place.
I'm hearing "time and technology have made gold obsolete" uttered in the same sentence as "why would they want gold and not bread" ... so what the fuck is it ... are we gonna trade eachother semiconductors for necessities or bread ...
???
WHAT GREAT NEW TECHNOLOGY HAS ENOUGH VALUE BY WEIGHT TO TRADE FOR LARGER ITEMS WITHOUT BEING CUMBERSOME ITSELF?
I want to buy 5 cows, a dozen chickens, 40lbs of rice, a remmington, two electric generators, and 80 gallons of diesel ... WHAT SUPER-TECHNOLOGY AM I TRADING FOR IT?
An iphone? Are iphones the new gold? All that for just 15 i phones?
???
euros.
paper money isn't going anywhere. you'll just need more of it. the great depression didn't destroy the world and neither will whatever it is you're fearing.
are you seriously trying to tell me that when this apocalyptic market crash occurs you're going to try going into the grocery store, load up your cart, and then offer to pay with a sliver of gold? seriously? that's what you're saying?
dude you are falling further and further off the reservation. paper money, namely the american dollar, isnt going anywhere.
Damnit, Jlew, we are talking about IFs and WHENs here.
This is a theoretical debate, i thought.
The guy is saying gold has been superceded by some new technology.
I just want an answer.
IF and WHEN the bottom ever falls out,
WHAT will we trade with, for large transactions like i listed above, WHAT will suffice to trade with that won't spoil or be cumbersome to get to market with. And what will have NEAR UNIVERSAL appeal.
If you claim gold is obsolete,
WHAT is the new gold?
Huh?
And Jlew,
i think you have already admitted that the economic outlook in the near to mid term is by no means bright.
So i paint my picture in darker shades of gray than you, so what of it?
I don't mean we will all be out in the streets tomorrow,
but i think it is insane to lie on the couch and bury your head in the latest copy of People magazine and think tomorrow will be just as bright as today.
The light of American economics is on the fritz.
Unlesss someone figures out how to service the fucker quick, we could all be in the dark.
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
Damnit, Jlew, we are talking about IFs and WHENs here.
This is a theoretical debate, i thought.
The guy is saying gold has been superceded by some new technology.
I just want an answer.
IF and WHEN the bottom ever falls out,
WHAT will we trade with, for large transactions like i listed above, WHAT will suffice to trade with that won't spoil or be cumbersome to get to market with. And what will have NEAR UNIVERSAL appeal.
If you claim gold is obsolete,
WHAT is the new gold?
Huh?
And Jlew,
i think you have already admitted that the economic outlook in the near to mid term is by no means bright.
So i paint my picture in darker shades of gray than you, so what of it?
I don't mean we will all be out in the streets tomorrow,
but i think it is insane to lie on the couch and bury your head in the latest copy of People magazine and think tomorrow will be just as bright as today.
The light of American economics is on the fritz.
Unlesss someone figures out how to service the fucker quick, we could all be in the dark.
i'm saying the days of barter are over. economies are too complex and most people don't produce or receive goods for services. IF paper money fails... you think people will be trading gold nuggets and collecting sacks of gold after a few weeks at the office? mcdonald's wages will be paid in gold?
paper money is symbolic and flexible and integral to modern economies. most work is office or service work. you cannot pay that in hard goods like gold. it's not like when most people farmed and could say "i'll trade you my potatoes for your gold." and it will never be that way again. you work and receive and income value on your work which is accepted by all retailers who pay their workers on the same system.
this is why i think the stock market is bogus... this market you are so beholden to and stressed by is no more real than paper money. what do you own? a "piece" of a company? it's as imaginary and valueless as the money you're so worried about.
paper money isn't going anywhere. you'll just need more of it. the great depression didn't destroy the world and neither will whatever it is you're fearing.
are you seriously trying to tell me that when this apocalyptic market crash occurs you're going to try going into the grocery store, load up your cart, and then offer to pay with a sliver of gold? seriously? that's what you're saying?
In the situations we were discussing, namely grave and catastrophic market failure (and if you people think that is beyond occuring, you may want to wake up. there is SOOOOOOOOoooooooooo much bad debt out there. SOMEONE has to cover it. If they can't figure out how to move this shell game around without the public and the market catching on, SOMEONE is gonna take a HUGE fall!)
...
...anyhow ... in a catastrophic failure of the market ... if the banks go insolvent and the government has to print billions or even tRILLIONS more to meet the needs of the banks, your dollar will PLUNGE in value.
Look, in a functioning market, NO, you can't go in to a store with gold ... because the government has effectively limited your ability to trade gold as a currency, but uncoupling it from the dollar, and causing its value to fluctuate and thus people don't feel capable of understanding it, and are unsure that it will be worth tomorrow what it was worth today ...
IN A MARKET COLLAPSE ALL THAT IS OUT THE WINDOW.
The DOLLAR IS WORTHLESS, that is a starting assumption.
How do you no see that?
You want to argue they will only accept dollars, but dollars will be worth pennies if inflation turns to hyper inflation.
if you still want to argue that silliness, how bout this.
If the grocerystores are really still only accepting cash (why in gods name would they do this? beats me. but people can be sheep) ... assuming you are correct, there would still be a link between gold and paper currency. My gold would be worth 3 or 4 times what it is worth now, and your dollars would be worth shit.
I could just trudge right on down to ANY pawn shop, exchange, or likely a financial institution. and they would GLADLY TAKE MY GOLD!
They would be like "oh here Mr. Idiot. Take as many dollars as you want. Here is $3000 an ounce. Please give me your gold!"
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
the american economy, more specifically the stock market, has been booming in the past few years. (Dow over 14,000!!!! never thought it would happen that fast) its only healthy for it to come back down. thats what I'm saying when I admit "things aren't too bright"
and yes the dollar is weak. probably too weak for my liking, but that will reverse too. more and more I'm seeing that the war spending, and peoples opinion of america is getting killed by bush. I also suspect people around the world are secretly boycotting us. just a hunch.
the bush tax cuts have helped the economy grow but he has overwhelming hurt our image around the world.
and guess what, he only has a year left. thats why I think things will be much much better in 1-3 years.......
In the situations we were discussing, namely grave and catastrophic market failure (and if you people think that is beyond occuring, you may want to wake up. there is SOOOOOOOOoooooooooo much bad debt out there. SOMEONE has to cover it. If they can't figure out how to move this shell game around without the public and the market catching on, SOMEONE is gonna take a HUGE fall!)
...
...anyhow ... in a catastrophic failure of the market ... if the banks go insolvent and the government has to print billions or even tRILLIONS more to meet the needs of the banks, your dollar will PLUNGE in value.
Look, in a functioning market, NO, you can't go in to a store with gold ... because the government has effectively limited your ability to trade gold as a currency, but uncoupling it from the dollar, and causing its value to fluctuate and thus people don't feel capable of understanding it, and are unsure that it will be worth tomorrow what it was worth today ...
IN A MARKET COLLAPSE ALL THAT IS OUT THE WINDOW.
The DOLLAR IS WORTHLESS, that is a starting assumption.
How do you no see that?
You want to argue they will only accept dollars, but dollars will be worth pennies if inflation turns to hyper inflation.
if you still want to argue that silliness, how bout this.
If the grocerystores are really still only accepting cash (why in gods name would they do this? beats me. but people can be sheep) ... assuming you are correct, there would still be a link between gold and paper currency. My gold would be worth 3 or 4 times what it is worth now, and your dollars would be worth shit.
I could just trudge right on down to ANY pawn shop, exchange, or likely a financial institution. and they would GLADLY TAKE MY GOLD!
They would be like "oh here Mr. Idiot. Take as many dollars as you want. Here is $3000 an ounce. Please give me your gold!"
i'm saying the days of barter are over. economies are too complex and most people don't produce or receive goods for services. IF paper money fails... you think people will be trading gold nuggets and collecting sacks of gold after a few weeks at the office? mcdonald's wages will be paid in gold?
paper money is symbolic and flexible and integral to modern economies. most work is office or service work. you cannot pay that in hard goods like gold. it's not like when most people farmed and could say "i'll trade you my potatoes for your gold." and it will never be that way again. you work and receive and income value on your work which is accepted by all retailers who pay their workers on the same system.
this is why i think the stock market is bogus... this market you are so beholden to and stressed by is no more real than paper money. what do you own? a "piece" of a company? it's as imaginary and valueless as the money you're so worried about.
Dude.
Don't take this the wrong way.
I hear you.
Your though process resembles mine circa my EARLY 20s.
Stock has value because in REALITY, not in THEORY, you own a piece of the company. If you bought 50% of the shares, the company would be on your books, AS IF YOU WERE THE OWNER.
You would CONTROL that company.
That is why voting shares cary value.
You are correct, for the common man, stock is a bit of a sham. But the original concept behind stock was nothing more than a CAPITAL RAISING MEAUSURE that offered the buyer control of the company (or at least a promise of some dividends) in exchange for giving the company much needed WORKING CAPITAL.
I give you a vote, you give me money to run the company.
Of course, that is today only an IPO ... which the common man is excluded from (because he is apparently to stupid to be trusted with such a "risky" investment) ...
the secondary market is goofy. but it is real.
???
I still think you miss the point.
If PAPER MONEY plunges in value (and if you don't understand that it can, and HAS happened before, both in US history and plenty of times in world history) then i can't even continue the conversation.
You are missing the boat completely.
Paper money can go down in value.
If it does, gold WILL go up in value.
IT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.
Gold was $300 an ounce in 2001.
It's $750 right now.
THAT IS REAL.
THAT IS REAL.
THAT IS REAL.
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
Dude.
Don't take this the wrong way.
I hear you.
Your though process resembles mine circa my EARLY 20s.
Stock has value because in REALITY, not in THEORY, you own a piece of the company. If you bought 50% of the shares, the company would be on your books, AS IF YOU WERE THE OWNER.
You would CONTROL that company.
That is why voting shares cary value.
You are correct, for the common man, stock is a bit of a sham. But the original concept behind stock was nothing more than a CAPITAL RAISING MEAUSURE that offered the buyer control of the company (or at least a promise of some dividends) in exchange for giving the company much needed WORKING CAPITAL.
I give you a vote, you give me money to run the company.
Of course, that is today only an IPO ... which the common man is excluded from (because he is apparently to stupid to be trusted with such a "risky" investment) ...
the secondary market is goofy. but it is real.
???
I still think you miss the point.
If PAPER MONEY plunges in value (and if you don't understand that it can, and HAS happened before, both in US history and plenty of times in world history) then i can't even continue the conversation.
You are missing the boat completely.
Paper money can go down in value.
If it does, gold WILL go up in value.
IT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.
Gold was $300 an ounce in 2001.
It's $750 right now.
THAT IS REAL.
THAT IS REAL.
THAT IS REAL.
but that gold is still only worth trading for money. it's still a paper money economy. you cannot trade gold for rent, groceries, or gas. you can only get paper money for it. you would get more money for it maybe, but is that becos gold is more valuable or becos the dollar is less valuable. all you're doing is hedging your savings essentially.
as to the stock market, it is ridiculous for you to say paper money is worthless and owning stock is not. they are both simply abstract concepts and symbols. if you have $1000, it is worth nothing more than what you can trade it for. if you own $1000 in stock, it is still worth nothing more than what you can trade it for.
but that gold is still only worth trading for money. it's still a paper money economy. you cannot trade gold for rent, groceries, or gas. you can only get paper money for it. you would get more money for it maybe, but is that becos gold is more valuable or becos the dollar is less valuable. all you're doing is hedging your savings essentially.
as to the stock market, it is ridiculous for you to say paper money is worthless and owning stock is not. they are both simply abstract concepts and symbols. if you have $1000, it is worth nothing more than what you can trade it for. if you own $1000 in stock, it is still worth nothing more than what you can trade it for.
like i said, the reality is, when a company goes public they sell "shares" of OWNERSHIP in the company for the fractional amount they think accounts for the total value of the company. You buy whichever fraction you so choose.
It is abstract when it hits the secondary market in that you are bidding on a relative value of a companies worth. But it isn't fake. You are buying ownership of a company.
Fiat money is intrinsicaly worthless. The stock entitles you to shares of a company. The dollars in your pocket is worth ONLY what someone will take it off of you for. is willing to EXCHANGE it for.
If that relation ship goes south, if the merchant no longer has any faith that the dollar you are giving him will buy him a loaf of bread ... if inflation runs rampant and it takes $500 to buy a loaf of bread ... then that merchant is not going to want your dollars ... you probably won't have enough to give him to get what you want anyhow ...
... but he will, IN THAT EVENT, probably take your damn gold.
The fact that you cant see that the relative valuation of golds intrinsic worth as related to the dollar is something REAL is beyond my comprehension.
Gold has REAL value. It does things. You can make shit out of it. Lots of things these days. More than in the ancient times. That should make it even MORE valuable.
The fact that gold would go up in "price" is ONLY a measure of the fact that the dollar is GOING DOWN in value.
The "real" "value" of gold is CONSTANT ...
The fact that i have to come on here and talk to you about that value in terms of US Dollars is ONLY an indication that the average person likes to THINK IN DOLLARS.
YOU CAN TRADE GOLD FOR SERVICES. YOU CAN TRADE GOLD FOR GOODS.
You can trade anything for anything you want. The fact that you seem to think noone will take gold is representative ONLY of the fact that the average person has so long been disassociate with gold that they are confused by it ... just as you VERY CLEARLY seem to be.
I sure as hell bet i could find SOMEONE to trade gold to in less than a day.
Some libertarian farmer, some pawn shop owner who "gets it" ... if "most" people won't touch it, it is only because they don't need to in a "functioning" economy with good paper dollars ... hell there is a DISINSENTIVE to trade with gold. Because thanks to Uncle Fuck You In The Ass Sam, you have to convert the gold back to dollars to pay tax on any such transaction.
That was part of the plan in 1913.
The same plan they had in 32 when they confiscated ALL THE GOLD OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.
It wasn't because gold had no value.
It was because ONLY gold had value.
The big bankers couldn't count on uncle sam to have any restraint in "borrowing" dollars from the Fed in the midst of the depression.
They were afraid that Uncle Sam and all his spending would make THEIR big banker dollars worthless.
SO what did they do?
They told FDR he needed to go get EVEYRONES GOLD!
Steal the gold of the people, pay them nominal value for it.
THEN? Did they destroy the gold because it was obsolete?
FUCK NO. THEY KEPT IT IN EXCHANGE FOR LENDING THE GOVERNMENT WORTHELSS PAPER.
They didn't trust Uncle Sam or his Treasury Bills, so they said "fuck you. get us some fucking gold or we are going to let your country sink to the bottom."
That is how valuable and constant gold is.
it is ALL the bankers want at the end of the day if there is trouble.
It is why gold went up 20%+ in the last few months.
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
If that relation ship goes south, if the merchant no longer has any faith that the dollar you are giving him will buy him a loaf of bread ... if inflation runs rampant and it takes $500 to buy a loaf of bread ... then that merchant is not going to want your dollars ... you probably won't have enough to give him to get what you want anyhow ...
... but he will, IN THAT EVENT, probably take your damn gold.
:sigh:
do you really see this happening? you need to relax and get a better grip on reality. I can understand you concern for the stock market not going straight up anymore but damn.
how did you react during the tech bubble burst in 2000? or even better, the millennium scare?? all banks and lights going off or some shit. you must have been in a straight jacket. o the hysteria.
do you really see this happening? you need to relax and get a better grip on reality. I can understand you concern for the stock market not going straight up anymore but damn.
how did you react during the tech bubble burst in 2000? or even better, the millennium scare?? all banks and lights going off or some shit. you must have been in a straight jacket. o the hysteria.
I didn't own tech stocks in 2000, i'm mostly in financials and foreign markets. I wasn't really bothered because i understood it was a "correction", not a meltdown or fundamental disorder of the market.
The Y2K bug was a joke, and as a computer nerd, i somehow just knew that.
THIS is different, Lew.
Like i have said a few times here, no i don't see that happenening TODAY or TOMORROW.
But with a "scandal" as big as this SIV thing brewing ... on top of, related to, and compounding the "subprime meltdown" ... with the numbers i quoted straight from financial analysts themselves -- that you laughed at for some reason -- i see VERY real trouble on the horizon.
The SIV problem is HUGE. Every article i have seen on it says it is poised to dwarf the S&L problem and that was unthinkably huge!
THAT ALONE IS ENOUGH TO CAUSE SEVERE PROBLEMS.
If you don't see that coming, i think maybe YOU need to read up more on how FDIC, the Fed, and "the markets" work. If these billions or possibly trillion+ dollars in bad investments by the bank get called ... if the people who DEPOSITED that money at the banks come knocking ... if the bank can't pay up ... THAT IS A HUGE PROBLEM!
That is government bailout time, and that is financial crisis.
that is liquidiy hell!
AND THAT IS JUST ONE OF A BUNCH OF FACTORS I SEE HERE IN THE MIDTERM:
Oil and its running out.
War in Iraq that may or may not get better.
This whole Iran & now Russia thing.
The environment.
None of it says "roses and blowjobs" to me.
:(
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
AND THAT IS JUST ONE OF A BUNCH OF FACTORS I SEE HERE IN THE MIDTERM:
Oil and its running out.
still a solid 20 years before it becomes a noticable problem. but nevertheless is a valid concern. I think the car companies and innovation of a replacement is lacking BIG TIME.
Bush is leaving office in a year. I think there is a great chance that the next president will immediately set a time table for troops to withdrawal. after that, things may or not get better, but I hope it does.
what about it? I think people, companies, countries as a whole are doing better to protect the environment. the whole go green thing is almost becoming a requirement.
as for your whole SIV scandal stuff, I really don't know much about it, to be honest. global debt is a problem, but you seem to doubt human determination. we are smart people, we will figure it out
still a solid 20 years before it becomes a noticable problem. but nevertheless is a valid concern. I think the car companies and innovation of a replacement is lacking BIG TIME.
Bush is leaving office in a year. I think there is a great chance that the next president will immediately set a time table for troops to withdrawal. after that, things may or not get better, but I hope it does.
not an issue IMO. just talk.
what about it? I think people, companies, countries as a whole are doing better to protect the environment. the whole go green thing is almost becoming a requirement.
as for your whole SIV scandal stuff, I really don't know much about it, to be honest. global debt is a problem, but you seem to doubt human determination. we are smart people, we will figure it out
Well i agree with you, and then i disagree with you.
Oil is going to be a "problem" in much less than 20 years.
We are already seeing prices rise, and i have yet to hear an "innocent" explanation for the price increase. Have you? Is there are refinery problem? Is iraqi instability causing it? Or is it increasing demand and decreasing supply?
I've seen government officials on video at "peak oil" conferences ... i mean arab officials openly say that they believe THEIR countries have hit or are currently hitting "peak oil" ...
that means world production is basicaly falling as we speak. but china is on the boom. that means demand is on the upswing.
So i see oil being a "problem" much sooner than 20 years out. I see it being an "all out crisis" in 20 years.
As far as the environment goes, well in 20 years if california or new york are underwater, that could have some impact, but more realisticaly, in the very short term, THE SOUTH IS OUT OF WATER. Georgia is sueing the US Government for draining its lake to send water down to Florida to save a clam and a sturgeon. Meanwhile Atlanta is predicted to be OUT OF WATER AT THE END OF THE MONTH.
This is the same for about 7 states in the south which are at STAGE 4 DROUGHT, including a good few states out west, is it not? That will cause HELL to break loose if it happens. And it looks like it IS going to happen.
The Iran \ Russia thing is just talk and it probably wont be war anytime soon but it bodes very poorly for the continuation of "peace" ... not that we have peace since we are at war ... or wait ... are we ? no we're not ... we're in battle, not war ... because we didn't declare war ... because that part of the constitution is "antiquated" ... ???
Anyhow ... i agree with you, the people will always trudge on ... but i thought this thread was about our BANK ACCOUNTS ...
yeah ... i'll still be alive tomorrow (god willing) but i'd prefer if my money was still there too and it is looking more and more like holding cash and securities is a LOOSING proposition. Gold on the other hand looks to be on the up up and away.
Or real estate. You could laugh. But everyone has to live somewhere. If you can buy a $50k house and rent it for $750 you are covering mortgage, expenses, and making a $100 or so a month ... that looks a lot better than nothing or losing money.
And YES, i see houses in my area going for 40-80K regularly. It's called the SOUTH.
PS - and for the love of god go read up on this SIV thing. It is scary as hell.
I can't believe you are in the game as deep as you are but not reading up on this.
This thing is going to be SCARY BIG!
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
I have more questions
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the amero yet.....isn't that the supposed end-game for this crash? Vincente Fox was openly discussing the amero on Larry King a few weeks ago....
Tho I see how the thread got sidetracked...when talking gold, I think we should discuss it as a commodity in relation to current systems... not about bartering....that would be assuming a pretty cataclysmic event...I guess it's possible...nukes, bird flu, rising sea levels, god and the devil....any of these things could wipe most of us out at any minute....and if it does, I will be heading up a commune on my mom's ranch, driftin can stash his gold there, and jeffbr will be welcome with his guns... we only have rifles in Canada I think jeff and Driftin are both right if we're talking total societal meltdown. Guns and gold (and land) would rule. Or maybe people would just play nice and live in small communities... isn't that what that time-traveller told us a few years back? ahhh, maybe I shouldn't jest...this world IS pretty fucked up right now...I honestly don't feel the doom and gloom is unwarranted.
But, worst-case aside...
...is re-adopting the gold standard what anti-globalization people are advocating?
If we're indulging in hypotheticals....I'm interested in your thoughts on amero vs gold standard in the future, and how either could be implemented (what would have to happen for either to become a reality? what would our property values and portfolios look like after this restructing?)....
So I tradddeeeed all my cash for gold. I'm now even getting my emmppployer to pay me in gold. I've trained my digestive system and body to funccction only on gold (replaced food, water, and oxygen). I've got a killer golllddlden tan goooing right now. Although I cannot walk as I cannot lift my heavy golden legs, I still lead a fulfilling life. Now I'm set for the collapse. Brinnnng it onnn! I figure if I am cccommmmpletely madddde out of gold I won't neeeeddd for anythiiiing.
PS: Sorrrry fooorrr the long string offf letterss. Theseee goldden fingers aree hard to lift uupp and pressssss dowwn on the keeyss.
I didn't own tech stocks in 2000, i'm mostly in financials and foreign markets. I wasn't really bothered because i understood it was a "correction", not a meltdown or fundamental disorder of the market.
The Y2K bug was a joke, and as a computer nerd, i somehow just knew that.
THIS is different, Lew.
Like i have said a few times here, no i don't see that happenening TODAY or TOMORROW.
But with a "scandal" as big as this SIV thing brewing ... on top of, related to, and compounding the "subprime meltdown" ... with the numbers i quoted straight from financial analysts themselves -- that you laughed at for some reason -- i see VERY real trouble on the horizon.
The SIV problem is HUGE. Every article i have seen on it says it is poised to dwarf the S&L problem and that was unthinkably huge!
last i checked, the s&l thing did not destroy the country, derail paper money, or send the country back into the stone age of bartering gold for goods at pawn shops.
like i said, the reality is, when a company goes public they sell "shares" of OWNERSHIP in the company for the fractional amount they think accounts for the total value of the company. You buy whichever fraction you so choose.
It is abstract when it hits the secondary market in that you are bidding on a relative value of a companies worth. But it isn't fake. You are buying ownership of a company.
Fiat money is intrinsicaly worthless. The stock entitles you to shares of a company. The dollars in your pocket is worth ONLY what someone will take it off of you for. is willing to EXCHANGE it for.
how are these different? once again, what does you "ownership" of part of the company entitle you to aside from a cut of their paper money profits? you're not even buying worthless paper money, you're buying the hope of more worthless paper money. do you get an owner's discount? a fraction of their goods? can you use this ownership and trade your part of the ownership for gas? rent? groceries? no. your ownership is as valuable as your ownership over the dollars you have. neither is worth anything more than what you can exchange them for... and the stock is worth less becos all you can exchange your ownership for is worthless paper money.
OK.
answer this then:
if & when the dollar goes to hell, WHAT will become the ad hoc standard for trade?
We are NOT talking about a NEW paper currency.
If paper currency fails, WHAT will take it's place.
I'm hearing "time and technology have made gold obsolete" uttered in the same sentence as "why would they want gold and not bread" ... so what the fuck is it ... are we gonna trade eachother semiconductors for necessities or bread ...
???
WHAT GREAT NEW TECHNOLOGY HAS ENOUGH VALUE BY WEIGHT TO TRADE FOR LARGER ITEMS WITHOUT BEING CUMBERSOME ITSELF?
I want to buy 5 cows, a dozen chickens, 40lbs of rice, a remmington, two electric generators, and 80 gallons of diesel ... WHAT SUPER-TECHNOLOGY AM I TRADING FOR IT?
An iphone? Are iphones the new gold? All that for just 15 i phones?
???
It will probably be some form of barter credit that's enhanced by technology.
I'm pretty sure it's not going to be gold.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Comments
I looked at this site. It does not go into great detail about why gold is valuable other than that is rare. Gold in itself, like paper money, is only as valuable as people make it. If paper money can lose value, so can gold (as it does in the markets). All I'm saying is that I want to know one reason as to why gold is important to the human race other than being rare. You all could be right that gold is the way to go, but the reason for its value being high because it is "rare" seems silly to me.
If one person in the world had all the gold in the world, would all then be poor? Would we all be out of jobs? Would health care cease to exist? Would we all starve? The answer is no. So, gold is not that important in the large scheme of things, which is strange to me why some people put so much value with it.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Better to invest in posters........:)
BESIDES JEWLERY,
GOLD HAS A LOT OF HIGH TECH USES
This makes it valuable.
The reason gold was always popular as a currency was because it had a high value to weight ratio ... like has been said by others in books, it could have been steel, but just imagine trying to pay for a washingmachine with steel .... you would need a TON of it.
Yeah a loaf of bread will keep you alive and gold won't, but bread goes STALE, gold doesnt. Thus people will ALWAYS look to gold as a safe STABLE medium of exchange.
And if you really think gold has no intrinsic value above that of PAPER, you are a fOOL. Go look at that list of VERY REAL USES FOR GOLD ... tell me what the fuck you are going to build with a printed piece of paper, mcgyver.
jesus.
You people who don't "believe" in gold are thinking so hard in a contrarian sense that you are blind to the obvious.
If the american economy TOOK OFF, yes, gold could go down in value. But it won't go down to less than around $300 an ounce, ever, i doubt.
The new reality is that there are so many pressures on our economy that i doubt we will ever see gold go down back past $600 (at least not in the next 5-10yrs) but it VERY likely could go up to 1000 or even 2000 an ounce.
Unfortunately, if gold gets up past, i'm guessing, $1200, that will be an indicator that we are really fucked.
start beliveing, people.
If I opened it now would you not understand?
I don't know what to tell you. we will most likely never go to war with china or russia. never. why would we? and Iran, I think its a longshot. as long as they are cooperating with the IAEA, we won't strike first.
and I don't know why you need such a indepth analysis on why gold is valuable. chicks dig it. its shiney. I like it coated on my toilet bowl. it was once used as a standard to back money. as soon as the dollar becomes stronger (and I believe in will in 2-3 years) the price of gold with come down.
and who the fuck knows what will happen to prices of anything if nuclear war happens. the price of gold will be the least of my concerns.
if the market crashes, who's gonna afford to buy it from you? you going to call moscow and ask to speak to putin and see if he wants a few of your bars, which would be peanuts to him? if the economy tanks and everyone is laid off, you going to be able to eat that gold?
i think y'all are acting like chicken little. this is why i don't play the stock market. it is no different from taking your money to vegas and hoping you pick a winner aside from the fact that it allows people to pretend they're not gambling by saying "well i read wall street journal and studied economics so it's not the same." yeah, well i watched sportscenter and was raised on ohio football, so my success rate would be just as big as yours.
i can build a pretty cool swan. my friend can make a funny looking little dress shirt. and my brother's wife once made a prom dress out of starburst wrappers, so i'm sure she could do the same with the dollar.
you need to relax man. breathe in, breathe out. you're going to be ok man. we're going to be ok. the world is going to make it. need a hug?
some of ya'll are acting obtuse and financialy daft.
if the market crashes,
everyone will still have to engage in some medium of exchange.
if you truly believe there will be no wealth left to exchange, period, you are living in some weird vision of the world.
people will need to buy and sell goods, just like before the world went to shit.
paper money has NO intrinsic value.
It is a "promise to pay", a "note" ... a debt paper.
Except, backed by and tradeable for nothing, it IS NOTHING. It only holds value in so much as the market gives it value. If the market crashes, there will be NO VALUE.
gold has VALUE.
girls like it, industries need it.
In the even of a catastrophe it will be one of a few things that people with any brains turn to as a recognized form of exchange that is truly global in its appeal.
that's all you need to know.
how can you not see that?
If I opened it now would you not understand?
I see your point, but I disagree. Time and technology and other important commodities have passed Gold by.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
OK.
answer this then:
if & when the dollar goes to hell, WHAT will become the ad hoc standard for trade?
We are NOT talking about a NEW paper currency.
If paper currency fails, WHAT will take it's place.
I'm hearing "time and technology have made gold obsolete" uttered in the same sentence as "why would they want gold and not bread" ... so what the fuck is it ... are we gonna trade eachother semiconductors for necessities or bread ...
???
WHAT GREAT NEW TECHNOLOGY HAS ENOUGH VALUE BY WEIGHT TO TRADE FOR LARGER ITEMS WITHOUT BEING CUMBERSOME ITSELF?
I want to buy 5 cows, a dozen chickens, 40lbs of rice, a remmington, two electric generators, and 80 gallons of diesel ... WHAT SUPER-TECHNOLOGY AM I TRADING FOR IT?
An iphone? Are iphones the new gold? All that for just 15 i phones?
???
If I opened it now would you not understand?
euros.
paper money isn't going anywhere. you'll just need more of it. the great depression didn't destroy the world and neither will whatever it is you're fearing.
are you seriously trying to tell me that when this apocalyptic market crash occurs you're going to try going into the grocery store, load up your cart, and then offer to pay with a sliver of gold? seriously? that's what you're saying?
This is a theoretical debate, i thought.
The guy is saying gold has been superceded by some new technology.
I just want an answer.
IF and WHEN the bottom ever falls out,
WHAT will we trade with, for large transactions like i listed above, WHAT will suffice to trade with that won't spoil or be cumbersome to get to market with. And what will have NEAR UNIVERSAL appeal.
If you claim gold is obsolete,
WHAT is the new gold?
Huh?
And Jlew,
i think you have already admitted that the economic outlook in the near to mid term is by no means bright.
So i paint my picture in darker shades of gray than you, so what of it?
I don't mean we will all be out in the streets tomorrow,
but i think it is insane to lie on the couch and bury your head in the latest copy of People magazine and think tomorrow will be just as bright as today.
The light of American economics is on the fritz.
Unlesss someone figures out how to service the fucker quick, we could all be in the dark.
If I opened it now would you not understand?
i'm saying the days of barter are over. economies are too complex and most people don't produce or receive goods for services. IF paper money fails... you think people will be trading gold nuggets and collecting sacks of gold after a few weeks at the office? mcdonald's wages will be paid in gold?
paper money is symbolic and flexible and integral to modern economies. most work is office or service work. you cannot pay that in hard goods like gold. it's not like when most people farmed and could say "i'll trade you my potatoes for your gold." and it will never be that way again. you work and receive and income value on your work which is accepted by all retailers who pay their workers on the same system.
this is why i think the stock market is bogus... this market you are so beholden to and stressed by is no more real than paper money. what do you own? a "piece" of a company? it's as imaginary and valueless as the money you're so worried about.
In the situations we were discussing, namely grave and catastrophic market failure (and if you people think that is beyond occuring, you may want to wake up. there is SOOOOOOOOoooooooooo much bad debt out there. SOMEONE has to cover it. If they can't figure out how to move this shell game around without the public and the market catching on, SOMEONE is gonna take a HUGE fall!)
...
...anyhow ... in a catastrophic failure of the market ... if the banks go insolvent and the government has to print billions or even tRILLIONS more to meet the needs of the banks, your dollar will PLUNGE in value.
Look, in a functioning market, NO, you can't go in to a store with gold ... because the government has effectively limited your ability to trade gold as a currency, but uncoupling it from the dollar, and causing its value to fluctuate and thus people don't feel capable of understanding it, and are unsure that it will be worth tomorrow what it was worth today ...
IN A MARKET COLLAPSE ALL THAT IS OUT THE WINDOW.
The DOLLAR IS WORTHLESS, that is a starting assumption.
How do you no see that?
You want to argue they will only accept dollars, but dollars will be worth pennies if inflation turns to hyper inflation.
if you still want to argue that silliness, how bout this.
If the grocerystores are really still only accepting cash (why in gods name would they do this? beats me. but people can be sheep) ... assuming you are correct, there would still be a link between gold and paper currency. My gold would be worth 3 or 4 times what it is worth now, and your dollars would be worth shit.
I could just trudge right on down to ANY pawn shop, exchange, or likely a financial institution. and they would GLADLY TAKE MY GOLD!
They would be like "oh here Mr. Idiot. Take as many dollars as you want. Here is $3000 an ounce. Please give me your gold!"
If I opened it now would you not understand?
and yes the dollar is weak. probably too weak for my liking, but that will reverse too. more and more I'm seeing that the war spending, and peoples opinion of america is getting killed by bush. I also suspect people around the world are secretly boycotting us. just a hunch.
the bush tax cuts have helped the economy grow but he has overwhelming hurt our image around the world.
and guess what, he only has a year left. thats why I think things will be much much better in 1-3 years.......
but you're still using paper money.
Dude.
Don't take this the wrong way.
I hear you.
Your though process resembles mine circa my EARLY 20s.
Stock has value because in REALITY, not in THEORY, you own a piece of the company. If you bought 50% of the shares, the company would be on your books, AS IF YOU WERE THE OWNER.
You would CONTROL that company.
That is why voting shares cary value.
You are correct, for the common man, stock is a bit of a sham. But the original concept behind stock was nothing more than a CAPITAL RAISING MEAUSURE that offered the buyer control of the company (or at least a promise of some dividends) in exchange for giving the company much needed WORKING CAPITAL.
I give you a vote, you give me money to run the company.
Of course, that is today only an IPO ... which the common man is excluded from (because he is apparently to stupid to be trusted with such a "risky" investment) ...
the secondary market is goofy. but it is real.
???
I still think you miss the point.
If PAPER MONEY plunges in value (and if you don't understand that it can, and HAS happened before, both in US history and plenty of times in world history) then i can't even continue the conversation.
You are missing the boat completely.
Paper money can go down in value.
If it does, gold WILL go up in value.
IT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.
Gold was $300 an ounce in 2001.
It's $750 right now.
THAT IS REAL.
THAT IS REAL.
THAT IS REAL.
If I opened it now would you not understand?
but that gold is still only worth trading for money. it's still a paper money economy. you cannot trade gold for rent, groceries, or gas. you can only get paper money for it. you would get more money for it maybe, but is that becos gold is more valuable or becos the dollar is less valuable. all you're doing is hedging your savings essentially.
as to the stock market, it is ridiculous for you to say paper money is worthless and owning stock is not. they are both simply abstract concepts and symbols. if you have $1000, it is worth nothing more than what you can trade it for. if you own $1000 in stock, it is still worth nothing more than what you can trade it for.
like i said, the reality is, when a company goes public they sell "shares" of OWNERSHIP in the company for the fractional amount they think accounts for the total value of the company. You buy whichever fraction you so choose.
It is abstract when it hits the secondary market in that you are bidding on a relative value of a companies worth. But it isn't fake. You are buying ownership of a company.
Fiat money is intrinsicaly worthless. The stock entitles you to shares of a company. The dollars in your pocket is worth ONLY what someone will take it off of you for. is willing to EXCHANGE it for.
If that relation ship goes south, if the merchant no longer has any faith that the dollar you are giving him will buy him a loaf of bread ... if inflation runs rampant and it takes $500 to buy a loaf of bread ... then that merchant is not going to want your dollars ... you probably won't have enough to give him to get what you want anyhow ...
... but he will, IN THAT EVENT, probably take your damn gold.
The fact that you cant see that the relative valuation of golds intrinsic worth as related to the dollar is something REAL is beyond my comprehension.
Gold has REAL value. It does things. You can make shit out of it. Lots of things these days. More than in the ancient times. That should make it even MORE valuable.
The fact that gold would go up in "price" is ONLY a measure of the fact that the dollar is GOING DOWN in value.
The "real" "value" of gold is CONSTANT ...
The fact that i have to come on here and talk to you about that value in terms of US Dollars is ONLY an indication that the average person likes to THINK IN DOLLARS.
YOU CAN TRADE GOLD FOR SERVICES. YOU CAN TRADE GOLD FOR GOODS.
You can trade anything for anything you want. The fact that you seem to think noone will take gold is representative ONLY of the fact that the average person has so long been disassociate with gold that they are confused by it ... just as you VERY CLEARLY seem to be.
I sure as hell bet i could find SOMEONE to trade gold to in less than a day.
Some libertarian farmer, some pawn shop owner who "gets it" ... if "most" people won't touch it, it is only because they don't need to in a "functioning" economy with good paper dollars ... hell there is a DISINSENTIVE to trade with gold. Because thanks to Uncle Fuck You In The Ass Sam, you have to convert the gold back to dollars to pay tax on any such transaction.
That was part of the plan in 1913.
The same plan they had in 32 when they confiscated ALL THE GOLD OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.
It wasn't because gold had no value.
It was because ONLY gold had value.
The big bankers couldn't count on uncle sam to have any restraint in "borrowing" dollars from the Fed in the midst of the depression.
They were afraid that Uncle Sam and all his spending would make THEIR big banker dollars worthless.
SO what did they do?
They told FDR he needed to go get EVEYRONES GOLD!
Steal the gold of the people, pay them nominal value for it.
THEN? Did they destroy the gold because it was obsolete?
FUCK NO. THEY KEPT IT IN EXCHANGE FOR LENDING THE GOVERNMENT WORTHELSS PAPER.
They didn't trust Uncle Sam or his Treasury Bills, so they said "fuck you. get us some fucking gold or we are going to let your country sink to the bottom."
That is how valuable and constant gold is.
it is ALL the bankers want at the end of the day if there is trouble.
It is why gold went up 20%+ in the last few months.
If I opened it now would you not understand?
do you really see this happening? you need to relax and get a better grip on reality. I can understand you concern for the stock market not going straight up anymore but damn.
how did you react during the tech bubble burst in 2000? or even better, the millennium scare?? all banks and lights going off or some shit. you must have been in a straight jacket. o the hysteria.
like soul said, can you fill up your gas tank? can you buy groceries? pay your rent? no you can not.
I didn't own tech stocks in 2000, i'm mostly in financials and foreign markets. I wasn't really bothered because i understood it was a "correction", not a meltdown or fundamental disorder of the market.
The Y2K bug was a joke, and as a computer nerd, i somehow just knew that.
THIS is different, Lew.
Like i have said a few times here, no i don't see that happenening TODAY or TOMORROW.
But with a "scandal" as big as this SIV thing brewing ... on top of, related to, and compounding the "subprime meltdown" ... with the numbers i quoted straight from financial analysts themselves -- that you laughed at for some reason -- i see VERY real trouble on the horizon.
The SIV problem is HUGE. Every article i have seen on it says it is poised to dwarf the S&L problem and that was unthinkably huge!
THAT ALONE IS ENOUGH TO CAUSE SEVERE PROBLEMS.
If you don't see that coming, i think maybe YOU need to read up more on how FDIC, the Fed, and "the markets" work. If these billions or possibly trillion+ dollars in bad investments by the bank get called ... if the people who DEPOSITED that money at the banks come knocking ... if the bank can't pay up ... THAT IS A HUGE PROBLEM!
That is government bailout time, and that is financial crisis.
that is liquidiy hell!
AND THAT IS JUST ONE OF A BUNCH OF FACTORS I SEE HERE IN THE MIDTERM:
Oil and its running out.
War in Iraq that may or may not get better.
This whole Iran & now Russia thing.
The environment.
None of it says "roses and blowjobs" to me.
:(
If I opened it now would you not understand?
still a solid 20 years before it becomes a noticable problem. but nevertheless is a valid concern. I think the car companies and innovation of a replacement is lacking BIG TIME.
Bush is leaving office in a year. I think there is a great chance that the next president will immediately set a time table for troops to withdrawal. after that, things may or not get better, but I hope it does.
not an issue IMO. just talk.
what about it? I think people, companies, countries as a whole are doing better to protect the environment. the whole go green thing is almost becoming a requirement.
as for your whole SIV scandal stuff, I really don't know much about it, to be honest. global debt is a problem, but you seem to doubt human determination. we are smart people, we will figure it out
Well i agree with you, and then i disagree with you.
Oil is going to be a "problem" in much less than 20 years.
We are already seeing prices rise, and i have yet to hear an "innocent" explanation for the price increase. Have you? Is there are refinery problem? Is iraqi instability causing it? Or is it increasing demand and decreasing supply?
I've seen government officials on video at "peak oil" conferences ... i mean arab officials openly say that they believe THEIR countries have hit or are currently hitting "peak oil" ...
that means world production is basicaly falling as we speak. but china is on the boom. that means demand is on the upswing.
So i see oil being a "problem" much sooner than 20 years out. I see it being an "all out crisis" in 20 years.
As far as the environment goes, well in 20 years if california or new york are underwater, that could have some impact, but more realisticaly, in the very short term, THE SOUTH IS OUT OF WATER. Georgia is sueing the US Government for draining its lake to send water down to Florida to save a clam and a sturgeon. Meanwhile Atlanta is predicted to be OUT OF WATER AT THE END OF THE MONTH.
This is the same for about 7 states in the south which are at STAGE 4 DROUGHT, including a good few states out west, is it not? That will cause HELL to break loose if it happens. And it looks like it IS going to happen.
The Iran \ Russia thing is just talk and it probably wont be war anytime soon but it bodes very poorly for the continuation of "peace" ... not that we have peace since we are at war ... or wait ... are we ? no we're not ... we're in battle, not war ... because we didn't declare war ... because that part of the constitution is "antiquated" ... ???
Anyhow ... i agree with you, the people will always trudge on ... but i thought this thread was about our BANK ACCOUNTS ...
yeah ... i'll still be alive tomorrow (god willing) but i'd prefer if my money was still there too and it is looking more and more like holding cash and securities is a LOOSING proposition. Gold on the other hand looks to be on the up up and away.
Or real estate. You could laugh. But everyone has to live somewhere. If you can buy a $50k house and rent it for $750 you are covering mortgage, expenses, and making a $100 or so a month ... that looks a lot better than nothing or losing money.
And YES, i see houses in my area going for 40-80K regularly. It's called the SOUTH.
PS - and for the love of god go read up on this SIV thing. It is scary as hell.
I can't believe you are in the game as deep as you are but not reading up on this.
This thing is going to be SCARY BIG!
If I opened it now would you not understand?
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the amero yet.....isn't that the supposed end-game for this crash? Vincente Fox was openly discussing the amero on Larry King a few weeks ago....
Tho I see how the thread got sidetracked...when talking gold, I think we should discuss it as a commodity in relation to current systems... not about bartering....that would be assuming a pretty cataclysmic event...I guess it's possible...nukes, bird flu, rising sea levels, god and the devil....any of these things could wipe most of us out at any minute....and if it does, I will be heading up a commune on my mom's ranch, driftin can stash his gold there, and jeffbr will be welcome with his guns... we only have rifles in Canada
But, worst-case aside...
...is re-adopting the gold standard what anti-globalization people are advocating?
If we're indulging in hypotheticals....I'm interested in your thoughts on amero vs gold standard in the future, and how either could be implemented (what would have to happen for either to become a reality? what would our property values and portfolios look like after this restructing?)....
PS: Sorrrry fooorrr the long string offf letterss. Theseee goldden fingers aree hard to lift uupp and pressssss dowwn on the keeyss.
last i checked, the s&l thing did not destroy the country, derail paper money, or send the country back into the stone age of bartering gold for goods at pawn shops.
how are these different? once again, what does you "ownership" of part of the company entitle you to aside from a cut of their paper money profits? you're not even buying worthless paper money, you're buying the hope of more worthless paper money. do you get an owner's discount? a fraction of their goods? can you use this ownership and trade your part of the ownership for gas? rent? groceries? no. your ownership is as valuable as your ownership over the dollars you have. neither is worth anything more than what you can exchange them for... and the stock is worth less becos all you can exchange your ownership for is worthless paper money.
It will probably be some form of barter credit that's enhanced by technology.
I'm pretty sure it's not going to be gold.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.