Who here doesnt think the US government is insanely out of control?

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  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    It was more taxes=less freedom.

    I say that because the more tax the government collects, the larger it becomes and the more control it has over our lives.

    Additionally, the more taxes that are collected means the less money we all have to spend and if you have no money to spend it's difficult to be free to do things, or buy groceries, or pay utilities or housing, etc.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • stupidcorporatewhore
    stupidcorporatewhore Posts: 761
    know1 wrote:
    It was more taxes=less freedom.

    I say that because the more tax the government collects, the larger it becomes and the more control it has over our lives.

    Additionally, the more taxes that are collected means the less money we all have to spend and if you have no money to spend it's difficult to be free to do things, or buy groceries, or pay utilities or housing, etc.

    by that definition, yes, less freedom. you pay more taxes you lose your freedom to go to a van halen concert. whatever.

    it's not the same thing as a loss of RIGHTS!

    last time a democrat was president we balanced the budget and finished the century with a SURPLUS!

    but you don't want to go back to that?

    Americas slide towards becoming a third world nation (also partially Clinton's fault with NAFTA) suits you better then fine.

    vote repub in 08! the sooner america collapses, the sooner the rebuilding can begin.
  • stupidcorporatewhore
    stupidcorporatewhore Posts: 761
    know1 wrote:
    Since the tax rate is so much higher on the wealthy, I do not see how it is designed to benefit them.

    absoulutely,

    people working three jobs should shut the fuck up. They should only pray they don't have to deal with the biggest problem the rich in this country have..

    do I drive the ferrari or the porshe?

    and don't even get me started on how they're being soaked on the gold plated swimming pools.

    seriously, the rich benefit the most, they should contribute the most. and no I'm not a communist. I think the system could be fairer
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    stupidcorporatewhore wrote:

    seriously, the rich benefit the most, they should contribute the most. and no I'm not a communist. I think the system could be fairer

    huh? the rich benefit the most from who? not the government so why should they contribute the most?
  • my2hands
    my2hands Posts: 17,117
    jlew24asu wrote:
    I'll tell ya whats weak is this whole robin hood philosophy you have.
    it is not stealing...it is called the fortunate helping out the less fortunate. how much is enough? do people really need 50 billion fucking dollars? while people starve and elderyl and disable people struggle week to week? you call it robin hood, i call it humanity
    the top 5% pay 53.25% of all income taxes.
    1. where do you get this... 2. i do believe the top 5% of the wealthy are worth/earn control.own more than 53.25% of the wealth... i dont have the exact #, but i am sure they have more than 53% of the wealth
    is that fair???
    is it fair that people starve everyday and peopel with disbalilites or on a fixed income struggle while some jackass sits on $50 billion, or $50 million? i dont think so. they exploited the country and its system to earn that wealth, now gove soome back you greedy fucking bastards. again, how much is enough? i mean jesus christ it is sickening
    I don't agree with penalizing people for being successful.
    neither do i... you really think taxing a guy that makes $20,000,000 a year is penalizing? come on dude, lets deal with reality here. it is not "penalizing"... it is called taxing those that can afford it for the benefit of the masses and the country...

    i guess you think a guy like warren buffet should pay a loew tax % then his secretary? what a joke

    the economy is about main street, not wall street
  • my2hands
    my2hands Posts: 17,117
    jlew24asu wrote:
    huh? the rich benefit the most from who? not the government so why should they contribute the most?

    apparntly your not familiar with corporate welfare or the attempted privatization of everything... every $ the fed govt spends ends up in someones pocket, and it isnt yours and mine my friend..

    think of it as an upside down funnell
  • SundaySilence
    SundaySilence Posts: 537
    know1 wrote:
    We cut programs - including ending the war - and either keep taxes the same or lower them.

    I've never said we could eliminate all taxes. But I oppose all new taxes at this point. Government needs to trim the fat and not continually look for handouts.

    And yes - I firmly believe that higher taxes = less freedom.

    Taxes in the United States are low compared to other industrialized countries (and that is good):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP
  • SundaySilence
    SundaySilence Posts: 537
    jlew24asu wrote:
    I'll tell ya whats weak is this whole robin hood philosophy you have. the top 5% pay 53.25% of all income taxes. is that fair???

    It depends on the distribution of wealth.

    http://www.stateofworkingamerica.org/tabfig/05/SWA06_Fig5A.jpg
  • SundaySilence
    SundaySilence Posts: 537
    jlew24asu wrote:
    wow big swing and a miss there. that is completely not true. like know1 said, everyone can avoid taxes (through deductions) the same exact way. this isnt a perk for the rich.

    Tax shelters and shrewd tax lawers are more accessable to the rich. Unearned income (dividends, capital gains) are taxed at a lower rate than earned income (wages). Also those in a higher income bracket are less likely to be audited.
  • SundaySilence
    SundaySilence Posts: 537
    know1 wrote:
    Yeah - Republicans GIVE money to the rich.

    I'm basing my opinion on the fact that anytime taxes are increased, people lose freedom. It's a simple concept, but one that's hardly mentioned.

    More taxes = less freedom

    Republican control of the executive branch and both houses has increased expenses. The same as increasing taxes.

    But the've lowered taxes on wealth, leaving the increased debt to be paid in the future more skewed onto the backs of workers.

    And there's no "fact that anytime taxes are increased, people lose freedom", thats semantics.
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    SundaySilence wrote:
    Republican control of the executive branch and both houses has increased expenses. The same as increasing taxes.

    But the've lowered taxes on wealth, leaving the debt to be paid in the future more skewed on the backs of workers.

    And there's no "fact that anytime taxes are increased, people lose freedom", thats semantics.
    Also, wouldn't "More taxes = less freedom" equal Money = Freedom?

    Now, with the basic spiritual understanding I have of Know1, this seems rather contradictory to me.

    I've heard it said that freedom comes when all hope is lost.
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • SundaySilence
    SundaySilence Posts: 537
    know1 wrote:
    I think the government is completely out of control.

    I also think it will get even worse if there's a Democratic President with a Democratic congress.

    Talk about liberties being stripped away.

    I shudder to think about it.

    Maybe it will be of some consolation to you to learn that government spending as a percentage of GDP decreased under our last two democratic presidents.
  • SundaySilence
    SundaySilence Posts: 537
    jlew24asu wrote:
    huh? the rich benefit the most from who? not the government so why should they contribute the most?

    As my2hands points out, corporate welfare.

    The infrastucture is used more by the the rich. The poor don't even use roads in the face of a hurricaine and flood. Corporations and industry use roads, and the bigger they are the more they use. Airlines (heavily subsidized) are used more by the wealthy.

    Corporatization itself is a government-business partnership allowing the business end of the partnership the benefit of decreased liability.

    Owners of companies and corporations benefit from the public education of their employees.

    Trade and tariff laws benefit more those who are making more money

    The very blanket of freedom that our government provides (at mostly the poors' expense I might add) allows and facilitates the rich and powerful to make money.

    The rich and the government are in effect business partners and so you have to pay your business partner something for all the help. The government keeps the world's economic and political environment stable and safe so you (the rich) can make more money. So then you as a rich guy have to pay more.
  • SundaySilence
    SundaySilence Posts: 537
    mammasan wrote:
    Solution: http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer

    There is nothing fair about this, it is propaganda by the wealthy who want to shove the tax burden onto the middle and upper middle class. It is a regressive tax. It decreases the ability of most people to save by increasing their taxes, and expands the capacity of those with the most to save even more by lowering their taxes. This is the direction our current tax system is headed anyway. Though there is certainly a benefit of simplicity with the "fair tax".

    Saving and capital will rise though. This may be good but as a result returns on capital will fall -increased supply, less money flow. But there is no shortage of capital right now in the united states, look at how low interest rates are. There is a relative shortage of income.

    This is also the tax structure we had in this country in the 1800's. By 1897 the consumption tax ("fair tax") reached 50%. Things had to change.
  • spiral out
    spiral out Posts: 1,052
    jlew24asu wrote:
    yea that and um well your argument is rather pointless. good try though

    Yes well jlew if you read page 5 of this thread, where people had the time to explain what i was thinking of the system i think we can safely say you got owned by all of them.
    Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!

    The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
  • NMyTree
    NMyTree Posts: 2,374
    I know this will sound silly and outlandish, but....

    Maybe if our government actually stopped foolishly and deviously squandering our tax dollars on needless, manufactored wars (through lies and deception)........ on phony and fraudulent corporate contracts ( to the toon of billions), on catering to corporate entities and corporate whores, on paying congressmen/women ridiculous salaries and providing them with all encompassing health/medical benifits and pensions, on giving illegal immigrants Social Security, tax breaks and every Social Service benifit imaginable and on the hundreds ...thousands of other irresponsible expenditures.

    Maybe if there was an efficient, accountable and responsible process for tracking and recording the money coming in, for accounts payable and the allocation of tax dollars; as opposed to the bureaucratic mind-fuck of a fiscal maze that exists today (and has existed for decades and decades) ; then maybe, just maybe there would be no need to have high taxes.

    Maybe this country's infrastructure would be addressed and updated.

    Maybe we could actually have free comprehensive National Medical/Health Benefits for every woman, man and child; with a focus on preventive medicine and a healthy lifestyle/diet.

    Maybe our educational system would actually get the support and funds they need.

    Maybe the "Social Security Fund" would be over-flowing with plenty to around for everyone who needs it.

    Maybe no one would be starving, freezing, or dying in the heat.

    That's crazy talk, I know.
  • fanch75
    fanch75 Posts: 3,734
    PEPPER wrote:
    And this my freind is why I will vote Republican until the day I die.

    The last thing ANYONE should want is for the government to be in charge of your healthcare...if you don't believe me try calling the DMV or any government run service and tell me how it went.

    To be fair, the Republican party has down a horrid job as far as controlling the expanding government.

    To your second point, that's a great analogy! Come to think of it, any time I've ever needed the services of a government agency, I'm always greeted with an apathetic employee who doesn't care what my issue is, has no interest in helping, gives no effort in doing so, and has no relevant advice on what I should do. Do I want someone like that reading my bloodwork?

    Folks from other countries that may be reading this - unlike many, I have no problem if you have nationalized healthcare in your respective countries. If you like it and it works, that's great and I hope it continues to do so. However, I and many others, are suspect of its success here.
    Do you remember Rock & Roll Radio?
  • spiral out
    spiral out Posts: 1,052
    fanch75 wrote:
    Folks from other countries that may be reading this - unlike many, I have no problem if you have nationalized healthcare in your respective countries. If you like it and it works, that's great and I hope it continues to do so. However, I and many others, are suspect of its success here.

    What i don't get about you guys who appose it is, if you had a nationalized healthcare why the hell could you not still go private if you prefer it?

    Leave the free healthcare for those who can't afford to pay.
    Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!

    The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
  • fanch75
    fanch75 Posts: 3,734
    spiral out wrote:
    What i don't get about you guys who appose it is, if you had a nationalized healthcare why the hell could you not still go private if you prefer it?

    Leave the free healthcare for those who can't afford to pay.

    I'll try to answer. We have programs for those who cannot pay, Medicare & Medicaid. I can assure you that there are no Americans in the streets being denied care. Furthermore, any one (even illegal aliens) *must* receive care if they show up at an Emergency Room. It's required; they cannot be turned away.

    So, the poor are taken care of. It's the middle class that gets squeezed, as insurance premiums ($100-$400/m through medical deductions, depending on tier of coverage) are expensive but at least there is deductable from taxable income. And of course the very wealthy needn't worry as insurance coverage isn't a blip on the radar for their budgets.

    As a single guy, I pay about $90/month for my coverage. My employer pays about $250 for me each month, for about $340 in total cost.

    Are there hybrid private/government run systems in other countries?
    Do you remember Rock & Roll Radio?
  • spiral out
    spiral out Posts: 1,052
    fanch75 wrote:
    I'll try to answer. We have programs for those who cannot pay, Medicare & Medicaid. I can assure you that there are no Americans in the streets being denied care. Furthermore, any one (even illegal aliens) *must* receive care if they show up at an Emergency Room. It's required; they cannot be turned away.

    So, the poor are taken care of. It's the middle class that gets squeezed, as insurance premiums ($100-$400/m through medical deductions, depending on tier of coverage) are expensive but at least there is deductable from taxable income. And of course the very wealthy needn't worry as tehy have insurance coverage.

    Are there hybrid private/government run systems in other countries?

    Not hybrid, just here we have the NHS anyone can turn up to it rich, poor, illegal on holiday or whatever and there is private health care which if you can afford it or have private healthcare insurance through your job or you earn enough to afford that sort of thing people can use.

    As far as i can see it's always the middle classes who get shafted but at the same time they fight to protect it.
    Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!

    The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.

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