Why doesnt Ralph Nader help build a viable 3rd party between elections?

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  • LoveRock333
    LoveRock333 Posts: 59
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    If everything comes at a cost, why not go with the best ideas we've got? If an independent Nader running for president is, as seems to be the general consensus, a suicide run to get his ideas on the table.... isn't that worthwhile in itself?


    He's not so much running to get his ideas on the table, more to get them acknowledged by the other parties.

    If he gets enough votes, then it would appear that his policies carry a good bit of weight and so the winning candidate would have to look into maybe carrying some of them out (probably to a limited degree).

    The only problem is, you have to vote for Nader to show that his policies carry weight. If too many vote for Nader, he might (hypothetically, anyway) win. Which is bad, because he's not a leader.

    All this is easily remedied by setting up a proper third party with his ideals. Does that not make more sense than having one man, doomed to fail, try endlessly to get his ideas recognised in a larger political forum that frankly doesn't want to even hear his name let alone what he has to say?
    -Defender of the faithless-

    "Hallowed are the Ori"

    http://www.freewebs.com/alnkirk - it ain't shabby!
  • Rhinocerous Surprise
    Rhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    LoveRock333 wrote:
    He's not so much running to get his ideas on the table, more to get them acknowledged by the other parties.

    If he gets enough votes, then it would appear that his policies carry a good bit of weight and so the winning candidate would have to look into maybe carrying some of them out (probably to a limited degree).

    The only problem is, you have to vote for Nader to show that his policies carry weight. If too many vote for Nader, he might (hypothetically, anyway) win. Which is bad, because he's not a leader.

    All this is easily remedied by setting up a proper third party with his ideals. Does that not make more sense than having one man, doomed to fail, try endlessly to get his ideas recognised in a larger political forum that frankly doesn't want to even hear his name let alone what he has to say?


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_nader

    I'd say reading some of that might convince you that Nader has the potential to be a good leader - at least, better than any of the other options.

    As for why he doesn't set up a third party with his ideals... that's impossible. Any political party, by default, will represent a broad range of ideals, for better or for worse. The Demmiecrats don't represent a single point of view, nor do the Republicans. If Nader doesn't want to compromise his personal beliefs to establish a "viable" 3rd party, I don't see it as a flaw. Maybe we differ there - especially since you seem to be okay with the establishment simply wanting to stop acknowledging Nader's existence. :confused:
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • LoveRock333
    LoveRock333 Posts: 59
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_nader

    I'd say reading some of that might convince you that Nader has the potential to be a good leader - at least, better than any of the other options.

    As for why he doesn't set up a third party with his ideals... that's impossible. Any political party, by default, will represent a broad range of ideals, for better or for worse. The Demmiecrats don't represent a single point of view, nor do the Republicans. If Nader doesn't want to compromise his personal beliefs to establish a "viable" 3rd party, I don't see it as a flaw. Maybe we differ there - especially since you seem to be okay with the establishment simply wanting to stop acknowledging Nader's existence. :confused:


    How do I seem ok with them wanting to voice himself? I was just pointing it out because that's what they are doing. And he doesn't have to compromise his ideals to form a political party. Why do you think his ideals are too narrow for that?

    I've already read his wiki page alright, he's done a lot of things, good for him. But he doesn't have what it takes to run a country, as evidenced by the fact he refuses to set up a third party which would bolster his campaign maybe even to the point of victory. He's had 40 goddam years, and he still hasn't done anything remotely like it. So why wouldn't a man such as Nader not set up a party with his ideals? My guess is because he wouldn't know what to do with it. Why? Because he's not that kind of leader. He's an ideas man, but not all idealists are leaders. He wouldn't be able to keep the non-relevant points of view that occur in a political party in check.

    Just because a man has good ideas, doesn't mean that he's capable of executing them.
    -Defender of the faithless-

    "Hallowed are the Ori"

    http://www.freewebs.com/alnkirk - it ain't shabby!
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    LoveRock333 wrote:

    Just because a man has good ideas, doesn't mean that he's capable of executing them.


    And how are these political parties you seem so fond of executing any of their ideas? They are the most ineffectual groups in this country. And as far as good ideas go...they are all but bankrupt. So excuse some if they might want to try another route.

    http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=5501698&postcount=20
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • LoveRock333
    LoveRock333 Posts: 59
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    And how are these political parties you seem so fond of executing any of their ideas? They are the most ineffectual groups in this country. And as far as good ideas go...they are all but bankrupt. So excuse some if they might want to try another route.

    So one man alone is better than a group of people with that, together, are better off as an individual?

    I see your point, political parties are ineffectual, don't get me wrong, but they are a means to an end. The only means to the only end, unfortunately.
    -Defender of the faithless-

    "Hallowed are the Ori"

    http://www.freewebs.com/alnkirk - it ain't shabby!
  • Rhinocerous Surprise
    Rhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    LoveRock333 wrote:
    How do I seem ok with them wanting to voice himself? I was just pointing it out because that's what they are doing. And he doesn't have to compromise his ideals to form a political party. Why do you think his ideals are too narrow for that?

    I've already read his wiki page alright, he's done a lot of things, good for him. But he doesn't have what it takes to run a country, as evidenced by the fact he refuses to set up a third party which would bolster his campaign maybe even to the point of victory. He's had 40 goddam years, and he still hasn't done anything remotely like it. So why wouldn't a man such as Nader not set up a party with his ideals? My guess is because he wouldn't know what to do with it. Why? Because he's not that kind of leader. He's an ideas man, but not all idealists are leaders. He wouldn't be able to keep the non-relevant points of view that occur in a political party in check.

    Just because a man has good ideas, doesn't mean that he's capable of executing them.

    Do you really think that a sizable 3rd party is going to consist purely of people with the same ideas as Nader? With the same refusal to compromise on the issues? It's improbable, if not impossible, and so, compromise would inevitably follow.

    Just because Nader doesn't fit the mould of what most people seem to think make a good president doesn't mean he wouldn't be one. (And really, neither Ireland's nor America's track record of leaders speaks very well to our ideas of good leadership.) An ideas man can only be an ideas man until he's put in a position to execute them. And Nader's executed a lot of ideas over the years.
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    LoveRock333 wrote:
    So one man alone is better than a group of people with that, together, are better off as an individual?

    I see your point, political parties are ineffectual, don't get me wrong, but they are a means to an end. The only means to the only end, unfortunately.


    Don't limit yourself to bad choices. I know I'm not content with that.

    People can and do work with Ralph Nader. he has founded more public interest non profits than anyone in this nation more than likely. So yes, I do believe Ralph Nader knows the value of teamwork and he has people working with him on a grassroots level already to accomplish his objectives.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    Do you really think that a sizable 3rd party is going to consist purely of people with the same ideas as Nader? With the same refusal to compromise on the issues? It's improbable, if not impossible, and so, compromise would inevitably follow.

    Just because Nader doesn't fit the mould of what most people seem to think make a good president doesn't mean he wouldn't be one. (And really, neither Ireland's nor America's track record of leaders speaks very well to our ideas of good leadership.) An ideas man can only be an ideas man until he's put in a position to execute them. And Nader's executed a lot of ideas over the years.


    Actually Nader's ideas do fit the mold of what the public wants to see. Roland posted a great Chomsky piece that highlighted how our 2 party system's policies are always too far to the right of what the general public wishes to see happen in their country.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Rhinocerous Surprise
    Rhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Actually Nader's ideas do fit the mold of what the public wants to see. Roland posted a great Chomsky piece that highlighted how our 2 party system's policies are always too far to the right of what the general public wishes to see happen in their country.

    Yeah, I should have said he doesn't fit the past pattern of presidents. You know me: always with the sweeping statements. :D
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • LoveRock333
    LoveRock333 Posts: 59
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    Do you really think that a sizable 3rd party is going to consist purely of people with the same ideas as Nader? With the same refusal to compromise on the issues? It's improbable, if not impossible, and so, compromise would inevitably follow.

    Just because Nader doesn't fit the mould of what most people seem to think make a good president doesn't mean he wouldn't be one. (And really, neither Ireland's nor America's track record of leaders speaks very well to our ideas of good leadership.) An ideas man can only be an ideas man until he's put in a position to execute them. And Nader's executed a lot of ideas over the years.


    I'm not saying he hasn't executed ideas over the years, but running a country is a tad different to campaining against safety standards in cars.

    And the people who choose to join his party need not be carbon copy clones of him, they just have to agree with him on the relevant issues. I mean, someone is going to have to succeed him eventually, wouldn't it make more sense to have a group that are capable of using his ideas, improving on them over time and when the time came, put them into action?

    And I never said he didn't fit a mould for leadership. If anything, he does have leadership qualities. I said he shouldn't run a country. He lack the pragmatism to do that as evidenced by his kamikaze campaigns.

    Yes, the man has good ideas. Yes, he's not acknowledged by the media or sometimes even by his opponents. BUT he has done sweet fuck all to improve his situation. So I deduce he either doesn't want the job, or he is incapable of getting himself elected. Because like everything in like, even when the odds are against you, you can still come out on top. He hasn't exhibited any quality that would show he is capable of evening the odds against him.
    -Defender of the faithless-

    "Hallowed are the Ori"

    http://www.freewebs.com/alnkirk - it ain't shabby!
  • LoveRock333
    LoveRock333 Posts: 59
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Don't limit yourself to bad choices. I know I'm not content with that.

    People can and do work with Ralph Nader. he has founded more public interest non profits than anyone in this nation more than likely. So yes, I do believe Ralph Nader knows the value of teamwork and he has people working with him on a grassroots level already to accomplish his objectives.


    Indeed, but he needs to make it bigger, make it official if you know what I mean. He has a lot of resources at his disposal that he's not making use of.

    The Media are hardly calculating and scheming, they're easily played for ones own benefit. Sure if he doesn't want to do that cuz of his principles, that's fine, but there are other ways to get the publicity thats being denied to him.
    -Defender of the faithless-

    "Hallowed are the Ori"

    http://www.freewebs.com/alnkirk - it ain't shabby!
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    LoveRock333 wrote:
    I'm not saying he hasn't executed ideas over the years, but running a country is a tad different to campaining against safety standards in cars.

    And the people who choose to join his party need not be carbon copy clones of him, they just have to agree with him on the relevant issues. I mean, someone is going to have to succeed him eventually, wouldn't it make more sense to have a group that are capable of using his ideas, improving on them over time and when the time came, put them into action?

    And I never said he didn't fit a mould for leadership. If anything, he does have leadership qualities. I said he shouldn't run a country. He lack the pragmatism to do that as evidenced by his kamikaze campaigns.

    Yes, the man has good ideas. Yes, he's not acknowledged by the media or sometimes even by his opponents. BUT he has done sweet fuck all to improve his situation. So I deduce he either doesn't want the job, or he is incapable of getting himself elected. Because like everything in like, even when the odds are against you, you can still come out on top. He hasn't exhibited any quality that would show he is capable of evening the odds against him.


    Lack of pragmatism? What is pragmatism then to you?...to continue this perpetual cycle of ineffectual and corrupt government that does fuck all to advance our society and implement policies for the better good of it's people and simply not it's most wealthy and most greedy, destructive, polluting corporations? How is that pragmatism working out for us? Last I checked, not too well. Gee, I wonder why he wouldn't want to work with that and why he tries so hard to rail against it? Someone needs to and it's an overwhelming task...I'm glad a few people in this country can recognize it like Nader, Gonzalez, Gravel, Paul and my fav Kucinich. These people aren't worried about being practical, falling in line and playing the same corrupt game to gain power. They see things that are wrong in this country and against all odds they stand up against it. Kudos to them! Why be practical in a system that is designed to be anything but.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Rhinocerous Surprise
    Rhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Lack of pragmatism? What is pragmatism then to you?...to continue this perpetual cycle of ineffectual and corrupt government that does fuck all to advance our society and implement policies for the better good of it's people and simply not it's most wealthy and most greedy, destructive, polluting corporations? How is that pragmatism working out for us? Last I checked, not too well. Gee, I wonder why he wouldn't want to work with that and why he tries so hard to rail against it? Someone needs to and it's an overwhelming task...I'm glad a few people in this country can recognize it like Nader, Gonzalez, Gravel, Paul and my fav Kucinich. These people aren't worried about being practical, falling in line and playing the same corrupt game to gain power. They see things that are wrong in this country and against all odds they stand up against it. Kudos to them! Why be practical in a system that is designed to be anything but.

    *stands politely to the side, and lets the master take over*

    :D:p
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    LoveRock333 wrote:
    Indeed, but he needs to make it bigger, make it official if you know what I mean. He has a lot of resources at his disposal that he's not making use of.

    The Media are hardly calculating and scheming, they're easily played for ones own benefit. Sure if he doesn't want to do that cuz of his principles, that's fine, but there are other ways to get the publicity thats being denied to him.


    I will concede that he needs to use the internet more wisely. He age does show in this area but he mind and ideas are golden as always. He needs to definitely work on making more of a splash but right now it's taking up an obscene amount of time and resources just to run petition drives from state to state to simply gain ballot access. Yay democracy! In our state, we had to throw out a ton of signatures this last week for something as moronic as the the petitions were printed on the wrong size of paper!!! Can you believe that!?
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • LoveRock333
    LoveRock333 Posts: 59
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Lack of pragmatism? What is pragmatism then to you?...to continue this perpetual cycle of ineffectual and corrupt government that does fuck all to advance our society and implement policies for the better good of it's people and simply not it's most wealthy and most greedy, destructive, polluting corporations? How is that pragmatism working out for us? Last I checked, not too well. Gee, I wonder why he wouldn't want to work with that and why he tries so hard to rail against it? Someone needs to and it's an overwhelming task...I'm glad a few people in this country can recognize it like Nader, Gonzalez, Gravel, Paul and my fav Kucinich. These people aren't worried about being practical, falling in line and playing the same corrupt game to gain power. They see things that are wrong in this country and against all odds they stand up against it. Kudos to them! Why be practical in a system that is designed to be anything but.



    So the system has fallen apart. You have to play the game in order to change the rules. No one is going to just waltz in, get elected President, fix the system and waltz out. Life, politics, whatever - Nothing is that simple. All those people you mentioned, they all had and still have some great policies, I agree. But if playing the game gets a better outcome in the long run, isn't it better for everyone that way? Holding on to your ideals about how you should go about is kinda selfish if you know that its not going to get you into a position to make a difference. Admirable, yes. Honourable, certainly. But the world needs change, and the only way it can happen is from within its already corrupt system. If you can't recognise that, then you won't get far trying to change things. That's how Nader isn't pragmatic. He isn't doing what needs to be done to make a necessary change. Instead, he's out there on his own trying to be a hero, as it were. But that's not how it works. I wish it did myself, but it doesn't. That doesn't mean he or anyone else should resign to defeat, just go about it another way. Do you see what I mean?
    -Defender of the faithless-

    "Hallowed are the Ori"

    http://www.freewebs.com/alnkirk - it ain't shabby!
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    *stands politely to the side, and lets the master take over*

    :D:p

    :o

    Written anything else today? Or posted any? Hmmmm? ;)
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Rhinocerous Surprise
    Rhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    :o

    Written anything else today? Or posted any? Hmmmm? ;)

    Written lots, posted nothing of interest. :p As usual, according to some. ;)
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • LoveRock333
    LoveRock333 Posts: 59
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    I will concede that he needs to use the internet more wisely. He age does show in this area but he mind and ideas are golden as always. He needs to definitely work on making more of a splash but right now it's taking up an obscene amount of time and resources just to run petition drives from state to state to simply gain ballot access. Yay democracy! In our state, we had to throw out a ton of signatures this last week for something as moronic as the the petitions were printed on the wrong size of paper!!! Can you believe that!?


    I honestly can't believe that... That's pretty fucked up right there. I will admit that his age is of little consequence though. He's up against the Maverick that is John McCain (he's a maverick apparently). Zimmerframes at the ready folks... :D
    -Defender of the faithless-

    "Hallowed are the Ori"

    http://www.freewebs.com/alnkirk - it ain't shabby!
  • VictoryGin
    VictoryGin Posts: 1,207
    LoveRock333 wrote:
    Holding on to your ideals about how you should go about is kinda selfish if you know that its not going to get you into a position to make a difference.

    and that right there is why i think that is also the safe way to play it. while some may think they're so honorable, they're able to sit on the throne of self-righteousness, especially once the acknowledgment is made that they're not going to win. in the end they won't really have to be accountable in a way. they can say that they stayed 100% true to their beliefs and blogged and posted about it. and once that election happens, they're in the clear. they can continue hating on president obama.

    more radical beliefs are absolutely needed in this society. but this isn't the way to accomplish these goals.
    if you wanna be a friend of mine
    cross the river to the eastside
  • Rats of Multa
    Rats of Multa Posts: 250
    LoveRock333 wrote:

    But still, if you're in the position to build a good grass-roots foundation third party and you don't do it, well you're missing out on a big chance to win people over, get your point across. Someone who doesn't avail of such an opportunity isn't worth voting for as they lack (here's the key word) pragmatism. You can have all the great ideals and best intentions in the world, but if you lack the pragmatic ability to put them into place then you're worth sweet fuck all.

    That aside, his policies are somewhat fine. And his git-ular nature aside, he'd make a fine presidenté. But he lacks that "can-do" attitude that others have. Even George W. had it. Albeit a bad kind of "can-do" spirit (I can blow up Iraqistan!)... But whatever. Doing nothing is much worse than doing something (ususally). :D


    hmm. true Ralph is and has been in a position readily equipped to try and build a third political party i America, but... if you realize that the party-system is the basic corruption in the first place why would you want to waste time building anything in relation to that system?

    i'm not saying this is Ralph Nader's secret alibi or anything, but building a new party and trying to win power within today's political environment is a bit unlikely. or maybe i'm just a pessimist..?
    we don’t know just where our bones will rest,
    to dust i guess,
    forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..

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