sin and forgiveness

Abuskedti · November 2008

angelica wrote:

There is a difference between our earth-based or ego nature, and our real nature, or spiritual nature.

To truly forgive ourselves or others, we recognize our true nature, or the true nature of others. Forgive means to give as in the fore...to give as we did before recognition of any wrong. Then we see ourselves clearly, in Truth. For many, they must seek this forgiveness from outside themselves, since they cannot recognize it within...they are too separate from the Truth within them.

Sooooooo what about things commited after recognition of the wrong? Or do you believe, as I do, that virtually nobody does that.

catefrances · November 2008

Abuskedti wrote:

Sooooooo what about things commited after recognition of the wrong? Or do you believe, as I do, that virtually nobody does that.

do you mean knowing what you are doing is wrong but doing it anyway. and then admitting what youve done and acknowledging it as a wrong action?

Abuskedti · November 2008

catefrances wrote:

do you mean knowing what you are doing is wrong but doing it anyway. and then admitting what youve done and acknowledging it as a wrong action?

No. What I mean is, whenever someone chooses to do something, they believe, all things considered, that it is the right thing to do.

Noone ever does anything they know is wrong. Now all things are surely completed.. and they may know there is some wrong, but in sum - all the good and bad totalled in every action - adds up on the good side, or they would not have done it.

in hindsight, they may realize they were looking at it wrong... but nobody ever does anything they think is wrong in sum.. or they wouldn't do it.

that is what I believe.

catefrances · November 2008

Abuskedti wrote:

No. What I mean is, whenever someone chooses to do something, they believe, all things considered, that it is the right thing to do.

Noone ever does anything they know is wrong. Now all things are surely completed.. and they may know there is some wrong, but in sum - all the good and bad totalled in every action - adds up on the good side, or they would not have done it.

in hindsight, they may realize they were looking at it wrong... but nobody ever does anything they think is wrong in sum.. or they wouldn't do it.

that is what I believe.

hmm......... interesting.

i have to admit there are some times when i do things that i know are wrong. but i do them anyway because i need them. i am thinking only of my survival. however, that does not mean it doesnt come back and bite me in the arse. it is a selfish act i admit that. but for me my truth is at the time, i needed to do what i did.

Heineken Helen · November 2008

catefrances wrote:

and i repeat my question.

bless me father for i have sinned. it has been so fucking long since my last confession

you only go to confession when you've sinned... if you're a practising catholic... although some of us believe that we don't need to talk to god via a priest

Sweet Emotion · November 2008

Abuskedti wrote:

No. What I mean is, whenever someone chooses to do something, they believe, all things considered, that it is the right thing to do.

Noone ever does anything they know is wrong. Now all things are surely completed.. and they may know there is some wrong, but in sum - all the good and bad totalled in every action - adds up on the good side, or they would not have done it.

in hindsight, they may realize they were looking at it wrong... but nobody ever does anything they think is wrong in sum.. or they wouldn't do it.

that is what I believe.

My friend, that is horribly naive. There are people out there of every stripe that are willing and able to deceive others all day long for one form of gain or another. Lawyers and used car salesmen for example. Politicians, as well.

eyedclaar · November 2008

Abuskedti wrote:

No. What I mean is, whenever someone chooses to do something, they believe, all things considered, that it is the right thing to do.

Noone ever does anything they know is wrong. Now all things are surely completed.. and they may know there is some wrong, but in sum - all the good and bad totalled in every action - adds up on the good side, or they would not have done it.

in hindsight, they may realize they were looking at it wrong... but nobody ever does anything they think is wrong in sum.. or they wouldn't do it.

that is what I believe.

Sorry, that's just stone cold crazy.

Austicman · November 2008

Abuskedti wrote:

Noone ever does anything they know is wrong. .

Utter Bollocks!! People do wrong all the time. knowing it is wrong when their doing it.

MichaelMcKevin · November 2008

For those that have seen Zeitgeist or just know this in general, how does the connection between Paganism and Christianity tie into the esoteric agenda and 911 conspiracies?

Jeremy1012 · November 2008

Abuskedti wrote:

No. What I mean is, whenever someone chooses to do something, they believe, all things considered, that it is the right thing to do.

Noone ever does anything they know is wrong. Now all things are surely completed.. and they may know there is some wrong, but in sum - all the good and bad totalled in every action - adds up on the good side, or they would not have done it.

in hindsight, they may realize they were looking at it wrong... but nobody ever does anything they think is wrong in sum.. or they wouldn't do it.

that is what I believe.

...

sponger · November 2008

cornnifer wrote:

In all due respect, if you get your perceptions of people of faith through a caller on the DR. Laura, show, it says alot.

The view that I was illustrating does not stray far from that of most conservative religious individuals. Morality to them is defined by the bible and nothing else. If you think morality exists outside of whatever religious text you have subscribed to, then you are not religious.

cornnifer · November 2008

sponger wrote:

The view that I was illustrating does not stray far from that of most conservative religious individuals. Morality to them is defined by the bible and nothing else. If you think morality exists outside of whatever religious text you have subscribed to, then you are not religious.

You paint with a very broad brush and gather your data from carefully selected sources, or no sources at all.

HermanBloom · November 2008

My thought: God gave us sin to make us humble. We need to sin and have disappoint to grow and learn. Without it, we could never be like him and return to is presence.

sponger · November 2008

cornnifer wrote:

You paint with a very broad brush and gather your data from carefully selected sources, or no sources at all.

Instead of pretending that I base my views on a single radio talk show phone call, try taking a stab at the actual point that I'm at least trying to make. That way you don't look like you're just trying to damage my credibility like some attorney in a courtroom.

writersu · November 2008

catefrances wrote:

so...
if we are all born in and of sin because of adams fall, how come we have to seek forgiveness for something that is clearly within our nature?

ok, here is what I think......

I think we are who what God made us into because that is whom He wanted us to become. He (from what I have been taught from Scripture; don't know if I interpreted it right or not, so be patient with me, please) knew before Adam sinned that he would do so and He also knew we would fight with the eternal urge to please our own carnal nature and go against what we know we should do because in our souls, we are made in His image and that is the part that is pure in all of us.

What makes me sad though, and I don't understand why He had to do this if God knew this would happen, is why Jesus had to go through so much pain and why this could not happen; this redemption ; in a less violent less painful way.

any help on this? I always get sad thinking of this............

and I once heard this man say, in a lecture that was not at all to sell any belief in terms of faith and religion to anyone, "Do good because it is good to do, not because of the promise of heaven or the threat of hell".

catefrances · November 2008

nathanastin wrote:

My thought: God gave us sin to make us humble. We need to sin and have disappoint to grow and learn. Without it, we could never be like him and return to is presence.

i dont need to sin to be humble. but my question is why do we need to humble ourselves? and to whom?

sponger · November 2008

writersu wrote:

What makes me sad though, and I don't understand why He had to do this if God knew this would happen, is why Jesus had to go through so much pain and why this could not happen; this redemption ; in a less violent less painful way.

...because without the phrase, "He died for our sins," the popularity of Jesus would never have gained so much ground. Point in fact is that the most common visual depiction of Jesus involves the image of his being crucified.

That is, for many people who follow christian ideology, the suffering of Jesus attests to his sincere concern for mankind. It is an establishment of credibility on his part.

Commy · November 2008

GivenToCarve wrote:

For those that have seen Zeitgeist or just know this in general, how does the connection between Paganism and Christianity tie into the esoteric agenda and 911 conspiracies?

great question.

Considering Zeitgeist claims Christianity is basically a ripoff of Paganism, that Christianity is using Paganism for its own ends...

cornnifer · November 2008

writersu wrote:

What makes me sad though, and I don't understand why He had to do this if God knew this would happen, is why Jesus had to go through so much pain and why this could not happen; this redemption ; in a less violent less painful way.

any help on this? I always get sad thinking of this............

".

My thoughts about it are this:

Jesus had to suffer. He had to experience everything humans experience. The anger in the temple, the ultimate betrayal with a kiss, temptation, feelings of being God forsaken, and yes, actual physical pain. To me, a savior who never experienced these things would be completely useless. i would want nothing to do with a savior who never experienced the things i do. To me, THATS why the suffering of Christ was necessary. To me, its a bittersweet thing to think of. Its sad, yes, but in a very comforting way.

Sweet Emotion · November 2008

sponger wrote:

I remember a while back I was listening to Dr. Laura, who is an ultra-conservative god-pushing version of Dr. Phil.

So, this caller calls in and starts to talk about the urge to commit adultery, and how he refrains because it's wrong per the bible. But, he added that he still wants to commits adultery--hence the phone call.

So, Dr. Laura goes, "Tell me why adultery is wrong."

The caller goes, "Because the bible says it's wrong."

Dr. Laura says, "But, give me the secular reason. Other than what the bible says, why is adultery wrong?"

The caller responds, "Ugghh, hmmmm."

This caller seriously couldn't figure out what was wrong with adultery other than that it defies the word of god.

Obviously, adultery violates the trust that one's partner has so heavily invested into the marriage. If children are involved, adultery risks the dissolution of the family unit, which can have serious emotional consequences on impressionable victims.

But, I think for many people in this world, that kind of intuitive grasp on the difference between right and wrong is far beyond their capabilities. So, they turn to religion to explain to them why society is the way it is -- because god says it's that way.

OK, 2 things.
first, Belief is the end of thought. Those who believe stop thinking critically.
And, second, the caller felt he was in friendly territory talking to that quack, because his explanation for the decision to not commit adultery involved the invocation of g-o-d. Surely, the good doctor would sing his praises and he could go on not thinking forever more. He only wanted to be appreciated for his confession of faith not his confession.
(It's got nothing to do with pointing a finger at the moon.)

sin and forgiveness

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