Abortion ultrasound-viewing advances in S.C.

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  • Trau
    Trau Posts: 188
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Easily. One need only ask the question: what does it mean to be human?

    There are a number of valid answers to the question, and one's moral position on abortion will extend from that answer.

    If you believe that to be human is to simply be a living combination of a sperm and an egg, then it's likely you'll believe abortion is unacceptable.

    If you believe that to be human is to simply be a conceived human being, detached from its mother, then it's likely you'll believe abortion is acceptable.

    If you believe that to be human is to simply be a creation of God bearing the name "man", then it's likely you'll believe abortion is unacceptable.

    I think you are making a moral mistake by considering all of those viewpoints to be valid. How can it even be argued that a human is not a human from the moment it is conceived?

    Who has the right to make such arbitrary declarations about when a human becomes a human?
    If you believe that to be human is to have a will of your own and to be a living and thinking absolute, an agent whose survival and happiness belong only to yourself, then you'll have a bit more nuanced position wherein you hold the mother's will and happiness as primary and the fetus's potential will and happiness as exactly that -- a potentiality belonging soley to a mother's discretion.

    But that's arbitrary. I could just as well decide that a human is not really a human until he or she has control of over its own behavior.
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  • Jeanie
    Jeanie Posts: 9,446
    Trau wrote:
    I think the failure is yours. It seems you are incapable of addressing my points.

    Isn't that funny!!! :D We agree!!!! :D
    NOPE!!!

    *~You're IT Bert!~*

    Hold on to the thread
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  • Trau
    Trau Posts: 188
    soulsinging wrote:
    and it seems you are incapable of letting things go. this is an issue where nobody has real "points," only beliefs. many have adequtely responded to your points. just becos you disagree with them doesn't mean their rebuttal is not reasonable or valid.

    Whatever you say there, chief. I have asked questions in this thread that none have yet answered.

    And by the way, responding to responses is sort of what happens in threads like this. If you don't like it, maybe you oughtn't post in them in the first place.
    In the shadow of the light from a black sun
    Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
    Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
    I'm freezing

    Are you afraid, afraid to die
    Don't be afraid, afraid to try
  • Jeanie
    Jeanie Posts: 9,446
    austin wrote:
    Are you saying that women's bodies are private companies and that the government should control that?

    Have you read the whole thread austin?

    Seems you have read this post of mine out of context.

    It was response to a completely different issue than that of the thread.
    NOPE!!!

    *~You're IT Bert!~*

    Hold on to the thread
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  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    Trau wrote:
    Whatever you say there, chief. I have asked questions in this thread that none have yet answered.

    And by the way, responding to responses is sort of what happens in threads like this. If you don't like it, maybe you oughtn't post in them in the first place.

    point out your questions trau and i'll answer them for you. :)
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  • Trau
    Trau Posts: 188
    The main one is the first that I asked in this thread: Why would anyone feel guilty having to look at the ultrasound before having an abortion?
    In the shadow of the light from a black sun
    Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
    Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
    I'm freezing

    Are you afraid, afraid to die
    Don't be afraid, afraid to try
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    Trau wrote:
    The main one is the first that I asked in this thread: Why would anyone feel guilty having to look at the ultrasound before having an abortion?

    i think it's more about feeling manipulated than feeling guilty. if i were asked to view an ultrasound during an abortion counselling session, i would have to wonder at the motivation behind it. knowing me as i do, i don't need to be shown the development of my embryo/foetus in order to make what is essentially the most importance and difficult decision of my life. i am aware of the stages. and besides, viewing an ultrasound would not change my mind on that decision.

    next. :)
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  • Jeanie
    Jeanie Posts: 9,446
    Trau wrote:
    The main one is the first that I asked in this thread: Why would anyone feel guilty having to look at the ultrasound before having an abortion?

    Most people that are objecting to the ultrasounds are objecting to them being mandated by the government. If a woman wants to have an ultrasound whether she keeps the baby or not then it should be her choice.
    If you think that women take the issue of abortion with a grain of salt then I think you are very much mistaken. Why should a woman who for whatever reason has made the difficult decision to abort have to be looking at the foetus? What is the reasoning behind it? What purpose does it serve if she can only make the decision to abort anyway?
    NOPE!!!

    *~You're IT Bert!~*

    Hold on to the thread
    The currents will shift
  • Trau
    Trau Posts: 188
    Neither of you have said why a person might feel guilty about seeking an abortion after having seen such images.

    It has been mentioned in this thread that this is an attempt to put a guilt trip on women.

    Why might they feel guilty?
    In the shadow of the light from a black sun
    Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
    Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
    I'm freezing

    Are you afraid, afraid to die
    Don't be afraid, afraid to try
  • bookmuse
    bookmuse Posts: 277
    Trau wrote:
    Neither of you have said why a person might feel guilty about seeking an abortion after having seen such images.

    It has been mentioned in this thread that this is an attempt to put a guilt trip on women.

    Why might they feel guilty?


    Because they are choosing to terminate what may develop in to a possible viable person. I think it should be a choice. It is possibly one of the hardest decision's a woman must make and she should not be judged by others, because no one has to walk in that person's shoes. There are plenty of unfit, selfish, neglectful and abusive parents out there who chose to carry that cell to a viable person. Breaks my heart how many of those situations are out there where these innocent children are having unspeakable things occur.

    With that said, I think abortions should not be taken lightly and not be used as birth control. It is a choice that one must live with and reconcile within themselves. It is a great reason that sexually active folks who do not want to become pregnant should take precautions.



    ***spelling edit, of course and additional ***
    "Speak your mind even if your voice shakes" ~ M Kuhn
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    Trau wrote:
    I think you are making a moral mistake by considering all of those viewpoints to be valid. How can it even be argued that a human is not a human from the moment it is conceived?

    Who has the right to make such arbitrary declarations about when a human becomes a human?

    But that's arbitrary. I could just as well decide that a human is not really a human until he or she has control of over its own behavior.

    you're right. it IS arbitrary. that's the point. so why should all of society have to follow YOUR arbitrary line?
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    Trau wrote:
    Neither of you have said why a person might feel guilty about seeking an abortion after having seen such images.

    It has been mentioned in this thread that this is an attempt to put a guilt trip on women.

    Why might they feel guilty?

    they are MANIPULATED into feeling guilty for aborting. they are MANIPULATED into feeling that what they are doing is wrong. out of experience i can tell you that you are degraded by some for your decision. that sometimes people damn you to hell. and that they are people who don't know you or your circumstance.
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  • bookmuse
    bookmuse Posts: 277
    catefrances wrote:
    they are MANIPULATED into feeling guilty for aborting. they are MANIPULATED into feeling that what they are doing is wrong. out of experience i can tell you that you are degraded by some for your decision. that sometimes people damn you to hell. and that they are people who don't know you or your circumstance.

    Exactly. The purpose of the ultra sound, to make the girl see the baby so they choose not to have the abortion and to make them feel guilty if they do.

    A choice one feels must be kept secret because people are so judgemental and cruel. Many moons ago I made a choice when I was quite young and in an abusive relationship with nowhere to go. Yes, I think about what might have been and feel loss and wonder but considering what my situation was at that time, I was scared enough for my own life let alone a little baby.
    "Speak your mind even if your voice shakes" ~ M Kuhn
  • Trau
    Trau Posts: 188
    soulsinging wrote:
    you're right. it IS arbitrary. that's the point. so why should all of society have to follow YOUR arbitrary line?

    I don't have a line. I believe a human being is a human being regardless of its stage of development.
    In the shadow of the light from a black sun
    Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
    Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
    I'm freezing

    Are you afraid, afraid to die
    Don't be afraid, afraid to try
  • Trau
    Trau Posts: 188
    catefrances wrote:
    they are MANIPULATED into feeling guilty for aborting. they are MANIPULATED into feeling that what they are doing is wrong. out of experience i can tell you that you are degraded by some for your decision. that sometimes people damn you to hell. and that they are people who don't know you or your circumstance.

    I didn't ask why they might feel guilty for getting an abortion. But looking at that in and of itself, I can't believe that it isn't natural to feel loss and despair after an abortion. That's bullshit to say a woman would only feel guilty because of society.


    Why might the ultrasound make them feel guilty?
    In the shadow of the light from a black sun
    Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
    Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
    I'm freezing

    Are you afraid, afraid to die
    Don't be afraid, afraid to try
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    Trau wrote:
    I didn't ask why they might feel guilty for getting an abortion. Why might the ultrasound make them feel guilty?

    the ultrasound is a visual representation of what it is they are disposing of.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
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  • Trau
    Trau Posts: 188
    catefrances wrote:
    the ultrasound is a visual representation of what it is they are disposing of.

    Yes. And why might seeing that make them guilty?
    In the shadow of the light from a black sun
    Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
    Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
    I'm freezing

    Are you afraid, afraid to die
    Don't be afraid, afraid to try
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    Trau wrote:
    I don't have a line. I believe a human being is a human being regardless of its stage of development.

    that is a line. why not an egg? what about sperm? is masturbation genocide? at what point after you blow your load inside her does it become a human? do you even know? once the egg is fertilized? that's a line you're drawing. is a woman who drinks while pregnant liable for murder or child abuse? what if she's a poor eater and it damages the fetus? negligent care? how far does this line go?

    it's still a line amigo. you just draw it earlier. people of your ilk used to draw it even earlier than you do. they realized how stupid that was though. here's hoping you come to the same realization about your ideology and one day have the strength to admit that your belief is not fact.
  • Jeanie
    Jeanie Posts: 9,446
    Trau wrote:
    Neither of you have said why a person might feel guilty about seeking an abortion after having seen such images.

    It has been mentioned in this thread that this is an attempt to put a guilt trip on women.

    Why might they feel guilty?

    "If you think that women take the issue of abortion with a grain of salt then I think you are very much mistaken."
    NOPE!!!

    *~You're IT Bert!~*

    Hold on to the thread
    The currents will shift
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    Trau wrote:
    Yes. And why might seeing that make them guilty?

    cos it looks like a person and they know one day it might be. ever watch a movie and cry? know anyone who has? did they think it was really happening? that the person who just died onscreen actually died? or did the images simply trigger their human capacity for empathy and emotion, and make them feel sad, or angry, or proud? seeing an ultrasound and having it upset you means nothing. all it means is the people wanting to add to psychological pain of a woman making such a difficult decision are sick sons of bitches who get off on manipulating people to prove a political point.

    women who see it might feel guilt becos it was a difficult choice to make and it will have consequences and we are all bound to second guess ourselves on major decisions. is an american soldier wrong for feeling guilty about shooting an iraqi suicide bomber becos he wonders if maybe he could have stopped it some other way? maybe he could have, maybe he couldnt have. but he made a difficult judgment call and it is not for us to second guess his decisions in a situation we cannot begin to comprehend. should we "prepare" soldiers for battle in iraq by showing them the mangled bodies of iraqi children, just so that they "know" what they might end up doing by their decision to enlist?

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