The Jesus Economy

Abookamongstthemany · July 2006

hailhailkc wrote:

In my opinion, the very fact of Rushlimbo starting this thread validates my use of that Bible passage. He read my other thread, mocked that, and then started this thread with a mocking post. The only reason he's doing it is because it centers around my evangelical beliefs in the rapture, accepting Christ as your Savior, and everything else that goes along with that. You and I both know that's the reason. I stated in my other thread that I think God has blessed the United States MORE than other countries because of our evangelism, and faith in Christ on the Cross. Not that we're the ONLY ones to have EVER been blessed, but that in our short time as a nation, we have been ESPECIALLY blessed. If I was simply speaking about Jesus talking to the poor, or helping the hungry, Rushlimbo wouldn't be all up in my face. It's my evangelical stance that he likes bait me with…as with most people here who do the same stuff. It's like if you don't portray Jesus as a liberal, or ONLY talk about the four gospels Matt, Mark, Luke, John…you're some kind of fundy, bigot, zealot, Hitler-esque, love hating, war mongering hypocrite.

God said don't kill. It's one of the ten commmandments. Why would God reward those who murder in his name? If there is a God, I don't think he would purposely reward those who defy his wishes and rationalize them. I think there are plenty of nations who prosper like China, who aren't Christians over all. Money buys a lot of our prosperity and often times the way that money is earned is not Godly, not even close. That could be a good reason why he says blessed are the meek and peace makers...because maybe they are the ones going about life the way he intended it...not rationalizing a cycle of death, violence and opression all the while using his scripture to justify it. You can't ignore the commandments and cite other biblical quotes to make this killing seem alright. It seems wrong, the ten commandments are ones people are supposed live by.

**I'm not trying to attack you....just understand better and discuss.

my2hands · July 2006

Commy wrote:

well then Jamaica would be the most prosperous area in the world, as it has more churches per capita than anywhere in the world.

THIS GUY IS GOOD LADIES AND GENTLEMAN

igiventofly · July 2006

the fact that anyone would base there beliefs in the bible is crazy. its a book writen by countess people just as corupt as the people running our country, they chose what they did and didn't want to be included. jesus christ was a great person of his time, but he was just that, a person. we scoff at the gods of the romans from 2000 years ago, but what will people think of us in the future.

OutOfBreath · July 2006

miller8966 wrote:

Its called the protestant work ethic...this hard work mentality is what lead to building america in the early days.

he Protestant work ethic, also known as the Puritan work ethic, is a biblically based teaching on the necessity of hard work, perfection and the goodness of labor. Protestant preachers preached on the goodness and the necessity of labor and its efficacious effect for humans personally and on Christian society as a whole. Protestant preachers saw this as a salve or a correction for original sin.

The term was first coined by Max Weber who was the “youngest” of the German Historical School. The Protestant work ethic is often credited with helping to define the societies of Northern Europe and other Protestant countries where Protestantism was strong, such as in Scandinavia, Northern Germany, Great Britain and the US. In such countries it is regarded by many observers as one of the cornerstones of national prosperity. It has been said that people in countries with Protestant roots tend to be more materialistic, perfectionist, and that they focussed more on work, compared to people many other countries, such as Spain and Italy, where the people had a more relaxed attitude toward work.

The notion faced some criticism in the twentieth century. The strongest being that it revolved mostly around the culture and history of Europe so did not take into account societies that had never been Christian of any type. Examples often cited are East Asian nations like Japan which have a strong work ethic, but never had more than a small minority of Protestants. Others feel that the recent economic progress of Catholic nations like Ireland makes the term at best of historical use. A counter-argument is that "The Protestant work ethic" refers to its Protestant origin and does not require Protestantism itself. As Ireland was ruled by a Protestant nation, while Japan modeled its modernization on largely Protestant nations like the United States and Germany, they could have received the ethic from Protestants without it accepting any religious underpinning to it.

Good show Miller. A highly relevant reference here. Weber outlines how the eviction of monks into society could have influenced people in business with their norm of working hard and indulging little (a recipe for wealth under any conditions). As people saw how well it worked, they adopted it. In other words, you got the monastic norms injected into society, while the catholics kept them inside the monasteries.

In the countries marked by this, notably the netherlands with a calvinist slant, capitalism emerged around this time, and as a concept and business model it caught on first throughout the protestant countries.

Now this is important, because when you then judge how well off nations are by using capitalist measures, then it's no wonder you get the most capitalized countries high on the list. Or at least, those that switched first, still have the advantage on the late-comers. But now India and China is following suit and is set to go past.

Now all this then, although with an explanation rooted in religious norms and practices, is a material and un-religious explanation of how things unfolded by the dawn of capitalism, and it can explain why christian nations seem to be better off.

Now, I dont get why nations should be better off or not depending on god's blessing. Does god deal in individuals, or in nations? Because there are a certain amount of belivers inside a nation (many of whom vigilantly disagree with another and follows different versions of "the faith") makes god bless the entire nation? So the non-believing rockefellers of the world only get filthy rich if there are enough grassroots believers around them? Would be an interesting twist on Marx' class struggle at least.

A work ethic, however derived, is what makes a "nation", or any area really, prosperous. There are many different ways to arrive at such an ethic, as is shown by the Indians, the Chinese, the Japanese and others. The American/European variant is through the protestant work ethic.

Peace
Dan

angelica · July 2006

hailhailkc wrote:

In my opinion, the very fact of Rushlimbo starting this thread validates my use of that Bible passage. He read my other thread, mocked that, and then started this thread with a mocking post. The only reason he's doing it is because it centers around my evangelical beliefs in the rapture, accepting Christ as your Savior, and everything else that goes along with that. You and I both know that's the reason.

If you have the sense that is his purpose, I can't dispute your personal sense.

As for your claim "you and I both know that's the reason", you do not speak for what I know. Considering he had a valid point, I felt he was raising a valid point, although couched in sarcasm and mockery. You have not been able to justify the point he called out, as of yet.

I understand this kind of not-so-subtle hostility towards Christians who use God and Jesus in order to justify putting one group of people above another (I don't condone people acting out such hostility. I do, however, understand where it stems from and that the emotion itself is quite justified, imo.). From what I see, it is not about mockery of God/Jesus, it is about anger and frustration towards the misuse of God/Jesus. I have a sneaking suspicion that those who act in such a way, were they to see Christians modelling themselves after Jesus and acting in a Jesus-like manner of compassion and understanding for all people, including the "least among us", they would be instead very supportive of such a method. (and it looks like you agree with this given the following quote by you)

I stated in my other thread that I think God has blessed the United States MORE than other countries because of our evangelism, and faith in Christ on the Cross. Not that we're the ONLY ones to have EVER been blessed, but that in our short time as a nation, we have been ESPECIALLY blessed. If I was simply speaking about Jesus talking to the poor, or helping the hungry, Rushlimbo wouldn't be all up in my face. It's my evangelical stance that he likes bait me with…as with most people here who do the same stuff. It's like if you don't portray Jesus as a liberal, or ONLY talk about the four gospels Matt, Mark, Luke, John…you're some kind of fundy, bigot, zealot, Hitler-esque, love hating, war mongering hypocrite.

We all know that if we come on this board and say something remotely hypocritical, or present an unbalanced perspective of any sort, we will be called to account for our words. That's not about religious persecution. That is about being accountable for our words. If we are proud of our view, and feel like expressing it publicly, so be it. If the view is not reasonable, or logical, and entails looking down upon groups of people and exalting one's own group, particularly in the name of Jesus, it's the most natural thing in the world that people confront it. We all know this. It sounds like you are not pleased with the response to your statements. That's different than being persecuted in Jesus' name.

angelica · July 2006

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

God said don't kill. It's one of the ten commmandments. Why would God reward those who murder in his name? If there is a God, I don't think he would purposely reward those who defy his wishes and rationalize them. I think there are plenty of nations who prosper like China, who aren't Christians over all. Money buys a lot of our prosperity and often times the way that money is earned is not Godly, not even close. That could be a good reason why he says blessed are the meek and peace makers...because maybe they are the ones going about life the way he intended it...not rationalizing a cycle of death, violence and opression all the while using his scripture to justify it. You can't ignore the commandments and cite other biblical quotes to make this killing seem alright. It seems wrong, the ten commandments are ones people are supposed live by.

**I'm not trying to attack you....just understand better and discuss.

These are very, very good points. Thanks Abook. I would like to hear a response to them.

This goes back to what I was saying about seeing satan in the other guy. Are we overlooking our own adherence to satan in our pursuit of perpetuating the power and rule of our nation? Are we overlooking our own adherence to satan in our means of achieving prosperity?

If we are going to judge the other guy by our standards, we'd better be living to our own standards, ourselves. Because others will see it when we are not, and they will call for us to account for it. And imo, this is nothing compared to when God calls us to account for our actions.

know1 · July 2006

Christianity as I know it has nothing to do with earthly prosperity. It's about heaven and prosperity in the afterlife. This life means very little.

IndianSummer · July 2006

know1 wrote:

Christianity as I know it has nothing to do with earthly prosperity. It's about heaven and prosperity in the afterlife. This life means very little.

and the western missionaries in india had us believe that its hinduism and eastern thought that are other worldly, detached from ground realities and is more bothered about the afterlife/next incarnation(avatar).

danmac · July 2006

know1 wrote:

Christianity as I know it has nothing to do with earthly prosperity. It's about heaven and prosperity in the afterlife. This life means very little.

So why don't all christians go kill themselves?

What an awfully sad way to live one's life. I feel for you. Good luck.

soulsinging · July 2006

IndianSummer wrote:

and the western missionaries in india had us believe that its hinduism and eastern thought that are other worldly, detached from ground realities and is more bothered about the afterlife/next incarnation(avatar).

western missionaries will spin it however they have to to get you folks building churches

know1 · July 2006

danmac wrote:

So why don't all christians go kill themselves?

What an awfully sad way to live one's life. I feel for you. Good luck.

I feel much more for you.

Perhaps I wasn't very clear. What I was saying was that the purpose of Christianity is not to have prosperity on earth. I've never seen anything that supported that. The purpose is to have prosperity in the afterlife.

OutOfBreath · July 2006

know1 wrote:

Perhaps I wasn't very clear. What I was saying was that the purpose of Christianity is not to have prosperity on earth. I've never seen anything that supported that. The purpose is to have prosperity in the afterlife.

I have. It's called tele-evangelism and a centre piece of many modern "mega churches" where your belief will equate economic prosperity in this life. Pretty big in the slums in Brazil among others.

It's stuff like that that gives the rabid anti-christian ammunition for their attacks.

I'm not accusing you here, you seem like rather a sensible sort of christian, and I mean that as a compliment.

Peace
Dan

know1 · July 2006

OutOfBreath wrote:

I have. It's called tele-evangelism and a centre piece of many modern "mega churches" where your belief will equate economic prosperity in this life. Pretty big in the slums in Brazil among others.

It's stuff like that that gives the rabid anti-christian ammunition for their attacks.

I'm not accusing you here, you seem like rather a sensible sort of christian, and I mean that as a compliment.

Peace
Dan

Then I submit to you that is not Christianity.

Thanks for the compliment.

danmac · July 2006

know1 wrote:

I feel much more for you.

Perhaps I wasn't very clear. What I was saying was that the purpose of Christianity is not to have prosperity on earth. I've never seen anything that supported that. The purpose is to have prosperity in the afterlife.

Why feel for me? I'm not sitting around earning brownie points in this life waiting for the next one to be better. Unless someone proves otherwsie, this is all we have, and this is the only shot at this thing we call living we are ever going to get.

'No time to be void, or save upon life, you gotta spend it all...'

know1 · July 2006

danmac wrote:

Why feel for me? I'm not sitting around earning brownie points in this life waiting for the next one to be better. Unless someone proves otherwsie, this is all we have, and this is the only shot at this thing we call living we are ever going to get.

'No time to be void, or save upon life, you gotta spend it all...'

...and you're living your one shot on a message board...

decides2dream · July 2006

why does anyone feel the need to insult another's religious beliefs while in debate over religion? it's all fine and good to think something is bunk....but where is any decency towards another's beliefs? and then we wonder, why none of this respect exists elsewhere? just a thought...

boxwine_in_hell · July 2006

Rushlimbo wrote:

I've heard that some people believe that the prosperity of the United States is directly corelated to their belief in Jesus Christ. I'm wondering if anyone has ever broken this down state by state. Do states with the highest Christian church attendance fair better than states with poor church attendance? Are states' prosperity affected negatively if they have a higher than normal Islamic or Budhist worshiping? perhaps it depends on the number of Bibles vs Koran copies that exist within state boundaries (states with more hotel rooms have a definite advantage here). I'm RAPTURED by this theory.

JC loves making money. That's why he expelled the money lenders from the Temple.

SundaySilence · July 2006

..

miller8966 · July 2006

angelica wrote:

You might want to credit wikipedia for that.

This does not take into account the many Godly people who work very hard and yet suffer hardship after hardship. Or the Godly people who are very poor. Or the Godly people who suffer from illnesses.

It is my understanding that God's will is about a power far greater than us. I think to judge God's will shows where we are at, not where God is at.

I didnt know i was writing a term paper professor...ill make sure to quote everything next time as i hope you do also

angelica · July 2006

miller8966 wrote:

I didnt know i was writing a term paper professor...ill make sure to quote everything next time as i hope you do also

When we post anything, it shows up with our name on it. If we directly quote another source and don't credit it, it comes off as though we, ourselves, wrote it.

plariarise: 1. To use and pass off (the ideas or writings of another) as one's own.
2. To appropriate for use as one's own passages or ideas from (another).

Whether it's handing it in to a professor or posting it under your username on a message board, it's the same act of passing it off as your own.

(edit: and I so get the irony of this edit: dictionary source: dictionary.com.

)

The Jesus Economy

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