Nicolas Sarkozy plans to bypass Irish no vote

DriftingByTheStorm · June 2008

So is this whole little Ireland-EU dilemma making anyone realize how much "fun" true world government \ "global governance" is going to be?

Is some of the "crazy" shit people (ahem) on here have been discussing starting to clarify into a more understandable reality?

Do we now comprehend why the unification and consolidation of power in to the hands of elitist assholes is probably not (and will probably NEVER be) the right answer?

I believe i once got laughed at for suggesting that "they" just would NOT care about your "vote" and would ignore you.

How "funny" is that notion these day?

:(

lgt · June 2008

Heineken Helen wrote:

:eek: NO! That's what politics SHOULD be... and it so often proves NOT to be.

I agree, the theory is not always the practice. But it is up to every citizen and activist to ensure that this happens: either by being actively involved in political campaigns or just by casting the ballot.

Heineken Helen · June 2008

dunkman wrote:

but the only problem is you leave the decision with a bunch of people who know fuck all about the topic they've been asked to vote on.

you yourself on the 28th April 2008 said:-
http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=5410228&postcount=1

my my.. havent we be reading up on it... you're the expert on it after a month?

that's almost 2 months dunk :rolleyes: and if you read about it in the paper every day, watched it on the news every day, checked online sources every day, read all the leaflets every day... debated it every day... you might have a fair fucking idea too what it's about :mad:

Heineken Helen · June 2008

lgt wrote:

Of course, it won't be the Lisbon Treaty, but it will be called something else.

But if there is a will, there will be a way.

:( wow! And you're fine with that?

lgt · June 2008

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

So is this whole little Ireland-EU dilemma making anyone realize how much "fun" true world government \ "global governance" is going to be?

Is some of the "crazy" shit people (ahem) on here have been discussing starting to clarify into a more understandable reality?

Do we now comprehend why the unification and consolidation of power in to the hands of elitist assholes is probably not (and will probably NEVER be) the right answer?

I believe i once got laughed at for suggesting that "they" just would NOT care about your "vote" and would ignore you.

How "funny" is that notion these day?

:(

er... do you know what the Treaty was about??

It was actually about increasing democracy, so that people had more of an influence via their representatives in the EU parliament and via qualified majority voting.

What elite assholes do you actually refer to??

Rhinocerous Surprise · June 2008

Heineken Helen wrote:

:( wow! And you're fine with that?

Third time's a charm?

nobody · June 2008

let me try and ask something...
this treaty dies, because of Irelands vote...after that several countries, many of which supported the treaty will decide to form something similiar to the outline in the treaty...others won't...

what problem exactly will you have with that?
it would rid you of many problems and some said that don't want to be part of the union anymore anyway...

m.

Collin · June 2008

lgt wrote:

whereas imposing the will of a minority would be preferable to negotiation and compromise of different interests??!!

It's not imposing the will of a minority. It's imposing the will of the EU.

Heineken Helen · June 2008

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

So is this whole little Ireland-EU dilemma making anyone realize how much "fun" true world government \ "global governance" is going to be?

Is some of the "crazy" shit people (ahem) on here have been discussing starting to clarify into a more understandable reality?

Do we now comprehend why the unification and consolidation of power in to the hands of elitist assholes is probably not (and will probably NEVER be) the right answer?

I believe i once got laughed at for suggesting that "they" just would NOT care about your "vote" and would ignore you.

How "funny" is that notion these day?

:(

It's not very funny at all :( and the weird thing is the words of the yes people are scaring the shit out of me. They talk about how undemocratic it all was so they're just going to call it something else and ignore our vote. And one wonders why I've been becoming more paranoid recently? The celebrations over the weekend were short lived. Sadly back to reality... back to fucking 1984! AND THE YES PEOPLE THINK WE'RE WRONG? We chose... we voted... we just voted the wrong way! This is seriously all wrong!

Heineken Helen · June 2008

lgt wrote:

er... do you know what the Treaty was about??

It was actually about increasing democracy, so that people had more of an influence via their representatives in the EU parliament and via qualified majority voting.

What elite assholes do you actually refer to??

so we'll just ignore democracy to pass it?

Rhinocerous Surprise · June 2008

nobody wrote:

let me try and ask something...
this treaty dies, because of Irelands vote...after that several countries, many of which supported the treaty will decide to form something similiar to the outline in the treaty...others won't...

what problem exactly will you have with that?
it would rid you of many problems and some said that don't want to be part of the union anymore anyway...

m.

A two-tier Europe will be vetoed by lots of bigger countries, like Britain, and they'll be listened to. Cos they're bigger than us.

lgt · June 2008

Heineken Helen wrote:

:( wow! And you're fine with that?

But Helen, are you fine with blocking what a majority of other countries want to do?!?

I don't get that. I mean, seriously.

One country decided via referendum that they don't want further integration. OK, fine.

[same as the UK, Norway, e.g. BTW, Greenland also left the EU but still receiving subsidies via Denmark so, there is a way out, which incidentally the Lisbon Treaty codified]

But why the others should stop if they want to progress with "ever closer union"? that would be undemocratic. To impose the will of one over 26.

BTW, "ever closer union" is in the Treaty of Rome, the founding Treaty of the European Coal and Steel Community, the forebear of the EU.

It was never just about economic integration. It was about peace and prosperity and "ever closer union"

Heineken Helen · June 2008

nobody wrote:

let me try and ask something...
this treaty dies, because of Irelands vote...after that several countries, many of which supported the treaty will decide to form something similiar to the outline in the treaty...others won't...

what problem exactly will you have with that?
it would rid you of many problems and some said that don't want to be part of the union anymore anyway...

m.

I think it's time to stop and relax... what's the bloody hurry anyway? I think each government needs to talk to and listen to their people and find out what the problem is... why do people keep voting down these treatys in referendums? Until they listen to the people they cannot call themselves democratic.

Does ANYONE have a problem with taking a deep breath and a step back or is there a reason this has to be rushed through?

nobody · June 2008

Heineken Helen wrote:

Yeh yeh, people keep pointing that out to us. I never said we as a country would have less power... my problem has ALWAYS been that the power will be even LESS in the hands of the people... citizens initiative my arse... that's all we'd be left with.

BTW, do you know Ireland always comes up close to tops in polls as to satisfaction rating regarding the EU. We love the EU, nobody wants to leave... but we certainly don't wanna join the USE... who said Germany lost the war eh? (and I'm sorry if you take offense at that... but you have to see we're coming from 2 different sides here... why do you think Germans seem to be PRO treaty?)

well, then don't join the USE. please believe me that i don't want to take that away from you...but if some contries want to, under a new treaty that won't affect you in any way whatsoever(except you believe they want to include you with force afterward or starve you economically), what's the problem?

m.

Specifics · June 2008

lgt wrote:

whereas imposing the will of a minority would be preferable to negotiation and compromise of different interests??!!

No, i would just prefer it if governements kept their ideas a little smaller and let the people get on with making life. They are politicians, they are not wisemen or great philosophers, by their very nature, they are just people that want to be important.

Heineken Helen · June 2008

lgt wrote:

But Helen, are you fine with blocking what a majority of other countries want to do?!?

Yes I am... cos that's the process. If it were Germany who blocked it, we'd just accept it. There would be NO talk of proceeding anyway... sure they might change the name, a few words, and deny the people the vote again... but they would not leave them out. Are YOU fine with us being outcasts now simply cos we made the choice? It's not our fault we have a veto...

Rhinocerous Surprise · June 2008

lgt wrote:

But Helen, are you fine with blocking what a majority of other countries want to do?!?

I don't get that. I mean, seriously.

One country decided via referendum that they don't want further integration. OK, fine.

[same as the UK, Norway, e.g. BTW, Greenland also left the EU but still receiving subsidies via Denmark so, there is a way out, which incidentally the Lisbon Treaty codified]

But why the others should stop if they want to progress with "ever closer union"? that would be undemocratic. To impose the will of one over 26.

BTW, "ever closer union" is in the Treaty of Rome, the founding Treaty of the European Coal and Steel Community, the forebear of the EU.

It was never just about economic integration. It was about peace and prosperity and "ever closer union"

Three countries have shot this down. They just keep finding ways to resuscitate the corpse.

lgt · June 2008

Heineken Helen wrote:

so we'll just ignore democracy to pass it?

Democracy is being exercised.

18 countries said yes.

1 said no.

More countries may say yes or no.

Those who say yes, even if just 18 are a majority.

The core founding member states will say yes [regardless of the right-wing Berlusconi government, the Italian parliament will ratify Lisbon.]

A way to move forward will be found.

Those who want to stay put will stay there. No one is saying anything.

But why preventing the others to move forward???

This is democratic??!

Heineken Helen · June 2008

nobody wrote:

well, then don't join the USE. please believe me that i don't want to take that away from you...but if some contries want to, under a new treaty that won't affect you in any way whatsoever(except you believe they want to include you with force afterward or starve you economically), what's the problem?

m.

I would have no problem with that if they asked the fucking PEOPLE what they want :(

lgt · June 2008

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

A two-tier Europe will be vetoed by lots of bigger countries, like Britain, and they'll be listened to. Cos they're bigger than us.

Not really.

Britain never wanted to be part of the eurozone.

Did that stop the other countries that wanted to move forward?

I believe Ireland went ahead on this issue too.

Nicolas Sarkozy plans to bypass Irish no vote

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