Put Away the Flags

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

it's nowhere close to being only about the bush admin.

i realize that. thus why in my first post i mentioned that i personally see nothing wrong with having a nationalistic pride, even as a large nation...on that point i do disagree with zinn. i understand where it all stems from, but i do think it's possible to feel a part of the golbal community, to not isolate oneself as a country or behave in an arrogant fashion, above others....and yet still maintain some national pride. even as an individual, i think it is very doable to have a sense of pride for oneself, and yet empathy and a deep sense of caring for others. so yea, i was merely elaborating my personal thoughts on the subject...i thought that was what we did here.

MOKELE M'BEMBE wrote:

Anyway, the message is bullshit. Switzerland held Nazi gold, Norway gave us the word "quisling," and Costa Rica was frequently run by military dictatorships. Being small and weak doesn't reflect the moral character of a society. Did not having nuclear weapons stop the Hutus from slaughtering Tutsis? How powerful was Cambodia? Decent patriotism should never be confused with the fanaticism that will drive the weak to persecute the weaker. I say love your country, and do your part to keep it on the right track. May the United States never use its nuclear weapons, or its fleets of ships, its squadrons of jets, or send its soldiers into combat. May the rest of the world do the same. It won't happen. Not because people's ties to nationalism are too strong or twisted, but because of what humanity is. If we swore our allegiance to humanity, we would swear to the tribal warfare, murder, petty theft, and brutality that have chacterized all of history and are human nature. Nations and societies are founded out of ideals; ideals that not all mankind will accept. Nations and societies therefore need borders, and internal consistency, characteristics which may be difficult to maintain, but are necessary. What would a nation be if it didn't distinguish itself from the rest of the world? Or declares, and resigns itself to accept, ideals which are antithetical to its existence? It would die. I say we need to celebrate and enforce the idea that our nation is different from, and morally superior to, the barbaric powers of history.

Happy Independence Day.

you are picking a tiny part of the article and trying to use it as a basis to discredit the entire piece.

the problem is we, as a society, don't want to accept WHY we are so prosperous. we love the benefits of it but we don't really care about the repurcussions we have on the rest of the world that allows us to achieve that 'prosperity'.

you mention cambodia...at the same time we were selling arms to indonesia who were using them to commit genocide in east timor...same fucking time that pol pot was in power. what about the mass graves in panama to get an old cia agent who stopped following orders out of power? what about us overthrowing a democratic government in iran b/c they wanted to nationalize THEIR oil and installing a ruthless thug which lead way to the nuts being in power now? what about us turning nicaragua from one of the strongest economies in the region to one of the poorest in the world b/c they had this crazy idea that their land and resources shuold be owned by them? what about the death squads we installed in el salvador? how did we get hawaii again? how did we get florida? wasn't bin laden working for the cia when he created al qaeda?

maybe i'm a party pooper but i choose to live in reality, it goes from the earliest days of the nation alllllll the way to now...i believe in the potential of this nation but i have yet to see it honestly worked towards for very long...one step forward and 20 back.

however, i also understand pll holding different meanings of the flag and celebrating/honoring that and that is fine

El_Kabong wrote:

you mention cambodia...at the same time we were selling arms to indonesia who were using them to commit genocide in east timor...same fucking time that pol pot was in power............

and when the vietnamese removed the khmer rouge from power, they were turned into international pariahs thanks to the united states and their inability to think rational or objectively. the khmer rouge were allowed to keep their seat at the united nations despite the genocide committed by the regime of pol pot and yet vietnam went unrecognised.

decides2dream wrote:

b/c it seemed there were complaints for not elaborating in another post...i chose to elaborate, and then it seemed like what? i didn't understand? again...i was merely elaborating, and sure..perhaps being a little smartassy in saying 'that's what we did here'...only in response to the comments earlier asking for as much. i hardly thought it needed explanation, though it fairly obvious. so no issue was taken, merely a little humor. since i was thanked for 'at least taking the time' for stating my thoughts.

so, fair enough.

anyway, obviously, i do not view our country in the same light as many of you. sure, LOTS of things wrong...imperfect...soooo much to work on...but sure, i do think that at its core, the ideals are there...even if not well-orchestrated as of yet. call me a dreamer, an optimist...but i do like to also see the GOOD there is, even amongst all the bad...and yes, i can focus on that, and celebrate that. so however, if at at all, you celebrate....i hope you all have a lovely holiday....or at least enjoy a beautiful summer day with hopefully a paid day off....or at least earn some overtime ...whatever. enjoy.

can you at least admit the hypocrisy that the united states is so often swathed in?

El_Kabong wrote:

you are picking a tiny part of the article and trying to use it as a basis to discredit the entire piece.

the problem is we, as a society, don't want to accept WHY we are so prosperous. we love the benefits of it but we don't really care about the repurcussions we have on the rest of the world that allows us to achieve that 'prosperity'.

you mention cambodia...at the same time we were selling arms to indonesia who were using them to commit genocide in east timor...same fucking time that pol pot was in power. what about the mass graves in panama to get an old cia agent who stopped following orders out of power? what about us overthrowing a democratic government in iran b/c they wanted to nationalize THEIR oil and installing a ruthless thug which lead way to the nuts being in power now? what about us turning nicaragua from one of the strongest economies in the region to one of the poorest in the world b/c they had this crazy idea that their land and resources shuold be owned by them? what about the death squads we installed in el salvador? how did we get hawaii again? how did we get florida? wasn't bin laden working for the cia when he created al qaeda?

maybe i'm a party pooper but i choose to live in reality, it goes from the earliest days of the nation alllllll the way to now...i believe in the potential of this nation but i have yet to see it honestly worked towards for very long...one step forward and 20 back.

however, i also understand pll holding different meanings of the flag and celebrating/honoring that and that is fine

What do any of those random instances of alleged misdeeds on the part of the U.S. have to do with anything I wrote? The article said that nationalism is fine in small nations, but real bad n' stuff in bigger ones, specifically America, but it did generalize. I provided counter examples. Ones specific to the nations cited, in fact. What about all that stuff, anyway? All you've done is prove you can name a bunch of (pretty minor) historical events. I can think of dozens of more significant blemishes on American history, so it's not like your earning any lefty street cred here. It’s also ridiculous to claim that we, as a society, don't want to accept WHY we are so prosperous without giving any examples of how any of these "repercussions" have put money into the average American's pocket. Do we really not want to accept it? Or is the truth just less romantic. Speaking of people not accepting the reasons for their prosperity, here's something that might make your head explode: how many trees died to make those Howard Zinn skateboard decks they sell at the Ten Club?

KABOOM!

thanks for posting the zinn article, abook. as always, a good read.

MOKELE M'BEMBE wrote:

how many trees died to make those Howard Zinn skateboard decks they sell at the Ten Club?

KABOOM!

they sell howard zinn skate decks at the 10 club?

that is tragic.

MOKELE M'BEMBE wrote:

What do any of those random instances of alleged misdeeds on the part of the U.S. have to do with anything I wrote? The article said that nationalism is fine in small nations, but real bad n' stuff in bigger ones, specifically America, but it did generalize. I provided counter examples. Ones specific to the nations cited, in fact. What about all that stuff, anyway? All you've done is prove you can name a bunch of (pretty minor) historical events. I can think of dozens of more significant blemishes on American history, so it's not like your earning any lefty street cred here. It’s also ridiculous to claim that we, as a society, don't want to accept WHY we are so prosperous without giving any examples of how any of these "repercussions" have put money into the average American's pocket. Do we really not want to accept it? Or is the truth just less romantic. Speaking of people not accepting the reasons for their prosperity, here's something that might make your head explode: how many trees died to make those Howard Zinn skateboard decks they sell at the Ten Club?

KABOOM!

that is exactly my point, to YOU they are labeled 'minor' to the ppl who had thousands upon thousands killed by US sponsored death squads it takes on a slightly larger role. and yes, there are other blemishes...my point was to show they happened in our lifetimes and are still happening.

he's not saying what the other nations did is ok, he's saying it's not as dangerous, and it's not.

you are comparing the actions of several countries and comparing them to one; the US. if you compare the actions on a single country basis it is 'benign'. as in the numbers don't come anywhere close to comparing. and at what point will it stop on our end?

you imply we accept the repurcussions of our benefits...how? by supporting it? by shruging our shoulders?

as for the skate decks...i don't know...but i do know the other year stone donated $5,00 to the new apollo energy project, and there's this

Q. The band Pearl Jam worked with CI to make their 2003 tour carbon neutral. It sounds like all the cool kids are doing it. Can you explain how individuals can become carbon neutral?

It is actually a cool thing for schools, communities, businesses and government agencies to do as well. In the case of Pearl Jam, the band offset 5,700 tons of CO2 emissions released from trucks, buses, airplane travel, hotel rooms, concert halls, plus the one million fans driving to and from the concerts. Pearl Jam is funding a joint project between CI and the Wildlife Conservation Society to create and manage a new protected area in the rain forest of Makira, Madagascar.

To become carbon neutral, a good strategy is to look at it like a portfolio of stocks and bonds, and diversify. For example, only purchase Energy Star-rated high-efficiency appliances, computer equipment, lights, buildings, etc. Purchase the most fuel-efficient vehicles, use mass transit, bike, walk and telecommute. These actions save money and prevent not only CO2 emissions, but smog and acid rain pollutants as well. Then take some of the savings to offset the rest of your climate footprint by funding the protection of threatened rain forests, regeneration of fragmented landscapes into connected corridors of biodiversity, and purchase green power (e.g., solar and wind power).

Of even greater potential is for each person to engage the institutions within which they participate (local governments, religious institutions, non-profits and businesses) to commit to achieving zero net CO2 emissions.


so i'd assume they are doing something about that certain issue