The Jesus Economy
Rushlimbo
Posts: 832
I've heard that some people believe that the prosperity of the United States is directly corelated to their belief in Jesus Christ. I'm wondering if anyone has ever broken this down state by state. Do states with the highest Christian church attendance fair better than states with poor church attendance? Are states' prosperity affected negatively if they have a higher than normal Islamic or Budhist worshiping? perhaps it depends on the number of Bibles vs Koran copies that exist within state boundaries (states with more hotel rooms have a definite advantage here). I'm RAPTURED by this theory.
War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength
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"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you. "
-Matthew 5:11-12
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A fine example of using the Bible shield.
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength
I don't really enjoy people attacking Christianity, but I don't really care because I believe in freedom of speech. But there are people who might take offense and remember that libel is written slander which is a prosecutable offense. Absurd things happen.
--Alabama Supreme Court, Ex Parte T.D.T.
A fine example of using the smartass shield…yet again.
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you're an asshole.
~Michael Bolton
Who?
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
I think it is more like
Let me tell you how it will be;
There's one for you, nineteen for me.
'Cause I’m the taxman,
Yeah, I’m the taxman.
Should five per cent appear too small,
Be thankful I don't take it all.
'Cause I’m the taxman,
Yeah, I’m the taxman.
if you drive a car, car - I’ll tax the street;
if you try to sit, sit - I’ll tax your seat;
if you get too cold, cold - I’ll tax the heat;
if you take a walk, walk - I'll tax your feet.
Mihi cura futuri.
The elements they speak to me.
http://espn.go.com/espnradiostations/NewYork1050/gallery/35218855.html
so cute they are
"All you have to do is look at the nations who believe in God and the Bible, and then compare them to the nations who follow these ideals of Islam, and then compare the two to see who God has allowed to prosper, and who he has allowed to suffer via their faith".
I'm wondering if you can back up such a belief with a bible verse, or something indicating it is a view of Jesus'. At this point, given that Jesus was about having love and understanding for the less fortunate, it seems that your words were you own personal view and not Jesus'. If that is the case, I don't think claiming persecution because of Jesus is fair.
The Jesus I am familiar with had compassion and understanding of the poor and the sick, and due to such understanding was able to heal them. On the other hand, projecting satan onto others instead fuels the problems and does the opposite of healing.
If you have the backing of Jesus' word, I would love to hear it.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Its called the protestant work ethic...this hard work mentality is what lead to building america in the early days.
he Protestant work ethic, also known as the Puritan work ethic, is a biblically based teaching on the necessity of hard work, perfection and the goodness of labor. Protestant preachers preached on the goodness and the necessity of labor and its efficacious effect for humans personally and on Christian society as a whole. Protestant preachers saw this as a salve or a correction for original sin.
The term was first coined by Max Weber who was the “youngest” of the German Historical School. The Protestant work ethic is often credited with helping to define the societies of Northern Europe and other Protestant countries where Protestantism was strong, such as in Scandinavia, Northern Germany, Great Britain and the US. In such countries it is regarded by many observers as one of the cornerstones of national prosperity. It has been said that people in countries with Protestant roots tend to be more materialistic, perfectionist, and that they focussed more on work, compared to people many other countries, such as Spain and Italy, where the people had a more relaxed attitude toward work.
The notion faced some criticism in the twentieth century. The strongest being that it revolved mostly around the culture and history of Europe so did not take into account societies that had never been Christian of any type. Examples often cited are East Asian nations like Japan which have a strong work ethic, but never had more than a small minority of Protestants. Others feel that the recent economic progress of Catholic nations like Ireland makes the term at best of historical use. A counter-argument is that "The Protestant work ethic" refers to its Protestant origin and does not require Protestantism itself. As Ireland was ruled by a Protestant nation, while Japan modeled its modernization on largely Protestant nations like the United States and Germany, they could have received the ethic from Protestants without it accepting any religious underpinning to it.
You might want to credit wikipedia for that.
This does not take into account the many Godly people who work very hard and yet suffer hardship after hardship. Or the Godly people who are very poor. Or the Godly people who suffer from illnesses.
It is my understanding that God's will is about a power far greater than us. I think to judge God's will shows where we are at, not where God is at.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I'm not making judgments against anyone. I've never done anything but state my stance, which I CAN support with Biblical scripture. I believe in the Jesus that you're familiar with too…however…I also believe in what the rest of the Bible has to say. I never claimed to be a mouthpiece for God, or Jesus. However, since you asked, here are some versus to back up my stance. And prosperity can mean many different things. I'm not only talking about monetary wealth here. I'm talking about many things. Peace, shelter, food, clothing, love, etc. It's our job, as Christians, to spread his message of saving grace so that others can enjoy not only the physical blessings he brings to us, but his spiritual blessings more importantly. I have understanding of the poor and sick, this isn't about me NOT understanding their plight and "profiting" off of the word of God. Quite the opposite.
• Blessed were the disciples:
“But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.” (Matt. 13:16–17)
“And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see: For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.” (Luke 10:23–24)
• Blessed are those who haven't seen Jesus, but still believe in Him, that is all Christians: “Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.” (John 20:29)
• Blessed are those—like Peter— to whom the Father reveals the Son: “And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” (Matt. 16:17)
• “But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.” (Luke 11:28)
• Blessed are those who do good without taking their reward in their lifetime: “But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.” (Luke 14:13–14)
• Blessed are the Christians, who give food for the soul—the Gospel— to people, and whom Jesus when He comes back, will find so doing:
“Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season. Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.” (Matt. 24:45–46)
“Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them... And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.” (Luke 12:37–43)
Beatitudes in the Book of Revelation
The Revelation to John contains 7 beatitudes in connection with the end times. The number 7 appears frequently in this book: there are 7 candlesticks, 7 stars, 7 churches, a Book sealed with 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 thunders, 7 plagues.
• “Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.” (Rev. 1:3)
• “And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.” (Rev. 14:13)
• “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.” (Rev. 16:15)
• “And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.” (Rev. 19:9)
• “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:6)
• “Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.” (Rev. 22:7)
http://www.cryingvoice.com/Christianity/Blessed.html
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Oh man...classic one line ripper...good one.
(Sorry Miller)
bummp...
What I'm talking about specifically here is where you are using the bible verse that is about being persecuted because of Jesus. If you are claiming to be persecuted for supporting Jesus' ideals I ask if you can state which, exactly, of Jesus' positions you are supporting and being persecuted for.
I say this because if you don't have a legitimate Jesus-based position that you can support with Jesus' specific words, it looks like you are misusing a valid verse regarding the persecution that does take place because of Jesus' legitimate word.
I totally get the persecution in the name of Jesus, or God, or religion. I feel the ugly bias all the time. At the same time, I'm not comfortable if God, Jesus and religion are used to back up fallible human judgment because doing so is a catalyst that encourages the bias against religion, God and Jesus.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
how much do you think zinn and chomsky are making whenever one of those skate decks are sold in the goods section?
~Michael Bolton
In my opinion, the very fact of Rushlimbo starting this thread validates my use of that Bible passage. He read my other thread, mocked that, and then started this thread with a mocking post. The only reason he's doing it is because it centers around my evangelical beliefs in the rapture, accepting Christ as your Savior, and everything else that goes along with that. You and I both know that's the reason. I stated in my other thread that I think God has blessed the United States MORE than other countries because of our evangelism, and faith in Christ on the Cross. Not that we're the ONLY ones to have EVER been blessed, but that in our short time as a nation, we have been ESPECIALLY blessed. If I was simply speaking about Jesus talking to the poor, or helping the hungry, Rushlimbo wouldn't be all up in my face. It's my evangelical stance that he likes bait me with…as with most people here who do the same stuff. It's like if you don't portray Jesus as a liberal, or ONLY talk about the four gospels Matt, Mark, Luke, John…you're some kind of fundy, bigot, zealot, Hitler-esque, love hating, war mongering hypocrite.
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God said don't kill. It's one of the ten commmandments. Why would God reward those who murder in his name? If there is a God, I don't think he would purposely reward those who defy his wishes and rationalize them. I think there are plenty of nations who prosper like China, who aren't Christians over all. Money buys a lot of our prosperity and often times the way that money is earned is not Godly, not even close. That could be a good reason why he says blessed are the meek and peace makers...because maybe they are the ones going about life the way he intended it...not rationalizing a cycle of death, violence and opression all the while using his scripture to justify it. You can't ignore the commandments and cite other biblical quotes to make this killing seem alright. It seems wrong, the ten commandments are ones people are supposed live by.
**I'm not trying to attack you....just understand better and discuss.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
THIS GUY IS GOOD LADIES AND GENTLEMAN
Good show Miller. A highly relevant reference here. Weber outlines how the eviction of monks into society could have influenced people in business with their norm of working hard and indulging little (a recipe for wealth under any conditions). As people saw how well it worked, they adopted it. In other words, you got the monastic norms injected into society, while the catholics kept them inside the monasteries.
In the countries marked by this, notably the netherlands with a calvinist slant, capitalism emerged around this time, and as a concept and business model it caught on first throughout the protestant countries.
Now this is important, because when you then judge how well off nations are by using capitalist measures, then it's no wonder you get the most capitalized countries high on the list. Or at least, those that switched first, still have the advantage on the late-comers. But now India and China is following suit and is set to go past.
Now all this then, although with an explanation rooted in religious norms and practices, is a material and un-religious explanation of how things unfolded by the dawn of capitalism, and it can explain why christian nations seem to be better off.
Now, I dont get why nations should be better off or not depending on god's blessing. Does god deal in individuals, or in nations? Because there are a certain amount of belivers inside a nation (many of whom vigilantly disagree with another and follows different versions of "the faith") makes god bless the entire nation? So the non-believing rockefellers of the world only get filthy rich if there are enough grassroots believers around them? Would be an interesting twist on Marx' class struggle at least.
A work ethic, however derived, is what makes a "nation", or any area really, prosperous. There are many different ways to arrive at such an ethic, as is shown by the Indians, the Chinese, the Japanese and others. The American/European variant is through the protestant work ethic.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
As for your claim "you and I both know that's the reason", you do not speak for what I know. Considering he had a valid point, I felt he was raising a valid point, although couched in sarcasm and mockery. You have not been able to justify the point he called out, as of yet.
I understand this kind of not-so-subtle hostility towards Christians who use God and Jesus in order to justify putting one group of people above another (I don't condone people acting out such hostility. I do, however, understand where it stems from and that the emotion itself is quite justified, imo.). From what I see, it is not about mockery of God/Jesus, it is about anger and frustration towards the misuse of God/Jesus. I have a sneaking suspicion that those who act in such a way, were they to see Christians modelling themselves after Jesus and acting in a Jesus-like manner of compassion and understanding for all people, including the "least among us", they would be instead very supportive of such a method. (and it looks like you agree with this given the following quote by you)
We all know that if we come on this board and say something remotely hypocritical, or present an unbalanced perspective of any sort, we will be called to account for our words. That's not about religious persecution. That is about being accountable for our words. If we are proud of our view, and feel like expressing it publicly, so be it. If the view is not reasonable, or logical, and entails looking down upon groups of people and exalting one's own group, particularly in the name of Jesus, it's the most natural thing in the world that people confront it. We all know this. It sounds like you are not pleased with the response to your statements. That's different than being persecuted in Jesus' name.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
These are very, very good points. Thanks Abook. I would like to hear a response to them.
This goes back to what I was saying about seeing satan in the other guy. Are we overlooking our own adherence to satan in our pursuit of perpetuating the power and rule of our nation? Are we overlooking our own adherence to satan in our means of achieving prosperity?
If we are going to judge the other guy by our standards, we'd better be living to our own standards, ourselves. Because others will see it when we are not, and they will call for us to account for it. And imo, this is nothing compared to when God calls us to account for our actions.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Take my hand, my child of love
Come step inside my tears
Swim the magic ocean,
I've been crying all these years
So why don't all christians go kill themselves?
What an awfully sad way to live one's life. I feel for you. Good luck.
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
Viva Zapatista!
western missionaries will spin it however they have to to get you folks building churches