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Why doesnt Ralph Nader help build a viable 3rd party between elections?

my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
edited June 2008 in A Moving Train
just wondering... every 4 years he runs as a 3rd party candidate... but in between he apparently does nothing to help build an actual 3rd party structure. you know, on the local level where everything starts. maybe campaign for 3rd party candidiates in local and state elections. i believe that is why the green party had issues with him after the 2000 election...

movements are not built top down... they are built bottom up and i dont see Nader helping with that cause at all between his presidential runs

just asking
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  • flywallyflyflywallyfly Posts: 1,453
    Nader has always (and successfully I might add) run his activism from a grassroots, bottom to the top way. That is how you build a lasting Green party but i dont believe he actually cares about that party (and many Greens dont either).

    Nader has claimed he is running because Obama wouldnt meet with him and take on his ideas. So Nader is against pandering politicians but its OK for them to pander to him. Um, ok. Corporate Nader?

    Nader also claims his running for president is the only way to get his ideas out to people, especially the younger voters. Yet he whines that he gets no media coverage and no debate time. So if his way of reaching the youth is through nonmainstream media such as youtube then why does he have to run for president to get his messages out? Why not push for a Green candidate ticket that doesnt have his unelectable ass on it? His running mate Gonzalez seems to have alot of charisma and intelligence so why not run him as the candidate? I think most people know the answer already. Ralph is Ralph.

    Nader will get his 1% vote tally and claim "victory" while the Greens have to start all over again.
  • Kel VarnsenKel Varnsen Posts: 1,952
    That is what I have never understood about Nader. I mean unless he has mental problems he has to know there is no way he is ever going to be president in his lifetime. So why not try to work and build up the next people who share your beliefs, so that after you are gone, someone like you might have a shot?

    Plus I never understood his criticism about how he doesn't get any media coverage and that is why he doesn't have a shot. The problem is Nader has been in the public eye since the 1965 when Unsafe at any Speed was published. Barack Obama has at best been in the national public eye for what 4 years. Nader has been around over 10 times as long as Obama. So even if he is only getting a fraction of the coverage I would think that since he was getting it for so long if people actually wanted to vote for him it would even things out.

    It is like if 2 guys are in a marathon. One is an Olympic athlete and one is just some average fat guy. If the average fat guy starts running a week before the Olympic athlete, even though he is really slow the massive head start he had should give him an advantage, unless he just really sucks.
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    flywallyfly wrote:
    Nader has always (and successfully I might add) run his activism from a grassroots, bottom to the top way. That is how you build a lasting Green party but i dont believe he actually cares about that party





    to start a viable 3rd party movement, it has to be built ground up. gains need to be made at local levels. build an actual party and start getting people actually into office

    but he apparently has no interest in that
  • AbookamongstthemanyAbookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    my2hands wrote:
    to start a viable 3rd party movement, it has to be built ground up. gains need to be made at local levels. build an actual party and start getting people actually into office

    but he apparently has no interest in that


    Why don't you start a viable 3rd party, my2hands? You seem to have all the answers and know what every one else needs to be doing. What's stopping you?
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • kenny olavkenny olav Posts: 3,319
    when he accepted the Green Party nomination in 2000, he spoke about building the Green Party. but he was never a member of the Green Party. in 2004, he tried to get as many 'third' parties to endorse him as possible. the Green Party passed - for many different reasons, but mostly i think they wanted one of their own, and also wanted a new face. Nader succeeded in getting the national Reform party's endorsement and the endorsement of some other third parties at the state level. the Utah and Vermont Green parties endorsed Nader. i like the idea of several third parties endorsing one candidate. Nader couldn't make it happen. I was hoping Mike Gravel would try that, and back in February it sounded like he was going to, but then he only tried for the Libertarian nomination. maybe he realized he couldn't hope for better than that. maybe the problem is the third parties don't want to unite for a single purpose. maybe the problem is the inescapable nature of political parties - partisanship.

    i was once an active member of my state Green Party. i was elected Communications Director for fucks sake. but partisanship bothers me, even if i mostly agree with the party. there were several other reasons i left the green party. most of them wouldn't be right for me to post publicly (i just don't wanna talk trash about people (unless their celebrities already... haha...)) but anyway... i like being independent. maybe that's Ralph Nader's thinking too, but i don't know.
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    Kenny Olav wrote:
    i like being independent. maybe that's Ralph Nader's thinking too, but i don't know.

    so he rails against the 2 party system and the corporate contol of both major parties... but doesnt want to expend energy and resources into helping build and legitimize a viable 3rd party between election cycles to actually challenge the "status quo"... because he likes to be independent?

    i am not really buying that, maybe he is just full of shit?


    i dont know, i am asking a serious question here. i am sure some of his supporters could come up with some decent answers to this one? i am honestly interested in this...
  • AbookamongstthemanyAbookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    I'm a registered independent, too. And I like it that way. So I can understand Nader if that's his reason. It really doesn't matter, though. He's out there doing what he thinks needs to be done and how he thinks it should be done. I say that's great...it's waaaay more than most people ever bother with so who am I to criticize? Go Ralph! Keep kicking ass....there many of us who appreciate all you've done for this country.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • kenny olavkenny olav Posts: 3,319
    my2hands wrote:
    so he rails against the 2 party system and the corporate contol of both major parties... but doesnt want to expend energy and resources into helping build and legitimize a viable 3rd party between election cycles to actually challenge the "status quo"... because he likes to be independent?

    i am not really buying that, maybe he is just full of shit?


    i dont know, i am asking a serious question here. i am sure some of his supporters could come up with some decent answers to this one? i am honestly interested in this...


    listen, i flat out don't think it makes sense for him to run for a 4th time. but he is at least raising some issues that wouldn't otherwise be talked about. he may also think that third parties aren't the only way to challenge the two-party system. but i would like to hear him explain his reasons for being independent. maybe he has?
  • Rhinocerous SurpriseRhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    Maybe he's afraid a third party will end up just being another "group" for people to cling to, rather than running on his own strength as a candidate?
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • AbookamongstthemanyAbookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    Maybe he's afraid a third party will end up just being another "group" for people to cling to, rather than running on his own strength as a candidate?


    So true!!!
    I don't care for political parties, either. Why not have people just run as who they are and what they feel is important? With a political party, you have to fit their standards not your own.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    running on his own strength as a candidate?


    lol... how has that worked out?


    thats the issue. politics and movements are bigger then 1 person. whether Nader likes it or not.
  • AbookamongstthemanyAbookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    my2hands wrote:
    lol... how has that worked out?


    thats the issue. politics and movements are bigger then 1 person. whether Nader likes it or not.


    He's built his whole career around organizing people and building movements...so I think he's knows that pretty well.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Rhinocerous SurpriseRhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    my2hands wrote:
    lol... how has that worked out?


    thats the issue. politics and movements are bigger then 1 person. whether Nader likes it or not.

    So democracy is about candidates compromising their ideals?
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    Kenny Olav wrote:
    but he is at least raising some issues that wouldn't otherwise be talked about.


    like what? have any good conversations around the water cooler lately based off of something Nader raised? i sure as hell havent.


    it is absolute hubris for 1 man to think that he will be able to set the agenda and discussion in a presidential race alll by himself without a legitimate and strong organized political backing
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    He's built his whole career around organizing people and building movements...


    right... the exact reason for my question


    why hasnt he done the same thing for a political party that he has done for his own organizations. if creating a viable 3rd option is so important to him as he claims
  • AbookamongstthemanyAbookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    my2hands wrote:
    like what? have any good conversations around the water cooler lately based off of something Nader raised? i sure as hell havent.


    it is absolute hubris for 1 man to think that he will be able to set the agenda and discussion in a presidential race alll by himself without a legitimate and strong organized political backing


    and what points are being rasied by Obama?

    Oh yeah...hope and change. I hear lots to vague hope and change talk...fabulous!
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • AbookamongstthemanyAbookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    my2hands wrote:
    right... the exact reason for my question


    why hasnt he done the same thing for a political party that he has done for his own organizations. if creating a viable 3rd option is so important to him as he claims


    Maybe he doesn't care for political parties like I already mentioned. I don't much like them, either. Once a political party gains power they all become corrupt much like the ones they replaced.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    So democracy is about candidates compromising their ideals?


    who said anything about compromising ideals?


    you guys really stretch things... especially considering he has ran as a Green Party candidate 2 times and officially accpeted the endorsement of the Reform party in 2004. i dont think he has an issue with organized politcal parties. that is exactly what he stands for, an organized voice
  • Eliot RosewaterEliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    my2hands wrote:
    like what? have any good conversations around the water cooler lately based off of something Nader raised? i sure as hell havent.


    it is absolute hubris for 1 man to think that he will be able to set the agenda and discussion in a presidential race alll by himself without a legitimate and strong organized political backing
    That's where you're wrong. It's not just one man. He's the voice for millions. Especially when you look at it issue by issue.
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    and what points are being rasied by Obama?

    Oh yeah...hope and change. I hear lots to vague hope and change talk...fabulous!

    i am not really sure what obama has to do wit this thread and my question. but whatever.

    that seems to be ralphs only play in the playbook as well
  • Rhinocerous SurpriseRhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    my2hands wrote:
    who said anything about compromising ideals?


    you guys really stretch things... especially considering he has ran as a Green Party candidate 2 times and officially accpeted the endorsement of the Reform party in 2004. i dont think he has an issue with organized politcal parties. that is exactly what he stands for, an organized voice

    So surely the fact that he's running without a party this time says something?
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Maybe he doesn't care for political parties like I already mentioned.

    he has run for President 3 times on a political parties ticket


    so i am not thinking that the issue
  • AbookamongstthemanyAbookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    my2hands wrote:
    i am not really sure what obama has to do wit this thread and my question. but whatever.

    that seems to be ralphs only play in the playbook as well


    I'm just trying to get what your whole point is? You seem to hold Nader to a higher standard than Obama.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    So surely the fact that he's running without a party this time says something?

    um, no, not really


    maybe none of the 3rd parties want him? because they see that he just uses them for his agenda


    call me crazy
  • Eliot RosewaterEliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    my2hands wrote:
    um, no, not really


    maybe none of the 3rd parties want him? because they see that he just uses them for his agenda


    call me crazy
    crazy.

    just kidding. of course the benefit of a party is financing. that's a no-brainer.
  • Eliot RosewaterEliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    I'm just trying to get what your whole point is? You seem to hold Nader to a higher standard than Obama.
    can't blame anyone for that.... :)
  • AbookamongstthemanyAbookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    my2hands wrote:
    he has run for President 3 times on a political parties ticket


    so i am not thinking that the issue

    They have sought him out not the other way around. And that makes all the difference in the world. Sure he can use the support but he's saying he doesn't wanna have to adapt their platform or at least that's my opinion. And I don't blame him...I wouldn't wanna have to adapt another group's platform, either. Nader has a great set of ideas of his own that he wants to gain attentions for. I don't see a problem with that at all. What's your problem with his approach?
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    I'm just trying to get what your whole point is? You seem to hold Nader to a higher standard than Obama.


    pretty simple. my point is exactly what i asked in the original post... feel free to refer back to it


    why does people questioning Ralph Nader upset you so much? i am being serious? i mean it only took 5 posts for you to attack me when i am asking a very good question in my opinion...

    every 4 years it is the same old song and dance from Nader and his supporters... and then as soon as the election is over he is gone with the wind and abandons the "3rd party" movement
  • Rhinocerous SurpriseRhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    my2hands wrote:
    um, no, not really


    maybe none of the 3rd parties want him? because they see that he just uses them for his agenda


    call me crazy

    You're crazy. :)

    I think anyone who gives the voters a choice beyond the two main parties should be respected. If Nader feels the best choice he can give the public is by running as an independent, that's his choice. But as far as I can see, the problem isn't with Nader not having a third party - it's with the vast majority of people not looking beyond the other two.
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    Eliot Rosewater wrote:
    of course the benefit of a party is financing. that's a no-brainer.

    and organization...
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