all it takes for something to exist is...

Ahnimus · April 2007

onelongsong wrote:

when he doesn't know the answer he ignores the question or modifies it.
i'm still waiting for proof that time exists.

In this case proof is an amount of evidence sufficient to convince you. Which is seemingly impossible. Yet, you've refered to time yourself within this very thread "I'll be here a while" you said, which is a direct reference to time as a reality.

I've also stated that imagining the consequences of a universe without time, results in a breakdown of all understanding. Time exists because it is necissary.

Cosmo · April 2007

onelongsong wrote:

when he doesn't know the answer he ignores the question or modifies it.
i'm still waiting for proof that time exists.

...
Today... you are one day closer to death.

catefrances · April 2007

onelongsong wrote:

time doesn't exist. you can't prove it does. time is only a method used by man to measure a section of distance that has no beginning or no end.

time does exist. Man has structured it so he can best understand its passing. but if one watches the phases of the moon and the passing across the sky of the sun, not to mention the change of seasons, then one can see time as nature intended. Man has only placed his parameters over it in order to best understand it. ever asked yourself why southern summer/northern winter is split over two calender years.

onelongsong · April 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

In this case proof is an amount of evidence sufficient to convince you. Which is seemingly impossible. Yet, you've refered to time yourself within this very thread "I'll be here a while" you said, which is a direct reference to time as a reality.

I've also stated that imagining the consequences of a universe without time, results in a breakdown of all understanding. Time exists because it is necissary.

what kind of horses ass answer is that? the universe has no beginning and no end. and what is time? why is time different everywhere? is time the same on mars? what about venus? are their days 24 of our hours? or are they in a different time zone? what is time to a comet?

catefrances · April 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

Doing LSD is an incredible experience too. Another one that I stay away from.

The "whole other world" is probably just in your mind.

how would you know tripping is an incredible experience ahnimus unless you've experienced it.

RolandTD20Kdrummer · April 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

It does not invalidate classical physics. The measuring device affects the things being measured.

Like measuring the stillness of a pond by dropping a big device in it, you upset the water and the results are then flawed.

We are not in direct contact with these quantum particles, the measuring device is the intermediary that acts on our behalf and it is responsible for altering the behavior of the quantum particles. Quantum particles <-> measuring device <-> Humans. That's the relationship, you are making the mistake of ignoring the intermediary.

Yeah, this is what I have come to understand. I think that quantum particles are one "click" or universe away from us on the scale of dimension and magnitude. They are complete, vastly complex, and seemingly infinite unto themselves.
Perhaps, arguably, they are an entirely separate, yet connected, parallel realm of existence or universe comparable to ours.

This is why I think we can only look out so far into space, using the instruments we have, to know how big the universe really is. The instruments themselves disturb and have a "consumption factor" which imposes limits on determining whats really there.

.

angelica · April 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

It does not invalidate classical physics. The measuring device affects the things being measured.

Like measuring the stillness of a pond by dropping a big device in it, you upset the water and the results are then flawed.

We are not in direct contact with these quantum particles, the measuring device is the intermediary that acts on our behalf and it is responsible for altering the behavior of the quantum particles. Quantum particles <-> measuring device <-> Humans. That's the relationship, you are making the mistake of ignoring the intermediary.

It is a human being who makes the decision on what kind of measuring they use and for what specific reasons they make such a decision. By such choices on the part of the observer he/she determines whether the "reality" or outcome of the experiment is a particle or a wave.

Classical physics is based on the idea that the observer was objective and outside the experiment itself. In the quauntum world, this once staple of the scientific method--that of objectivity of the observer--has been shown to be inaccurate.

Ahnimus · April 2007

onelongsong wrote:

what kind of horses ass answer is that? the universe has no beginning and no end. and what is time? why is time different everywhere? is time the same on mars? what about venus? are their days 24 of our hours? or are they in a different time zone? what is time to a comet?

Again you are talking about the measurement of time. None of those questions are relavent to actual time.

onelongsong · April 2007

catefrances wrote:

time does exist. Man has structured it so he can best understand its passing. but if one watches the phases of the moon and the passing across the sky of the sun, not to mention the change of seasons, then one can see time as nature intended. Man has only placed his parameters over it in order to best understand it. ever asked yourself why southern summer/northern winter is split over two calender years.

time is a measurement invented by man to measure a distance on a line that has no beginning and no end. the universe is. the moon phases are 28 days but our months are 30 days average. the sun passing accross the sky changes daily. the earth is constantly moving. so what are we measuring?
i would certainly know it's winter even if i didn't have a calender or clock.
time is mans invention.

Ahnimus · April 2007

angelica wrote:

It is a human being who makes the decision on what kind of measuring they use and for what specific reasons they make such a decision. By such choices on the part of the observer he/she determines whether the "reality" or outcome of the experiment is a particle or a wave.

Classical physics is based on the idea that the observer was objective and outside the experiment itself. In the quauntum world, this once staple of the scientific method--that of objectivity of the observer--has been shown to be inaccurate.

It has not.

I make the decision to measure liquid by volume or by weight, which produces different results, but never-the-less the liquid is the same mass.

I know you like mystery and all that Angelica, I strongly urge you to leave quantum mechanics a mystery until we find better methods of testing it. It's too early in our understanding to make blanket statements that affect various other fields of thought.

And even if, by some strange system, we can mentally affect the behavior of quantum particles, we can't mentally affect the behavior of a regular object, even though it consists of quantum particles. If our minds could affect the quantum reality, it should be able to affect the macro reality as well, which it cannot, so the whole idea is ludicrous.

Ahnimus · April 2007

onelongsong wrote:

time is a measurement invented by man to measure a distance on a line that has no beginning and no end. the universe is. the moon phases are 28 days but our months are 30 days average. the sun passing accross the sky changes daily. the earth is constantly moving. so what are we measuring?
i would certainly know it's winter even if i didn't have a calender or clock.
time is mans invention.

Doesn't matter, causality requires something to happen before an affect which occurs after, that is time.

onelongsong · April 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

Again you are talking about the measurement of time. None of those questions are relavent to actual time.

so prove actual time. you've always got scientific links or something to prove points. well; the ones you don't ignore. let's see something that proves the existance of time. and not what humans measure to be at work on time because people have thrived without ever hearing the word time.

Cosmo · April 2007

onelongsong wrote:

what kind of horses ass answer is that? the universe has no beginning and no end. and what is time? why is time different everywhere? is time the same on mars? what about venus? are their days 24 of our hours? or are they in a different time zone? what is time to a comet?

...
Yes... time exists on Venus and Mars... and the comets. But, the Earth bound clock does not.
When the Sun dies and consumes Venus... Venus will no longer exist. But, time will. Even long after the Sun is gone.
...
Do not confuse Time with Timex.

catefrances · April 2007

onelongsong wrote:

time is a measurement invented by man to measure a distance on a line that has no beginning and no end. the universe is. the moon phases are 28 days but our months are 30 days average. the sun passing accross the sky changes daily. the earth is constantly moving. so what are we measuring?
i would certainly know it's winter even if i didn't have a calender or clock.
time is mans invention.

i'm with you OSL for the most part. but i see only the measurement of time as the invention, not time itself. animals deal with time as i'm sure you know. however they do not have the 'intelligence' nor the inclination, to subject it to the constraints Man does. nor is it necessary for them to do so. they are part of the same Nature that time is.

RolandTD20Kdrummer · April 2007

Time exists because motion exists. You cannot have one without the other. Without motion time stands still...everything stands still.

All matter is affected in this manner. Am I missing something?

angelica · April 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

angelica wrote:

Classical physics is based on the idea that the observer was objective and outside the experiment itself. In the quauntum world, this once staple of the scientific method--that of objectivity of the observer--has been shown to be inaccurate.

It has not.

I make the decision to measure liquid by volume or by weight, which produces different results, but never-the-less the liquid is the same mass.

I am very literal and choose my words carefully. I said "in the quantum world, the objectivity of the observer has been shown to be inaccurate". Measuring liquid by volume and/or by weight is in the realm of classical physics. I don't dispute known classical physics laws at all. To the contrary.

Jeanie · April 2007

What if we are all wrong?

What if everything we think we know so far is not correct?

If the sum total of all that we think we know is based on a tiny flawed premise?

Who decides this anyway and how would we even know we had it wrong?

Cosmo · April 2007

Jeanie wrote:

What if we are all wrong?

What if everything we think we know so far is not correct?

If the sum total of all that we think we know is based on a tiny flawed premise?

Who decides this anyway and how would we even know we had it wrong?

...
Does it matter? So, we got it wrong... what's the damage?
I mean... does the current structure work for you?

RolandTD20Kdrummer · April 2007

http://nativopartenopeo.blogspirit.com/images/medium_homer_donuts.jpg

Ahnimus · April 2007

Jeanie wrote:

What if we are all wrong?

What if everything we think we know so far is not correct?

If the sum total of all that we think we know is based on a tiny flawed premise?

Who decides this anyway and how would we even know we had it wrong?

Well, judging by the beliefs on this board, you are all wrong

Seriously though Jeanie, this is a defetus point. We can sit here all day talking about how we are all of one consciousness with an experience of ourselves, there is no such thing as death and life is only a dream. But at the end of the day, we are still here in whatever reality we are in. The best we can do is to make sense out of reality objectively, empirically, or scientifically if you will. All the rest, pales in comparison.

all it takes for something to exist is...

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