Pearl Jam and Ron Paul??

2

Comments

  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    mammasan wrote:
    He is enlightened because you associate with his political beliefs. There are people out there who may think that George Bush is enlightened and he is surely not a candidate for the title of modern day marvel. It takes far more than being a nice genuine person to be considered a marvel in my book.

    And he has proven himself to be selfless, true and a man of principle. The things he has done in his career does put him waaay above the rest, imo. What has Bush done that could be seen in this way?
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    I guess you're surrounded by a world full of crazy willing participants called society.

    Not really. Right now I'm surrounded by a bunch of willing participants known as co-workers. I don't call them "society". I mostly call them by first name.
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Not really. Right now I'm surrounded by a bunch of willing participants known as co-workers. I don't call them "society". I mostly call them by first name.

    Oh, they don't pay taxes which pay for the guns to your head?
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    And he has proven himself to be selfless, true and a man of principle. The things he has done in his career does put him waaay above the rest, imo. What has Bush done that could be seen in this way?

    Your asking the wrong person because I believe Bush to be a complete ass, but it doesn't take a genius to know that there are still people out there that our loyal Bush supports and do view him that way. As far as Kucinich, there are politicians in Washington who have done as much as he has, not putting down his accomplishments, and are not hailed as modern day marvels. I respect Kucinich because he seems like a man of good principles and integrity but he is no marvel.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    mammasan wrote:
    Your asking the wrong person because I believe Bush to be a complete ass, but it doesn't take a genius to know that there are still people out there that our loyal Bush supports and do view him that way. As far as Kucinich, there are politicians in Washington who have done as much as he has, not putting down his accomplishments, and are not hailed as modern day marvels. I respect Kucinich because he seems like a man of good principles and integrity but he is no marvel.
    To spend 30 years in politics and remain a man of principles and integrity is a marvel in itself, no?
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    hippiemom wrote:
    To spend 30 years in politics and remain a man of principles and integrity is a marvel in itself, no?

    Very much so..and very few have done it.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    hippiemom wrote:
    To spend 30 years in politics and remain a man of principles and integrity is a marvel in itself, no?

    No it just means that we as Americans elect shitty politicians.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    mammasan wrote:
    No it just means that we as Americans elect shitty politicians.
    I have seen more than one good, decent person turn into a shitty politician as they climbed the ladder of political success. It is incredibly difficult to maintain your integrity in the system as it exists today. I think that Kucinich has definitely done it, and although I know much less about Ron Paul, that he may very well have done it too. And I do think it's a marvel.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    mammasan wrote:
    No
    So, irrespective of the people's votes, are you saying to remain in politics for 30 years and to remain true to your integrity is not exceptional?
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Oh, they don't pay taxes which pay for the guns to your head?

    They do pay taxes, although techinically speaking they really don't since I'm forced by law to withhold the money from their paychecks so they never even get it in the first place. But, regardless, this is where the "willing" part of your earlier statement goes out the window. Absent the law, I'd give them that money and I suspect most of them would keep it for their own purposes and choices.
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    angelica wrote:
    So, irrespective of the people's votes, are you saying to remain in politics for 30 years and to remain true to your integrity is not exceptional?

    What I am saying is that there are people of integrity and principle, like Kucinich and Ron Paul, who have run for office but are not elected. We could have a government with a larger amount of people like these two Congressman if we actually started giving a shit about the people we elect. These two men are not exceptional they are merely better than the rest if the crap holding office right now.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    hippiemom wrote:
    I have seen more than one good, decent person turn into a shitty politician as they climbed the ladder of political success. It is incredibly difficult to maintain your integrity in the system as it exists today. I think that Kucinich has definitely done it, and although I know much less about Ron Paul, that he may very well have done it too. And I do think it's a marvel.
    I still can't get over that Kucinich has done it. Or that it's even possible. It certainly renews my faith in the potential of the system and actually, the system, itself, as is, which is a BIG thing. And I haven't disagreed much, if at all with Ron Paul, either. Although, like you, I know much less about him.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    mammasan wrote:
    What I am saying is that there are people of integrity and principle, like Kucinich and Ron Paul, who have run for office but are not elected. We could have a government with a larger amount of people like these two Congressman if we actually started giving a shit about the people we elect. These two men are not exceptional they are merely better than the rest if the crap holding office right now.
    I believe that absolutely everything that ever happens is for a reason. I therefore believe that while it might not seem fair that all kinds of individuals with integrity did not "make it", I believe it's been for it's perfect reasons within the system. So, when someone not only makes it through those early stages, and further progresses throughout numerous years of hard work AND maintains their integrity, which is at a high level, I'm really quite absolutely MARVEL-ed. I just did not think it was possible at this point in time, really.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    angelica wrote:
    I believe that absolutely everything that ever happens is for a reason. I therefore believe that while it might not seem fair that all kinds of individuals with integrity did not "make it", I believe it's been for it's perfect reasons within the system. So, when someone not only makes it through those early stages, and further progresses throughout numerous years of hard work AND maintains their integrity, which is at a high level, I'm really quite absolutely MARVEL-ed. I just did not think it was possible at this point in time, really.

    It is possible but we are the ones responsible in making it possible by electing the right candidates. Look I think that Kucinich and Paul are good men and they are a rarity in politics today, but thast does not make them amazing marvels, that just means that our government is screwed up because we allow our politicians to forgo their principles in order to win re-election.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    mammasan wrote:
    It is possible but we are the ones responsible in making it possible by electing the right candidates. Look I think that Kucinich and Paul are good men and they are a rarity in politics today, but thast does not make them amazing marvels, that just means that our government is screwed up because we allow our politicians to forgo their principles in order to win re-election.
    The system requires compromise, and there's always a fine line as to how much you should be willing to compromise in order to accomplish something else. There are good people in politics that struggle with this all the time. Kucinich and Paul have paid a price for maintaining their integrity ... how many bills with their name on them have passed? I believe the answer is "none." So they've held onto their principles, but they've also not been terribly effective in moving towards their goals. It's a real tightrope act, and there's a downside no matter which way you go.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    farfromglorified wrote:
    They do pay taxes, although techinically speaking they really don't since I'm forced by law to withhold the money from their paychecks so they never even get it in the first place. But, regardless, this is where the "willing" part of your earlier statement goes out the window. Absent the law, I'd give them that money and I suspect most of them would keep it for their own purposes and choices.


    They willing follow the law.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    mammasan wrote:
    It is possible but we are the ones responsible in making it possible by electing the right candidates. Look I think that Kucinich and Paul are good men and they are a rarity in politics today, but thast does not make them amazing marvels, that just means that our government is screwed up because we allow our politicians to forgo their principles in order to win re-election.
    I agree the voters are 100% responsible for who they vote in. And yet, ultimately, no matter "why", it still is what it is. The system is exactly where it is at this point in time, reflecting our evolution as humans. So those "great people" who have not made it as far as Kucinich, much less with integrity intact, they were not meant to do so. And I make this assertion because they did not do so. That Kucinich is where he is is due to external variables AND his inner variables. Neither set of variables exists in a vaccum. So I give Kucinich credit where it is due--for his personal contribution and seeming lifelong dedication. It's MARVEL-ous to me! ;) And really I can talk about this forever, and the more we associate Kucinich's name with the word marvel--positively or negatively, the better. ;)
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    hippiemom wrote:
    The system requires compromise, and there's always a fine line as to how much you should be willing to compromise in order to accomplish something else. There are good people in politics that struggle with this all the time. Kucinich and Paul have paid a price for maintaining their integrity ... how many bills with their name on them have passed? I believe the answer is "none." So they've held onto their principles, but they've also not been terribly effective in moving towards their goals. It's a real tightrope act, and there's a downside no matter which way you go.

    I agree but we are the ones responsible for creating the environment that exists today in Washington. If the public was able to pull themselvesd away from American Idol and Survivor for more than 5 minutes and actually paid a little more attention to the people we elect we could improve the situation in our nation's capital. Then people of principle, like Kucinish and Paul, wouldn't be such a rarity in politics.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    They willing follow the law.

    They have no choice in the matter, vis a vis taxation. I "willingly follow the law" by withholding a percentage of their income. But I'm not doing this "willingly". I'm doing it because I'm coerced into doing it. If I don't do it, I face severe penalties and potential violence. I'm not "willingly following" the laws -- I'm complying with them because even if I did not, the ends would be the same or worse. The "system" doesn't care about my will one way or the other.
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    farfromglorified wrote:
    They have no choice in the matter, vis a vis taxation. I "willingly follow the law" by withholding a percentage of their income. But I'm not doing this "willingly". I'm doing it because I'm coerced into doing it. If I don't do it, I face severe penalties and potential violence. I'm not "willingly following" the laws -- I'm complying with them because even if I did not, the ends would be the same or worse. The "system" doesn't care about my will one way or the other.

    There still is a choice involved
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde

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