Put Away the Flags

catefrances wrote:

we have sunshine

not to mention that melbourne is the home of organised crime. you want a hit done. go to melbourne.

our crime is organised....your crime is a bunch of ratbags going around redfern causing chaos....:p

So now Zinn gets to decide who gets to fly a flag, and who doesn't?! That's interesting. I find it funny that he can't come to terms that most people in America, in fact...the great majority of Americans...have the same sense of nationalism as the Swiss, or those living in Costa Rica. It's just pride in ones own country, and in all of the good things that we stand for as a nation. We celebrate it once a yearl. Once a year. And now even THAT is too much for some of you. Unbelievable. I bet quite a few liberal, anti Iraq American citizens will be eating BBQ and shooting off fireworks this year...AND flying their flag. It's sad that people like Zinn can look at the flag and ONLY see what they believe are the negatives that it represents. Why can't they see the postives too? You would think that if someone loved this country so much, they would be willing to acknowledge it's positive aspects every once in awhile. Does the flag not represent the suffrage movement for women, the emancipation proclamation, allowing immigrants to come here and better their lives? Does it not stand for those things anymore? What about the endless list of other positives about America?

It's funny to think that people believe we shouldn't celebrate our nationalism until this country is re-worked and molded into ideal that THEY want. Talk about scary. That doesn't sound like the celebration and acceptance of differing ideals and principles that I hear talked about so much around here. It sounds more like a theory circa 1939. I remember other leaders who altered nationalism to conform to extreme ideals, took God out of the public realm, supported taking away gun rights, and who thought that national pride should only be celebrated once THEIR ideals were brought into place. And...it didn't work out very well.

We might not all agree on US foreign and domestic policy, but it's a damn shame that we can't all agree that the flag reperesents at least SOME decent and good things about America...and at least for a day...be proud of our country and the good things that the flag stands for, and be happy that it affords us the right to come on this board and express our grievences every day in peace, with the legal right to do so.

Regardless of politcal policy, a lot of people have gone to war with the very notion of protecting that ideal, and a lot of people have spilled blood for it. You would think that would mean something.

PaperPlates wrote:

Zinn's a profiteer, he makes money off you. Just like Ed. Dissent is big bucks these days.

Shh! Don't be a party pooper.

Wow! Just saw the discussion. And I was not being saracastic...I am not in la-la land thinking our country is THE BEST and GREATEST on earth but I do have patriotism. I would like to support the ideals. There is still a lot of good done by Americans for many people (Habitat for Humanity comes to mind) exclusive of the government and I support those people/groups.
Carry on.
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and i might have written more in my first post if i was not tired. ")

I am both proud and ashamed to be an American, just as I am both proud and ashamed (usually involves alcohol) of my actions at times. I agree that refusing to fly our countries flag does not solve anything, nor does it solve anything by displaying it with pride. Zinn points out American arrogance, and that is something I think we all can agree exists on a very scary level. We are taught by the people in power that we are "the best", that we are superior to everyone, and that we have higher moral standards/beliefs. Educated people know this isn't true, that it's a corrupt society we live in. But if the less informed don't see this reality, then they just go on fueling the arrogance by raising their children with the same beliefs. Thus building the corporate American crescendo into filling their pockets even more.

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

The problem is where so many arrogantly display their flag and refuse to acknowledge the role the US is playing in the world and the repercussions of our imperialism. I think one should know and think about exactly what they are celebrating and having pride in. There are plenty of things I am proud of in this country, none of them have to do with a flag. Maybe when I see us as a WHOLE moving in the right direction and producing some progress, then I could understand more of this pride. Alot of the stories out there make me feel more embarrassed than proud. When I start reading more articles about the good we are doing around the world on a consistant basis...then maybe I'll consider flying our flag.
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i fully agree. there is much arrogance, i think i used that term yesterday in one of my first posts in fact. however, i think it is possible to exhibit patriotism w/o arrogance as well. nothing i am proud of has anything to do with the flag, i choose to display my flag for reasons related to things i am proud of...thus why i think it's impossible to truly decipher why, or why not...one chooses to display a flag...it's not any one thing. some may do it for blind arrogance, we're the 'best' attitude...but others may do it in honor, in memoriam...as a sign of still caring despite the issues, etc. i'd love to see as as a WHOLE moving in the rigth direction...however i think it's far easier to identify the wrong direction we've been moving in, then what is truly the 'right' way...so yea, i choose to celebrate the smaller goods.....simply b/c i far rather see some good and enjoy that than all bad.

applenut wrote:

Go light a joint and shut the fuck up.

Of course you read about more good than bad. It's what sells. It's what people are attracted to.

You are the uneducated if you think more bad than good comes out of America. It means you simply read CNN and call it a day.

Please don't talk to her that way. I disagree with a majority of her views too...but I think it's better to address the issues at hand instead of cursing at someone.