it's exactly what we want in a president. :rolleyes:
Some call it stubbornness, others may call it tenacity. Either way it's helped him get some pretty tough legislation passed. And even when the chips are down, this man keeps truckin'.
I appreciate it when people don't give up the good fight just because things get tough.
And the acid comment. Well that's called a sense of humor. If Nader had ever taken acid GM, et al would have been all over that.
Walking can be a real trip
***********************
"We've laid the groundwork. It's like planting the seeds. And next year, it's spring." - Nader
***********************
Prepare for tending to your garden, America.
it's exactly what we want in a president. :rolleyes:
I love that from a multi-page thread, you pull one line that was obviously a joke, and use that to try to disparage Nader. Reams of stuff have been written about Nader's potential as a president, but you can't tackle that... You have to single out the "mule on acid" line. :rolleyes:
Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
This, my friends, is the basis of human imbalance at this point in time.
You can't make a difference when you don't have true inner balance and integrity. You live by an ego-script that you are "making a difference" all the while creating a negative backlash you will learn by.
fascinating. you have never met me. you have absolutely no idea what i do for my community and the work i have done for federal policies as well in an effort to affect change. and you have the nerve to tell me i don't have true inner balance and integrity? who the fuck do you think you are? i can tell you i do a lot more than post psychobabble bullshit on a band's website in an effort to engage in american politics. i'd call you a pompous asshole, but my inner Truth says i can come up with better.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
I love that from a multi-page thread, you pull one line that was obviously a joke, and use that to try to disparage Nader. Reams of stuff have been written about Nader's potential as a president, but you can't tackle that... You have to single out the "mule on acid" line. :rolleyes:
yes, rhino... surprise! i was also making a joke. further proof that you guys have lost touch with your ability to laugh, esp at yourselves. maybe that's what makes you the perfect nader supporter.
do you really think that i think he's on acid? >slaps forehead< good grief.
"Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States, Barack Obama."
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
yes, rhino... surprise! i was also making a joke. further proof that you guys have lost touch with your ability to laugh, esp at yourselves. maybe that's what makes you the perfect nader supporter.
do you really think that i think he's on acid? >slaps forehead< good grief.
I took your post as a quip about the stubborness, more than the acid. Besides, I never said Nader took acid - I just said he was as stubborn as a mule who did.
Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
yes, rhino... surprise! i was also making a joke. further proof that you guys have lost touch with your ability to laugh, esp at yourselves. maybe that's what makes you the perfect nader supporter.
do you really think that i think he's on acid? >slaps forehead< good grief.
Hey sweets,
Sorry to hear you've missing out on some of the banter around here lately. Some of it is pure gold hilarity.
This election should have a ironic, pun-laden cheese metal soundtrack!
Hilary Clinton's theme: Unskinny Bopular Vote by Poison
Obama's theme: I Wan' Barack by Twisted Sister
McCain's theme: Youth Gone Wild by Skid Row
The Demmiecrats' theme: We're Just Gonna Fake It by Twisted Sister
The Republicans' theme: (You've Gotta) Fight For The White Man's Party by the Beastie Boys
The voting process theme: Cherry Piebold by Warrant
The last song on the album would be Obama singing Winds of Change, but at the end, he just starts cackling maniacally.
I put too much thought into that.
Senses of humor are abound and sometimes we just can't stop cracking ourselves up.
Feel free to join in. Though, sometimes it's hard to read the tone of a message as joking w/o the appropriate emoticon. Just a tip.
Walking can be a real trip
***********************
"We've laid the groundwork. It's like planting the seeds. And next year, it's spring." - Nader
***********************
Prepare for tending to your garden, America.
Walking can be a real trip
***********************
"We've laid the groundwork. It's like planting the seeds. And next year, it's spring." - Nader
***********************
Prepare for tending to your garden, America.
Might be a little out of place on an 80's cheese metal album though.
But he made it to his 80's!
Maybe it could be the Easter Egg bonus track, just to make people go, "WTF!"
Walking can be a real trip
***********************
"We've laid the groundwork. It's like planting the seeds. And next year, it's spring." - Nader
***********************
Prepare for tending to your garden, America.
So the system has fallen apart. You have to play the game in order to change the rules. No one is going to just waltz in, get elected President, fix the system and waltz out. Life, politics, whatever - Nothing is that simple. All those people you mentioned, they all had and still have some great policies, I agree. But if playing the game gets a better outcome in the long run, isn't it better for everyone that way? Holding on to your ideals about how you should go about is kinda selfish if you know that its not going to get you into a position to make a difference. Admirable, yes. Honourable, certainly. But the world needs change, and the only way it can happen is from within its already corrupt system. If you can't recognise that, then you won't get far trying to change things. That's how Nader isn't pragmatic. He isn't doing what needs to be done to make a necessary change. Instead, he's out there on his own trying to be a hero, as it were. But that's not how it works. I wish it did myself, but it doesn't. That doesn't mean he or anyone else should resign to defeat, just go about it another way. Do you see what I mean?
i really like this post.
i know many may disagree...but i really think that's it. baby-steps. i also know many think that's been going on for a long time. perhaps. personally i think the last 8 years we've taken giant steps backwards, spinning our wheels. i think as a nation, baby steps are the way to go. of course, just imo. even without that, i just don't know if i see nadar as *leader*.....full of ideas...advisor...whatever....but leader? i've never thought that. again, just my opinion. there are soooo many ways to affect change, one does not have to always run for president to try and do so. my 0.02.
i really like this post.
i know many may disagree...but i really think that's it. basby-steps. i also know many think that's been going on for a long time. perhaps. personally i think the last 8 years we've taken giant sdteps backwards, spinning our wheels. i think as a nation, baby steps are the way to go. of course, just imo. even without that, i just don't know if i see nadar as *leader*.....full of ideas...advisor...whatever....but leader? i've never thought that. again, just my opinion. there are soooo many ways to affect change, one does not have to always run for president to try and do so. my 0.02.
If Ralph Nader isn't a leader then I don't know who could be considered even close to one out of the other candidates. And could you list me the reasons you view any of these other candidates as leadership material?
even without that, i just don't know if i see nadar as *leader*.....full of ideas...advisor...whatever....but leader? i've never thought that. again, just my opinion. there are soooo many ways to affect change, one does not have to always run for president to try and do so. my 0.02.
I'm curious as well, d2d. Why don't you see Nader as a leader?
Should we have an Unreasonable Man screening at the MSG pre-party?
Walking can be a real trip
***********************
"We've laid the groundwork. It's like planting the seeds. And next year, it's spring." - Nader
***********************
Prepare for tending to your garden, America.
just caught the last 2 posts and must be off, but a quick response:
firstly, i think i should rephrase, i don't see him as a world leader, as a president. certainly it is obvious the man can and does lead. however, in my mind, i do not see him as a unifier, nor do i see him as a man willing to compromise for the greater good. probably why many admire him...but also why i personally don't see him as a leader. as to anyone else, i didn't think this thread was about anyone but nader. i see no point into getting into who or why i think one or the other may be a world leader. i am not trying to convince anyone of my pov. i truly identified with the points of loverock's posts...and it resonates with me. that is all. i REALLY like many of the points made in that post.
just caught the last 2 posts and must be off, but a quick response:
firstly, i think i should rephrase, i don't see him as a world leader, as a president. certainly it is obvious the man can and does lead. however, in my mind, i do not see him as a unifier, nor do i see him as a man willing to compromise for the greater good. probably why many admire him...but also why i personally don't see him as a leader. as to anyone else, i didn't think this thread was about anyone but nader. i see no point into getting into who or why i think one or the other may be a world leader. i am not trying to convince anyone of my pov. i truly identified with the points of loverock's posts...and it resonates with me. that is all. i REALLY like many of the points made in that post.
have a good night all!
oh, okay then.
I just thought that since you didn't see Nader as a 'world leader' that you might have some point of reference to other candidates that you do see that trait in...or maybe you don't see that trait in any of them? I think it's very fair to bring up the other candidate's when talking about the pros and cons of one of them because well...obviously, they are running against each other.
I think Nader's platform on foreign policy and visits to these areas in crisis highlight what a great world leader he would make. Plus, he always pushes diplomatic and humanitarian solutions and causes.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
oh, okay then.
I just thought that since you didn't see Nader as a 'world leader' that you might have some point of reference to other candidates that you do see that trait in...or maybe you don't see that trait in any of them? I think it's very fair to bring up the other candidate's when talking about the pros and cons of one of them because well...obviously, they are running against each other.
I think Nader's platform on foreign policy and visits to these areas in crisis highlight what a great world leader he would make. Plus, he always pushes diplomatic and humanitarian solutions and causes
i'd like to hear an answer to that, as well. i don't understand how ppl see obama as a leader...sorry, "world leader" but not nader. what has obama done other than win an uncontested senate race and then miss nearly 1/2 of the votes?
Nader's been involved in foreign policy issues for years as well as all the achievements he's had inside the US. and Nader does it for the ppl, b/c he sees it as the right thing to do...not for power, money....he actually fights for the ppl. maybe that's why he can't be a 'world leader' b/c he won't toe the corporate agenda at the expense of everyone else?
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
i really like this post.
i know many may disagree...but i really think that's it. baby-steps. i also know many think that's been going on for a long time. perhaps. personally i think the last 8 years we've taken giant steps backwards, spinning our wheels. i think as a nation, baby steps are the way to go. of course, just imo. even without that, i just don't know if i see nadar as *leader*.....full of ideas...advisor...whatever....but leader? i've never thought that. again, just my opinion. there are soooo many ways to affect change, one does not have to always run for president to try and do so. my 0.02.
i agree, and i also agree with loverocks' post-
Originally Posted by LoveRock333
"So the system has fallen apart. You have to play the game in order to change the rules. No one is going to just waltz in, get elected President, fix the system and waltz out. Life, politics, whatever - Nothing is that simple. All those people you mentioned, they all had and still have some great policies, I agree. But if playing the game gets a better outcome in the long run, isn't it better for everyone that way? Holding on to your ideals about how you should go about is kinda selfish if you know that its not going to get you into a position to make a difference. Admirable, yes. Honourable, certainly. But the world needs change, and the only way it can happen is from within its already corrupt system. If you can't recognise that, then you won't get far trying to change things. That's how Nader isn't pragmatic. He isn't doing what needs to be done to make a necessary change. Instead, he's out there on his own trying to be a hero, as it were. But that's not how it works. I wish it did myself, but it doesn't. That doesn't mean he or anyone else should resign to defeat, just go about it another way. Do you see what I mean?"
i've been saying much the same thing since nader first threw his name in the hat. i hope loverocks doesn't get the kooky pm's i was treated to as a result of voicing these same thoughts, tho!
"Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States, Barack Obama."
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
Originally Posted by LoveRock333
"So the system has fallen apart. You have to play the game in order to change the rules. No one is going to just waltz in, get elected President, fix the system and waltz out. Life, politics, whatever - Nothing is that simple. All those people you mentioned, they all had and still have some great policies, I agree. But if playing the game gets a better outcome in the long run, isn't it better for everyone that way? Holding on to your ideals about how you should go about is kinda selfish if you know that its not going to get you into a position to make a difference. Admirable, yes. Honourable, certainly. But the world needs change, and the only way it can happen is from within its already corrupt system. If you can't recognise that, then you won't get far trying to change things. That's how Nader isn't pragmatic. He isn't doing what needs to be done to make a necessary change. Instead, he's out there on his own trying to be a hero, as it were. But that's not how it works. I wish it did myself, but it doesn't. That doesn't mean he or anyone else should resign to defeat, just go about it another way. Do you see what I mean?"
i've been saying much the same thing since nader first threw his name in the hat. i hope loverocks doesn't get the kooky pm's i was treated to as a result of voicing these same thoughts, tho!
I know I pmed you about the manner in which you post on here not about your criticism of Nader but whateves.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I think it's funny she thinks there's a problem with the fact she criticizes Nader. Rather than the manner in which she conducts herself and then straps a big 'ole wooden cross to her back; as she martyrs herself.
I just thought that since you didn't see Nader as a 'world leader' that you might have some point of reference to other candidates that you do see that trait in...or maybe you don't see that trait in any of them? I think it's very fair to bring up the other candidate's when talking about the pros and cons of one of them because well...obviously, they are running against each other.
I think Nader's platform on foreign policy and visits to these areas in crisis highlight what a great world leader he would make. Plus, he always pushes diplomatic and humanitarian solutions and causes.
i do not see him as a unifier, nor do i see him as a man willing to compromise for the greater good. probably why many admire him...but also why i personally don't see him as a leader.
i don't expect others to share my pov. that's my view of him. i really do not see him as a man who is willing to hammer things out, to compromise. i did not bring up the other candidates b/c i am not judging nader in comparison to the other candidates in that assessment, but merely on himself. it absolutely makes sense to compare/contrast candidates to assess if they align with your pov, your ideals, etc. i am not doing that here. i was/am simply commenting on nader all on his own. in that sense, it is immaterial what i think of anyone else.
and i say again, i think loverock made some truly excellent points in regards to the topic of this thread. THAt is what i was truly commenting on.
i don't expect others to share my pov. that's my view of him. i really do not see him as a man who is willing to hammer things out, to compromise. i did not bring up the other candidates b/c i am not judging nader in comparison to the other candidates in that assessment, but merely on himself. it absolutely makes sense to compare/contrast candidates to assess if they align with your pov, your ideals, etc. i am not doing that here. i was/am simply commenting on nader all on his own. in that sense, it is immaterial what i think of anyone else.
and i say again, i think loverock made some truly excellent points in regards to the topic of this thread. THAt is what i was truly commenting on.
Nader has offered to compromise with the Dem candidates time and time again. And he has accomplished so much throughout his career that I'm sure he has compromised to get a lot of that stuff done....no one is that good at getting their way all the time. So I view this assessment of him to be baseless....just my pov.
Is there anyone else here who might point out where the other candidates have shown leadership abilities in the past? And does anyone here think Obama, for instance, has shown leadership qualities when he has missed close to half the votes in the Senate and hasn't piled up too many accomplishments that I can name with his time there?
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
finally went back to read this thread in it's entirety, read a post here or there along the way when i've been about, and nothing more. what can i say, tis the sloooowwww season at work, also tour time ...so just more time here, period.
anyhoo, getting back to the heart of this thread, again, i seem to agree with many of loverock's posts. i think so much of this is *it*. i find no fault with nader running at all - in fact i do see it as a GOOD thing for many reasons, nor for anyone backing him, supporting him, etc. he does have some great ideas. but yes, i have to say i honestly agree and believe he has no intention of being president, being elected...and uses it as a platform to get his ideas out there. nothing wrong with that necessarily, unless you really DO want to BE president and get to affect a lot of that change. who knows though, perhaps just doing so again and again IS getting his ideas enough attention that in time they WILL get implemented? i don't know.
So what you're saying is that he's running solely on principle, knows he'll fail, knows he's stubborn.... Well, yeah, he has all the makings of a great politician right there (note the intense sarcasm).
He makes no sense, if he really wanted to go about being in charge he'd do it differently, but I doubt he wants to be president at all. Underdog propaganda... When someone is bound to lose, their policies and what they stand for get more attention. It doesn't help their campaign but it puts their policies in a different (more acceptable) light. He doesn't want to run the country, he just wants people to realise it can be done differently. Which proves my point, he wouldn't make a good leader, politician or anything. But I guess that's not what he's trying to do. He's not after votes, just the attention the presidential race gives his ideas.
perhaps that alone is a good enough reason. however, i really think it would be better if he did have more traditional backing, 'played the game' more so to speak....if he TRULY wants the presidency. i am not suggesting anyone is throwing their votes away or other such nonsense, it's ridiculous. however, i would personally prefer a candidate who i actually thought had a genuine chance of winning, and thus being able to get some of their ideas into ACTION. obviously...i have no answers there. for a man as obviously intelligent as nader though, i just would think *more* could come of it. i read many times that it's 'the dems race to lose'......in the past, and now......well i hold that same standard to ALL candidates. so i just don't think nader is doing enough to convince people he IS the best choice, and maybe building a party, or if he were a younger man working his way up the political ladder not going only for the brass ring, etc.....might've gotten him there if that's truly where he wants to be. who knows.......? definitely would be cool to see him get a nice percentage of votes. maybe running again and again is his version of 'baby steps' for change.....i'd love to see more viable 3rd party candidates, more viable 3rd parties.....period...if that's the only way this nation will accept others outside the 2 party system. nader or not....i hope to see many more viable 3rd party candidates in the future, and perhaps his runs will help that along.
Walking can be a real trip
***********************
"We've laid the groundwork. It's like planting the seeds. And next year, it's spring." - Nader
***********************
Prepare for tending to your garden, America.
maybe running again and again is his version of 'baby steps' for change.....i'd love to see more viable 3rd party candidates, more viable 3rd parties.....period...if that's the only way this nation will accept others outside the 2 party system. nader or not....i hope to see many more viable 3rd party candidates in the future, and perhaps his runs will help that along.
That is one of the objectives of his campaign. He wants to get people from different causes to come together to support one another with their civic goals. He's not just an activist, he's an advocate with a tremendous belief in and respect for the power of the people.
Walking can be a real trip
***********************
"We've laid the groundwork. It's like planting the seeds. And next year, it's spring." - Nader
***********************
Prepare for tending to your garden, America.
i don't expect others to share my pov. that's my view of him. i really do not see him as a man who is willing to hammer things out, to compromise. i did not bring up the other candidates b/c i am not judging nader in comparison to the other candidates in that assessment, but merely on himself. it absolutely makes sense to compare/contrast candidates to assess if they align with your pov, your ideals, etc. i am not doing that here. i was/am simply commenting on nader all on his own. in that sense, it is immaterial what i think of anyone else.
to compromise and hammer things out?
i dont see any main-stream candidates willing to compromise and hammer things out with Nader! the Democrapublicans are all too alike in wanting to simply avoid any fringe views, opinions, and ideas, since any out-side thinking could [and most likely would] upset the balancing act of corruption that fosters the survival and dominance of this 2-party fascism [called "American Democracy"].
this election is making me sad... :(
we don’t know just where our bones will rest,
to dust i guess,
forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..
That is one of the objectives of his campaign. He wants to get people from different causes to come together to support one another with their civic goals. He's not just an activist, he's an advocate with a tremendous belief in and respect for the power of the people.
and it is a GREAt objective. i just would also think actually winning an election so that you can actually INACT some of your ideas would be most desired.
i dont see any main-stream candidates willing to compromise and hammer things out with Nader! the Democrapublicans are all too alike in wanting to simply avoid any fringe views, opinions, and ideas, since any out-side thinking could [and most likely would] upset the balancing act of corruption that fosters the survival and dominance of this 2-party fascism [called "American Democracy"].
this election is making me sad...
i am not looking for nader to 'hammer things out and compromise' with other candidates......i am looking further down the road with the hypothesis of IF he were elected president, i do not see him as someone willing to hammer things out, compromise, when it comes to policy change and any challenges to his ideas. i do not see him as a president. i simply do not see him as that kind of leader. i think he is an excellent activist, i think he plays a very important role in bringing ideas to light, questioning....would make an excellent advisor, full of ideas.....but not president. i just don't think he has the correct nature of compromise for it. and i will temper with that in NO way do i think bush was ever even remotely president material either. just b/c others may vote in candidates i totally disapporve of does not mean i agree there. now you want to disagree with my assessment of nader, fair enough, your right to do so. it Is just my pov. my opinion in no way should add to your saddness for this election.
personally, i truly thought this tread was NOT about 'this election' and more about what nader, or other outside candidates...can/should do to truly BE electable, and thus truly creating/supporting a viable third party. obviously, it's too late to change his game-plan now, and given his age and now 4? runs for office, i don't see him having steam for running again - although who knows? but he could apply his lessons learned to help OTHER candidates in the future and/or other candidates, or 3 parties, may well learn from it all. there absolutely is positive outcome to some degree of his running, win or no win. i just think many, myself included, would actually like to see *more*...as in more REAL 3rd party choices. some may argue against the party system, so be it....but right now, it's all we've got and i for 1 don't see viable alternatives. someone already said a lot more eloquently, you have to be in the system to change it.
i dont see any main-stream candidates willing to compromise and hammer things out with Nader! the Democrapublicans are all too alike in wanting to simply avoid any fringe views, opinions, and ideas, since any out-side thinking could [and most likely would] upset the balancing act of corruption that fosters the survival and dominance of this 2-party fascism [called "American Democracy"].
this election is making me sad... :(
Great points
Also, what do you think of Matt Gonzalez? I find him pretty impressive and think he might definitely be playing a large role in the future of the progressive movement.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Comments
Some call it stubbornness, others may call it tenacity. Either way it's helped him get some pretty tough legislation passed. And even when the chips are down, this man keeps truckin'.
I appreciate it when people don't give up the good fight just because things get tough.
And the acid comment. Well that's called a sense of humor. If Nader had ever taken acid GM, et al would have been all over that.
***********************
"We've laid the groundwork. It's like planting the seeds. And next year, it's spring." - Nader
***********************
Prepare for tending to your garden, America.
I love that from a multi-page thread, you pull one line that was obviously a joke, and use that to try to disparage Nader. Reams of stuff have been written about Nader's potential as a president, but you can't tackle that... You have to single out the "mule on acid" line. :rolleyes:
fascinating. you have never met me. you have absolutely no idea what i do for my community and the work i have done for federal policies as well in an effort to affect change. and you have the nerve to tell me i don't have true inner balance and integrity? who the fuck do you think you are? i can tell you i do a lot more than post psychobabble bullshit on a band's website in an effort to engage in american politics. i'd call you a pompous asshole, but my inner Truth says i can come up with better.
cross the river to the eastside
yes, rhino... surprise! i was also making a joke. further proof that you guys have lost touch with your ability to laugh, esp at yourselves. maybe that's what makes you the perfect nader supporter.
do you really think that i think he's on acid? >slaps forehead< good grief.
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
I took your post as a quip about the stubborness, more than the acid. Besides, I never said Nader took acid - I just said he was as stubborn as a mule who did.
Hey sweets,
Sorry to hear you've missing out on some of the banter around here lately. Some of it is pure gold hilarity.
For instance...
From: http://forums.pearljam.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5507750
Senses of humor are abound and sometimes we just can't stop cracking ourselves up.
Feel free to join in. Though, sometimes it's hard to read the tone of a message as joking w/o the appropriate emoticon. Just a tip.
***********************
"We've laid the groundwork. It's like planting the seeds. And next year, it's spring." - Nader
***********************
Prepare for tending to your garden, America.
To be fair, I should add Nader's theme to that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2OR6Kjo5m4
That is PERFECT!!!
I have such a soft spot for Nader though, that this is my song for him: http://youtube.com/watch?v=mlsitMRQAdA
***********************
"We've laid the groundwork. It's like planting the seeds. And next year, it's spring." - Nader
***********************
Prepare for tending to your garden, America.
Can't beat Ol' Blue Eyes.
Might be a little out of place on an 80's cheese metal album though.
But he made it to his 80's!
Maybe it could be the Easter Egg bonus track, just to make people go, "WTF!"
***********************
"We've laid the groundwork. It's like planting the seeds. And next year, it's spring." - Nader
***********************
Prepare for tending to your garden, America.
Or...
L.A Guns, Ratt, Warrant, Dokken and Cinderella all do a supergroup cover of it.
I'm getting carried away.
i really like this post.
i know many may disagree...but i really think that's it. baby-steps. i also know many think that's been going on for a long time. perhaps. personally i think the last 8 years we've taken giant steps backwards, spinning our wheels. i think as a nation, baby steps are the way to go. of course, just imo. even without that, i just don't know if i see nadar as *leader*.....full of ideas...advisor...whatever....but leader? i've never thought that. again, just my opinion. there are soooo many ways to affect change, one does not have to always run for president to try and do so. my 0.02.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
If Ralph Nader isn't a leader then I don't know who could be considered even close to one out of the other candidates. And could you list me the reasons you view any of these other candidates as leadership material?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_nader#Non-profit_organizations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_nader#Activism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_nader#Taking_on_the_automobile_industry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_nader#Recognition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_nader
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I'm curious as well, d2d. Why don't you see Nader as a leader?
Should we have an Unreasonable Man screening at the MSG pre-party?
***********************
"We've laid the groundwork. It's like planting the seeds. And next year, it's spring." - Nader
***********************
Prepare for tending to your garden, America.
firstly, i think i should rephrase, i don't see him as a world leader, as a president. certainly it is obvious the man can and does lead. however, in my mind, i do not see him as a unifier, nor do i see him as a man willing to compromise for the greater good. probably why many admire him...but also why i personally don't see him as a leader. as to anyone else, i didn't think this thread was about anyone but nader. i see no point into getting into who or why i think one or the other may be a world leader. i am not trying to convince anyone of my pov. i truly identified with the points of loverock's posts...and it resonates with me. that is all. i REALLY like many of the points made in that post.
have a good night all!
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
oh, okay then.
I just thought that since you didn't see Nader as a 'world leader' that you might have some point of reference to other candidates that you do see that trait in...or maybe you don't see that trait in any of them? I think it's very fair to bring up the other candidate's when talking about the pros and cons of one of them because well...obviously, they are running against each other.
I think Nader's platform on foreign policy and visits to these areas in crisis highlight what a great world leader he would make. Plus, he always pushes diplomatic and humanitarian solutions and causes.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
i'd like to hear an answer to that, as well. i don't understand how ppl see obama as a leader...sorry, "world leader" but not nader. what has obama done other than win an uncontested senate race and then miss nearly 1/2 of the votes?
Nader's been involved in foreign policy issues for years as well as all the achievements he's had inside the US. and Nader does it for the ppl, b/c he sees it as the right thing to do...not for power, money....he actually fights for the ppl. maybe that's why he can't be a 'world leader' b/c he won't toe the corporate agenda at the expense of everyone else?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
gee, thanks for the invite! :rolleyes:
if you guys can't pick up on the humor without visual aids, that's not my problem. maybe you should stick to picture books instead of novels, too.
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
i agree, and i also agree with loverocks' post-
Originally Posted by LoveRock333
"So the system has fallen apart. You have to play the game in order to change the rules. No one is going to just waltz in, get elected President, fix the system and waltz out. Life, politics, whatever - Nothing is that simple. All those people you mentioned, they all had and still have some great policies, I agree. But if playing the game gets a better outcome in the long run, isn't it better for everyone that way? Holding on to your ideals about how you should go about is kinda selfish if you know that its not going to get you into a position to make a difference. Admirable, yes. Honourable, certainly. But the world needs change, and the only way it can happen is from within its already corrupt system. If you can't recognise that, then you won't get far trying to change things. That's how Nader isn't pragmatic. He isn't doing what needs to be done to make a necessary change. Instead, he's out there on his own trying to be a hero, as it were. But that's not how it works. I wish it did myself, but it doesn't. That doesn't mean he or anyone else should resign to defeat, just go about it another way. Do you see what I mean?"
i've been saying much the same thing since nader first threw his name in the hat. i hope loverocks doesn't get the kooky pm's i was treated to as a result of voicing these same thoughts, tho!
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
Well good morning, sunshine
It's always a pleasure.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I know I pmed you about the manner in which you post on here not about your criticism of Nader but whateves.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Oh man, too funny.
as i said:
i don't expect others to share my pov. that's my view of him. i really do not see him as a man who is willing to hammer things out, to compromise. i did not bring up the other candidates b/c i am not judging nader in comparison to the other candidates in that assessment, but merely on himself. it absolutely makes sense to compare/contrast candidates to assess if they align with your pov, your ideals, etc. i am not doing that here. i was/am simply commenting on nader all on his own. in that sense, it is immaterial what i think of anyone else.
and i say again, i think loverock made some truly excellent points in regards to the topic of this thread. THAt is what i was truly commenting on.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Nader has offered to compromise with the Dem candidates time and time again. And he has accomplished so much throughout his career that I'm sure he has compromised to get a lot of that stuff done....no one is that good at getting their way all the time. So I view this assessment of him to be baseless....just my pov.
Is there anyone else here who might point out where the other candidates have shown leadership abilities in the past? And does anyone here think Obama, for instance, has shown leadership qualities when he has missed close to half the votes in the Senate and hasn't piled up too many accomplishments that I can name with his time there?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
anyhoo, getting back to the heart of this thread, again, i seem to agree with many of loverock's posts. i think so much of this is *it*. i find no fault with nader running at all - in fact i do see it as a GOOD thing for many reasons, nor for anyone backing him, supporting him, etc. he does have some great ideas. but yes, i have to say i honestly agree and believe he has no intention of being president, being elected...and uses it as a platform to get his ideas out there. nothing wrong with that necessarily, unless you really DO want to BE president and get to affect a lot of that change. who knows though, perhaps just doing so again and again IS getting his ideas enough attention that in time they WILL get implemented? i don't know.
perhaps that alone is a good enough reason. however, i really think it would be better if he did have more traditional backing, 'played the game' more so to speak....if he TRULY wants the presidency. i am not suggesting anyone is throwing their votes away or other such nonsense, it's ridiculous. however, i would personally prefer a candidate who i actually thought had a genuine chance of winning, and thus being able to get some of their ideas into ACTION. obviously...i have no answers there. for a man as obviously intelligent as nader though, i just would think *more* could come of it. i read many times that it's 'the dems race to lose'......in the past, and now......well i hold that same standard to ALL candidates. so i just don't think nader is doing enough to convince people he IS the best choice, and maybe building a party, or if he were a younger man working his way up the political ladder not going only for the brass ring, etc.....might've gotten him there if that's truly where he wants to be. who knows.......? definitely would be cool to see him get a nice percentage of votes. maybe running again and again is his version of 'baby steps' for change.....i'd love to see more viable 3rd party candidates, more viable 3rd parties.....period...if that's the only way this nation will accept others outside the 2 party system. nader or not....i hope to see many more viable 3rd party candidates in the future, and perhaps his runs will help that along.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Anytime, love. But, please be sure to RSVP, k?
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0DUD/is_2_23/ai_82879521
***********************
"We've laid the groundwork. It's like planting the seeds. And next year, it's spring." - Nader
***********************
Prepare for tending to your garden, America.
That is one of the objectives of his campaign. He wants to get people from different causes to come together to support one another with their civic goals. He's not just an activist, he's an advocate with a tremendous belief in and respect for the power of the people.
***********************
"We've laid the groundwork. It's like planting the seeds. And next year, it's spring." - Nader
***********************
Prepare for tending to your garden, America.
to compromise and hammer things out?
i dont see any main-stream candidates willing to compromise and hammer things out with Nader! the Democrapublicans are all too alike in wanting to simply avoid any fringe views, opinions, and ideas, since any out-side thinking could [and most likely would] upset the balancing act of corruption that fosters the survival and dominance of this 2-party fascism [called "American Democracy"].
this election is making me sad... :(
to dust i guess,
forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..
and it is a GREAt objective. i just would also think actually winning an election so that you can actually INACT some of your ideas would be most desired.
i am not looking for nader to 'hammer things out and compromise' with other candidates......i am looking further down the road with the hypothesis of IF he were elected president, i do not see him as someone willing to hammer things out, compromise, when it comes to policy change and any challenges to his ideas. i do not see him as a president. i simply do not see him as that kind of leader. i think he is an excellent activist, i think he plays a very important role in bringing ideas to light, questioning....would make an excellent advisor, full of ideas.....but not president. i just don't think he has the correct nature of compromise for it. and i will temper with that in NO way do i think bush was ever even remotely president material either. just b/c others may vote in candidates i totally disapporve of does not mean i agree there. now you want to disagree with my assessment of nader, fair enough, your right to do so. it Is just my pov. my opinion in no way should add to your saddness for this election.
personally, i truly thought this tread was NOT about 'this election' and more about what nader, or other outside candidates...can/should do to truly BE electable, and thus truly creating/supporting a viable third party. obviously, it's too late to change his game-plan now, and given his age and now 4? runs for office, i don't see him having steam for running again - although who knows? but he could apply his lessons learned to help OTHER candidates in the future and/or other candidates, or 3 parties, may well learn from it all. there absolutely is positive outcome to some degree of his running, win or no win. i just think many, myself included, would actually like to see *more*...as in more REAL 3rd party choices. some may argue against the party system, so be it....but right now, it's all we've got and i for 1 don't see viable alternatives. someone already said a lot more eloquently, you have to be in the system to change it.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Great points
Also, what do you think of Matt Gonzalez? I find him pretty impressive and think he might definitely be playing a large role in the future of the progressive movement.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde