Why doesnt Ralph Nader help build a viable 3rd party between elections?

Abookamongstthemany

LoveRock333 wrote:

So the system has fallen apart. You have to play the game in order to change the rules. No one is going to just waltz in, get elected President, fix the system and waltz out. Life, politics, whatever - Nothing is that simple. All those people you mentioned, they all had and still have some great policies, I agree. But if playing the game gets a better outcome in the long run, isn't it better for everyone that way? Holding on to your ideals about how you should go about is kinda selfish if you know that its not going to get you into a position to make a difference. Admirable, yes. Honourable, certainly. But the world needs change, and the only way it can happen is from within its already corrupt system. If you can't recognise that, then you won't get far trying to change things. That's how Nader isn't pragmatic. He isn't doing what needs to be done to make a necessary change. Instead, he's out there on his own trying to be a hero, as it were. But that's not how it works. I wish it did myself, but it doesn't. That doesn't mean he or anyone else should resign to defeat, just go about it another way. Do you see what I mean?

I'm sorry, I just don't see becoming part of the problem as anyway to change the problem. All I see is what's being proposed by the 2 major parties as piling more of the same old problems on for us to have to deal with for even longer. If we are talking change then we need to actually start seeing how this change will come about. If not then it's nothing more than a word. All the policies proposed by the mainstream parties are all part of a corrupt system whose goal is maintain power and there is no change in that. We need to do away with the whole system of corruption to really start seeing change. As of now it's merely equates to tossing cheap, tiny pieces of candy out to the crowd from a grand float on a parade route. These pieces of cheap candy only work to appease the populace when actually we should be demanding more from our government and letting them know we are paying attention and this is not acceptable. The Democratic party is nothing more than an illusion of an opposition party so it doesn't become too blatantly obvious how we are really ruled by a dictatorship where all ideas outside their narrow scope are excluded constantly and immediately labeled 'unrealistic'. The only realistic ideas are the ones they approve for us. Playing this same corrupt game says yes, this is acceptable and this is the best we can do. People like Ralph Nader don't believe this is the best we can do for one second. So they go about trying to bring change in a different manner because it's more than apparent change isn't coming by the pragmatic approach you seem content with either. It just works to rationalize keeping a bad system in place indefinitely. Where does it end? When do we get something better? Nader uses his strong, articulate voice and years of experience and knowledge to try the best he can to influence the system and the candidates running. Does he believe he'll win come November? No, of course not. But it would be an incredible thing if he did? Sure, why not? I don't see how it could be much worse than one of the mainstream phonies winning. They'll win and do next to nothing to put this country in the direction it should be headed....so no change really. If Nader won, he'll meet tons of resistance from inside the government and all the special interests really running the show BUT he'll have the will of the people on his side who DO support his policies and know he stands for REAL change. It would expose those who rail against him for what they really are...bought and paid for politicians not public servants put in place to represent the people they supposedly serve. So Ralph really has nothing to lose and everything to gain by putting his voice out there and giving the people some real choice in this democracy we like to brag so much about. He's spreading awareness, showing people what it really takes to be an active citizen and he's allowing people who didn't have an option to express their voice and concerns before to actually have someone they can feel good about getting behind. This is how progress is made and apathy is replaced with hope...and it doesn't all ride on winning or losing...it rides on making waves that spread and catch on to people who didn't realize it before. Nader's not trying to be a hero....he already is a hero without running for president and subjecting himself to this constant stream of criticism and petty insults. It appears much more selfless to me because for him doing what he feels is right and standing up for his country in order to try to make it a better place all comes before his legacy and all the recognition/respect he has earned in the past. He subjects all that to being tarnished and downplayed in order to keep fighting the good fight. And I can't think of a much more admirable and selfless route for him to take.

Abookamongstthemany

VictoryGin wrote:

and that right there is why i think that is also the safe way to play it. while some may think they're so honorable, they're able to sit on the throne of self-righteousness, especially once the acknowledgment is made that they're not going to win. in the end they won't really have to be accountable in a way. they can say that they stayed 100% true to their beliefs and blogged and posted about it. and once that election happens, they're in the clear. they can continue hating on president obama.

more radical beliefs are absolutely needed in this society. but this isn't the way to accomplish these goals.

So what would be the point in supporting something I don't believe in just because that said person will probably win? I don't get that at all.

Yay, the person I voted for won but I don't like what they stand for in the least....let the progress rush in! What have I accomplished here exactly?

And what do you mean 'self righteous'? Standing behind my ideals? Most of the people I've admired throughout history have done exactly that.

Abookamongstthemany

Rats of Multa wrote:

hmm. true Ralph is and has been in a position readily equipped to try and build a third political party i America, but... if you realize that the party-system is the basic corruption in the first place why would you want to waste time building anything in relation to that system?

i'm not saying this is Ralph Nader's secret alibi or anything, but building a new party and trying to win power within today's political environment is a bit unlikely. or maybe i'm just a pessimist..?

that's exactly why I registered as an independent. Parties always corrupt once they gain power and I view that as the problem not the answer to it.

Urban Hiker

LoveRock333 wrote:

The only problem is, you have to vote for Nader to show that his policies carry weight. If too many vote for Nader, he might (hypothetically, anyway) win. Which is bad, because he's not a leader.

Ralph Nader has been a leader his entire career. He has earned the admiration of many who have worked under him (including several lawyers working pro bono) to help achieve his goals.
He has worked with teams to publish book after book on different health and safety hazards while pushing a myriad of legislative actions through the government.

He is a leader, just look behind him---> http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/photocredit/achievers/nad0-001


And please, watch An Unreasonable Man.

Urban Hiker

VictoryGin wrote:

and that right there is why i think that is also the safe way to play it. while some may think they're so honorable, they're able to sit on the throne of self-righteousness, especially once the acknowledgment is made that they're not going to win. in the end they won't really have to be accountable in a way. they can say that they stayed 100% true to their beliefs and blogged and posted about it. and once that election happens, they're in the clear. they can continue hating on president obama.

more radical beliefs are absolutely needed in this society. but this isn't the way to accomplish these goals.

I disagree with your assessment of people who are not main stream voters.
Regardless of who ends up in office we still need to watch what they do and speak up when the elected do not do what we feel is right. Call it Obama hating, but I see as part of civic action. It doesn't end after the election.

How many people here have ever interviewed excellently and subsequently been hired for a job? How many of those who answered yes were allowed to do the job as they saw fit without answering to anyone, getting any performance reviews or being called out for any mistakes?

I see our elected officials as employees hired by the public. We need to keep tabs on them - let them now when they are performing well and let them have it when they completely fuck things up.

angelica

VictoryGin wrote:

LoveRock333 wrote:

Holding on to your ideals about how you should go about is kinda selfish if you know that its not going to get you into a position to make a difference.

and that right there is why i think that is also the safe way to play it. while some may think they're so honorable, they're able to sit on the throne of self-righteousness, especially once the acknowledgment is made that they're not going to win. in the end they won't really have to be accountable in a way. they can say that they stayed 100% true to their beliefs and blogged and posted about it. and once that election happens, they're in the clear. they can continue hating on president obama.

more radical beliefs are absolutely needed in this society. but this isn't the way to accomplish these goals.

This, my friends, is the basis of human imbalance at this point in time.

You can't make a difference when you don't have true inner balance and integrity. You live by an ego-script that you are "making a difference" all the while creating a negative backlash you will learn by.

El_Kabong

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

I'm sorry, I just don't see becoming part of the problem as anyway to change the problem. All I see is what's being proposed by the 2 major parties as piling more of the same old problems on for us to have to deal with for even longer. If we are talking change then we need to actually start seeing how this change will come about. If not then it's nothing more than a word. All the policies proposed by the mainstream parties are all part of a corrupt system whose goal is maintain power and there is no change in that. We need to do away with the whole system of corruption to really start seeing change. As of now it's merely equates to tossing cheap, tiny pieces of candy out to the crowd from a grand float on a parade route. These pieces of cheap candy only work to appease the populace when actually we should be demanding more from our government and letting them know we are paying attention and this is not acceptable. The Democratic party is nothing more than an illusion of an opposition party so it doesn't become too blatantly obvious how we are really ruled by a dictatorship where all ideas outside their narrow scope are excluded constantly and immediately labeled 'unrealistic'. The only realistic ideas are the ones they approve for us. Playing this same corrupt game says yes, this is acceptable and this is the best we can do. People like Ralph Nader don't believe this is the best we can do for one second. So they go about trying to bring change in a different manner because it's more than apparent change isn't coming by the pragmatic approach you seem content with either. It just works to rationalize keeping a bad system in place indefinitely. Where does it end? When do we get something better? Nader uses his strong, articulate voice and years of experience and knowledge to try the best he can to influence the system and the candidates running. Does he believe he'll win come November? No, of course not. But it would be an incredible thing if he did? Sure, why not? I don't see how it could be much worse than one of the mainstream phonies winning. They'll win and do next to nothing to put this country in the direction it should be headed....so no change really. If Nader won, he'll meet tons of resistance from inside the government and all the special interests really running the show BUT he'll have the will of the people on his side who DO support his policies and know he stands for REAL change. It would expose those who rail against him for what they really are...bought and paid for politicians not public servants put in place to represent the people they supposedly serve. So Ralph really has nothing to lose and everything to gain by putting his voice out there and giving the people some real choice in this democracy we like to brag so much about. He's spreading awareness, showing people what it really takes to be an active citizen and he's allowing people who didn't have an option to express their voice and concerns before to actually have someone they can feel good about getting behind. This is how progress is made and apathy is replaced with hope...and it doesn't all ride on winning or losing...it rides on making waves that spread and catch on to people who didn't realize it before. Nader's not trying to be a hero....he already is a hero without running for president and subjecting himself to this constant stream of criticism and petty insults. It appears much more selfless to me because for him doing what he feels is right and standing up for his country in order to try to make it a better place all comes before his legacy and all the recognition/respect he has earned in the past. He subjects all that to being tarnished and downplayed in order to keep fighting the good fight. And I can't think of a much more admirable and selfless route for him to take.

Abookamongstthemany 08!!!!!!

Abookamongstthemany

El_Kabong wrote:

Abookamongstthemany 08!!!!!!

As president I promise to next time break it down into paragraphs.

Ralph is encouraging people to be active citizens in this democracy and inspiring them to become lifetime activists for change. To me that's much more important and even vital to this country's progressive movement than spending time building political parties which by their very nature will fail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjevEGOglV0

decides2dream

angelica wrote:

This, my friends, is the basis of human imbalance at this point in time.

You can't make a difference when you don't have true inner balance and integrity. You live by an ego-script that you are "making a difference" all the while creating a negative backlash you will learn by.

and that's quite an assumption/opinion. nothing more, nothing less.

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Ralph is encouraging people to be active citizens in this democracy and inspiring them to become lifetime activists for change. To me that's much more important and even vital to this country's progressive movement than spending time building political parties which by their very nature will fail.

i agree with most of this. i think nader has and does all these things. i do not agree with any ideas/concepts of building 'political parties' per se....but sure, i do think one does need a base of unity. i don't know what a better system would be than the party system, and also agree we need viable parties outside of the main two and am happy there ARE candidates outside of that, working for change. it IS needed. i just wish at times that many of these truly intelligent, progressive minds could somehow build a better/stronger platform, and it does seem having a viable political party might do just that. i certainly don't have any answers there. i just think there ARE many great minds out there, nader included, who i would love to see more involved, get to have an even bigger influence, etc.....and that doesn't necessarily have to occur only by running/becoming president. so while it may seem unnecssary/futile to build a new, viable and strong political party...it may just be what other candidates need. dunno......

sweetpotato

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

But Nader himself will tell you he's stubborn as a mule on acid.

gee, maybe that should be his campaign slogan.

it's exactly what we want in a president. :rolleyes:

Urban Hiker

sweetpotato wrote:

gee, maybe that should be his campaign slogan.

it's exactly what we want in a president. :rolleyes:

Some call it stubbornness, others may call it tenacity. Either way it's helped him get some pretty tough legislation passed. And even when the chips are down, this man keeps truckin'.

I appreciate it when people don't give up the good fight just because things get tough.

And the acid comment. Well that's called a sense of humor. If Nader had ever taken acid GM, et al would have been all over that.

Rhinocerous Surprise

sweetpotato wrote:

gee, maybe that should be his campaign slogan.

it's exactly what we want in a president. :rolleyes:

I love that from a multi-page thread, you pull one line that was obviously a joke, and use that to try to disparage Nader. Reams of stuff have been written about Nader's potential as a president, but you can't tackle that... You have to single out the "mule on acid" line. :rolleyes:

VictoryGin

angelica wrote:

This, my friends, is the basis of human imbalance at this point in time.

You can't make a difference when you don't have true inner balance and integrity. You live by an ego-script that you are "making a difference" all the while creating a negative backlash you will learn by.

fascinating. you have never met me. you have absolutely no idea what i do for my community and the work i have done for federal policies as well in an effort to affect change. and you have the nerve to tell me i don't have true inner balance and integrity? who the fuck do you think you are? i can tell you i do a lot more than post psychobabble bullshit on a band's website in an effort to engage in american politics. i'd call you a pompous asshole, but my inner Truth says i can come up with better.

sweetpotato

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

I love that from a multi-page thread, you pull one line that was obviously a joke, and use that to try to disparage Nader. Reams of stuff have been written about Nader's potential as a president, but you can't tackle that... You have to single out the "mule on acid" line. :rolleyes:

yes, rhino... surprise! i was also making a joke. further proof that you guys have lost touch with your ability to laugh, esp at yourselves. maybe that's what makes you the perfect nader supporter.

do you really think that i think he's on acid? >slaps forehead< good grief.

Rhinocerous Surprise

sweetpotato wrote:

yes, rhino... surprise! i was also making a joke. further proof that you guys have lost touch with your ability to laugh, esp at yourselves. maybe that's what makes you the perfect nader supporter.

do you really think that i think he's on acid? >slaps forehead< good grief.

I took your post as a quip about the stubborness, more than the acid. Besides, I never said Nader took acid - I just said he was as stubborn as a mule who did.

Urban Hiker

sweetpotato wrote:

yes, rhino... surprise! i was also making a joke. further proof that you guys have lost touch with your ability to laugh, esp at yourselves. maybe that's what makes you the perfect nader supporter.

do you really think that i think he's on acid? >slaps forehead< good grief.

Hey sweets,

Sorry to hear you've missing out on some of the banter around here lately. Some of it is pure gold hilarity.

For instance...

From: http://forums.pearljam.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5507750

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Nice.

This election should have a ironic, pun-laden cheese metal soundtrack!

Hilary Clinton's theme: Unskinny Bopular Vote by Poison
Obama's theme: I Wan' Barack by Twisted Sister
McCain's theme: Youth Gone Wild by Skid Row
The Demmiecrats' theme: We're Just Gonna Fake It by Twisted Sister
The Republicans' theme: (You've Gotta) Fight For The White Man's Party by the Beastie Boys
The voting process theme: Cherry Piebold by Warrant

The last song on the album would be Obama singing Winds of Change, but at the end, he just starts cackling maniacally.

I put too much thought into that.

Senses of humor are abound and sometimes we just can't stop cracking ourselves up.

Feel free to join in. Though, sometimes it's hard to read the tone of a message as joking w/o the appropriate emoticon. Just a tip.

Rhinocerous Surprise

Urban Hiker wrote:

Hey sweets,

Sorry to hear you've missing out on some of the banter around here lately. Some of it is pure gold hilarity.

For instance...

From: http://forums.pearljam.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5507750




Senses of humor are abound and sometimes we just can't stop cracking ourselves up.

Feel free to join in. Though, sometimes it's hard to read the tone of a message as joking w/o the appropriate emoticon. Just a tip.

To be fair, I should add Nader's theme to that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2OR6Kjo5m4

Urban Hiker

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

To be fair, I should add Nader's theme to that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2OR6Kjo5m4

That is PERFECT!!!

I have such a soft spot for Nader though, that this is my song for him: http://youtube.com/watch?v=mlsitMRQAdA

Rhinocerous Surprise

Urban Hiker wrote:

That is PERFECT!!!

I have such a soft spot for Nader though, that this is my song for him: http://youtube.com/watch?v=mlsitMRQAdA

Can't beat Ol' Blue Eyes.

Might be a little out of place on an 80's cheese metal album though.

Urban Hiker

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Can't beat Ol' Blue Eyes.

Might be a little out of place on an 80's cheese metal album though.

But he made it to his 80's!

Maybe it could be the Easter Egg bonus track, just to make people go, "WTF!"