Are we still looking for Bin Laden?

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  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    jlew24asu wrote:
    not taht I dont believe you cate, but do you have a link proving that?. I searched and couldnt find the list.

    i dont find my info on the net. i use hard copy.

    which part were you searching for?
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  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    catefrances wrote:
    i dont find my info on the net. i use hard copy.

    which part were you searching for?

    just a list of who and how much we give aid to.

    and by aid I assume u mean military aid?
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    jlew24asu wrote:
    just a list of who and how much we give aid to.

    and by aid I assume u mean military aid?

    to be honest jlew, i got this information from a source. i do hold him in high regard, but as i am only relying on his truth and fact gathering skills, i shall endeavour to find some confirmation for you. :) i'll get back to you.
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  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    well...he's awfully quiet for a guy who's still alive and comfortably hooked into some underground elite hideout(s) with loads of cash at his disposal...

    all his muja buddies are cranking out mega jihad tapes (1 every 3 days to be exact)...I'm somewhat amazed Binnie hasn't managed even a 10 second guest appearance...however he's obviously Bin-faked (:D ) by a look alike in 2004 though.

    Seems to me a big egocentric attention getter like him (I believe he was profiled as such before 9/11) would probably rally the troops a little more than he is...still being alive and all. Unless he just wants to look like some trembling kneed chump by his inner circle. I doubt he'd take this approach

    Maybe he's just really big on incredibly long and drawn out suspense and surprises.

    or maybe he's just dead as hell...
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

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  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    icarus wrote:
    http://www.publicintegrity.org/militaryaid/World.aspx

    U.S. Military Aid Before and After 9/11

    Israel
    Egypt
    Pakistan

    ooh thanks icarus. :)
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  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    icarus wrote:
    http://www.publicintegrity.org/militaryaid/World.aspx

    U.S. Military Aid Before and After 9/11

    Israel
    Egypt
    Pakistan

    thanks. thats alot of aid to pakistan. it will be quite ugly if that country ever turns on us.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    icarus wrote:
    why would anyone want to invade pakistan in the first place, it would cause far more harm to US interests than good.
    exactly. I would have a hard time supporting going into pakistan even if we knew bin laden was there. that country is just too fucked up. and has nukes.
  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    icarus wrote:
    http://www.publicintegrity.org/militaryaid/World.aspx

    U.S. Military Aid Before and After 9/11

    Israel
    Egypt
    Pakistan

    Holy shit!

    "The Center defined U.S. military aid as taxpayer supported programs that contribute to a foreign nation’s offensive military capabilities."

    I had no idea the United States pumped that much money, (time & effort) into war.

    is it me, or wtf is wrong with this picture?
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
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  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:
    Holy shit!

    "The Center defined U.S. military aid as taxpayer supported programs that contribute to a foreign nation’s offensive military capabilities."

    I had no idea the United States pumped that much money, (time & effort) into war.

    is it me, or wtf is wrong with this picture?

    now you see why some of us are so amused and horrified by the actions of the US governemnt and their policy makers. :)
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  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    icarus wrote:
    foreign aid doesn't really bother me that much. the world would probably be a lot more fucked up if we weren't using it to influence other governments' policies.

    even military aid?
    and the non discriminatory practice where human rights abusers are concerned?
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  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    catefrances wrote:
    now you see why some of us are so amused and horrified by the actions of the US governemnt and their policy makers. :)

    good lord...no shit eh? It seems the more I look into it the crazier it gets...

    If Pakistan is such a volatile powder keg why dump gasoline on it?

    Honestly...it must all be a big ploy to destabilize the entire region to take it over...

    why else? it seems utterly nonsensical otherwise..
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

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  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    icarus wrote:
    military aid isn't necessarily a bad thing. it doesn't always lead to war. if we weren't giving military aid to Israel or Taiwan they almost certainly would've been invaded and effectively destroyed by now. military aid also led to the development of Western Europe and the peace, cooperation, and prosperity that Western Europe has experienced. i could go on and on. our military aid has led to the preservation and stability of many regions throughout the world.

    of course, military aid can lead to war and can also come back to haunt us later on. but everything isn't so black and white, not all military aid is bad. i'd wager that the majority of it has done a lot of good.

    well, in my jaded opinion all military aid is bad. it perpetuates a never ending cycle of violence.

    please define western europe for me.
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  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    icarus wrote:
    military aid isn't necessarily a bad thing. it doesn't always lead to war. if we weren't giving military aid to Israel or Taiwan they almost certainly would've been invaded and effectively destroyed by now. military aid also led to the development of Western Europe and the peace, cooperation, and prosperity that Western Europe has experienced. i could go on and on. our military aid has led to the preservation and stability of many regions throughout the world.

    of course, military aid can lead to war and can also come back to haunt us later on. but everything isn't so black and white, not all military aid is bad. i'd wager that the majority of it has done a lot of good.

    I imagine it's quite the opposite in reality...

    Dude...you sound a bit like Richard Perle...he's one twisted mofo upstairs. not speaking to you specifically (I don't know you) but that Perle guy creeps me out large...he got some seriously cold evil eyes..
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    icarus wrote:
    military aid isn't necessarily a bad thing. it doesn't always lead to war. if we weren't giving military aid to Israel or Taiwan they almost certainly would've been invaded and effectively destroyed by now. military aid also led to the development of Western Europe and the peace, cooperation, and prosperity that Western Europe has experienced. i could go on and on. our military aid has led to the preservation and stability of many regions throughout the world.

    of course, military aid can lead to war and can also come back to haunt us later on. but everything isn't so black and white, not all military aid is bad. i'd wager that the majority of it has done a lot of good.
    I certainly agree with this
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    icarus wrote:
    the US gave billions in military aid to western europe (france, west germany, britain, belgium, austria, denmark, netherlands, norway, italy, etc) which developed the post-war economies that were devastated by the war. it led to the growth that europe has experienced until today, prevented the takeover of western europe by the soviet union, and laid the seeds for integration that has led to the european union.

    the thing that you're not realizing is that without military aid there could be an even greater cycle of violence. through the use of aid and the threat of suspending aid, the US (and the EU, and international organizations) can prevent nations from taking hostile actions in the international community. like i said, its not all black and white.

    . if there were no military, and yes i know how utopian that concept is(not to mention possibly delusional), we would have to find other ways to resolve conflict. just like we tell our children on a daily basis.

    i dont believe the US had to provide MILITARY aid to western europe in order to secure its sovereignty.
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  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    icarus wrote:
    lol i don't like him either.

    but seriously, how is the opposite?

    I can't say specifically... I may just be naive, but I just don't see how moving in one direction actually takes one in the opposite direction...like an "either part of the problem or part of the solution" scenario... I don't see how supporting and progressing the very notion of war can possibly evade or eliminate it.... I suppose I'm more of a philosopher in this regard. The last thing you want to give children is loaded weapons.

    I think no matter what you try to do in that direction (guns, bombs, war)... for whatever reason...it ultimately escalates it and creates more. It's like it's own little stock market in a way and the countries are the stock.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    catefrances wrote:
    . if there were no military, and yes i know how utopian that concept is(not to mention possibly delusional), we would have to find other ways to resolve conflict. just like we tell our children on a daily basis.

    i dont believe the US had to provide MILITARY aid to western europe in order to secure its sovereignty.
    o come on cate. military will be here until the end of time. just like its been since the beginning of it..

    someday 6 billion people are going to put down there weapons? its part of human nature.

    knowing that, can you at least see the point icaus is making?
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:
    I can't say specifically... I may just be naive, but I just don't see how moving in one direction actually takes one in the opposite direction...like an "either part of the problem or part of the solution" scenario... I don't see how supporting and progressing the very notion of war can possibly evade or eliminate it
    by giving military aid, we arent "supporting and progressing war" just look at eygpt. we hav ebeen giving them billions for years. what wars have they been in, in the past 30 years?
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    icarus wrote:
    then what else were they going to do? soviet tanks rolled all the way up to berlin and would've gone the rest of the way through.

    umm you do realise the soviets were on our side and they were defending themselves after the germans invaded their country, right?
    i certainly have no problem with soviet tanks rolling all the way up to berlin whilst liberating europe from nazi occupation.

    jlew24asu wrote:
    o come on cate. military will be here until the end of time. just like its been since the beginning of it..

    someday 6 billion people are going to put down there weapons? its part of human nature.

    knowing that, can you at least see the point icaus is making?

    oh yeah i know military has been here since the dawn of time and that is will remain. i'm just dreaming. :)

    oh and by the way 6 billion people are not armed. :)
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  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    icarus wrote:
    the point of giving any kind of aid, economic or military, is that you create a lifeline that another country will need. by creating that lifeline, you automatically have an influence over their policy decisions. the threat of suspending aid or increasing aid can have a large sway over the policymakers and leaders of these countries, especially developing nations that are desperate or even relying on that aid for survival (in the case of certain african nations). by using this influence and this threat of suspension, you can control the actions that that government will take, such as liberalizing their economy, not taking aggressive military actions, etc. its not as simple as "more military aid equals more military actions." its about the control that you create over that government and you can thereby restrict their actions.

    It's pretty incredible how far removed we are as we sit here...formally educated...on computers..having the privilege of circumstance (being the top 5% ?) as billions in the third world stumble around like fools in the dark ages... some crazy shit man. It's a bit painful watching people and societies slowly evolve. Unfortunately they have access to our advanced technology and modern weapons.

    I suppose once a particular device of destruction is invented and it exists, I believe it's usage is entirely out of control at that point.

    I wonder at what point this whole thing collapses and we turn into colonial farmers again...lol
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

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    ( o.O)
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