I don't think brothels, sex rings and such should be legalized, because it's exploitative. Someone said women choose to become prostitutes, but that's only because their other choices are even worse.
Even San Francisco overwhelmingly voted down legalizing prostitution. Sorry to sound moralistic, but let's have some common decency.
common decency = moralistic
I haven't done much research on the topic, but expanding on whichever model places emphasis on women's safety is the only choice...common decency and morals are subjective, so unless you can have everyone conform to your standards, the problem will not go away.
from what I can tell, based on the history of Pickton in Vancouver, and the killer still stalking my city (Edmonton), the women in brothels/massage parlours are the safest, escorts next... the street girls are totally vulnerable.
The problem here is that the street girls, the ones in the most danger, would never get a job in a parlour or for an agency, because normally they are the ones with dependency issues, psychological problems etc...
Still, this doesn't change the fact that it is not going away, and like drug prohibition, I have to go with harm reduction over sweeping it under the rug or arresting people for a personal decision.
Wow - I never thought when I started a quick thread and got back to work that it would have so many replies next time I got back to it... or that it would have taken such a turn.
It seems like much of the thread has been dedicated to the themes of choice and patriarchy, so here are my initial thoughts on those subjects:
For one thing, many, many people who sell sex are forced into it against their will and/or are children. Of course there are also many prostitutes who are consenting adults and made the choice to do this. But "choice" is relative. And when one has limited viable options, we must reconsider how much weight we want to give to the idea that something was their choice.
For instance, there are women in the world who, when they have babies who will starve without government milk handouts, are told that they can't receive any free food for their babies unless they get their tubes tied. Of course they get their tubes tied, lest their babies starve, and this was their "choice".
There are women whose family members need extremely expensive, life-sustaining medical care, which they can only pay for by prostituting themselves. Do they "choose" to do it? Many do. What other viable options did they have? But should we just chalk it up to "she made her choice" and move on?
Just because people "choose" prostitution doesn't mean it's not a problem.
Regarding patriarchy, exploitation, and objectification of women... one thing I've noticed about this board is that whenever such subjects come up many of the men - particularly the ones who seem to pride themselves on being "enlightened" - become quite defensive. It's as if when someone observes that these things still exist, what the men hear is, "You, sir, are a misogynist pig!"
But please try to remember that this is not personal, it's not about you, no one is saying you have anything but the best intentions toward women. I don't believe anyone is even saying that any particular man, even the ones who buy sex, have an actual desire to objectify women.
I believe what is being said (or at least what I would like to say) is that the objectification of women still exists. It's still a problem. It's a social problem. And prostitution is one of its symptoms.
It's a sad state of affairs when women feel that selling their bodies for sex is their best option to get ahead or make ends meet. We need to address the circumstances that cause them to feel the need to do this.
It's also a sad state of affairs when men feel that using women merely for their own gratification (sexual or otherwise) is an acceptable practice. We need to address why they feel the desire to do this and why they think it's okay.
And I wouldn't blame them. I've worked in factories. I'd probably do the same thing. But let's get rid of all slavery. Let's get rid of the factories. Let's stop mass producing so much fucking junk. We should all be working much less, and enjoying ourselves a lot more.
I hear this...
Man ain't meant to work
C'mon build a machine!
So we can sleep and make love deeper
Later we can dance and we can drink!
Man ain't meant to work
C'mon build a machine!
So we can live for our own pleasure
Please yourself!
Please your queens!
Early morning the sun is yawning
I am not kind yet
I am certain
I have no doubt
Life is for playing
Days like these I hardly disagree
So what!
That's my conclusion
I think I'm gonna dig myself now
(this is the second Jane's Addiction song this thread has made me think of )
...from what I can tell, based on the history of Pickton in Vancouver...
...The problem here is that the street girls, the ones in the most danger, would never get a job in a parlour or for an agency, because normally they are the ones with dependency issues, psychological problems etc...
Like my friend Cindy who happened to be murdered by Picton.
RIP Cindy Beck.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I admit I haven't read this whole thread, but I didn't see male prostitution addressed. Prostitution doesn't just affect women. It will always exist imo, so I am conflicted in the best way to handle it. At least if it is legalized, there will be some regulation and therefore support for those involved. In a perfect world it wouldn't exist, but as we know, there is no such thing.
"I'd rather be with an animal." "Those that can be trusted can change their mind." "The in between is mine." "If I don't lose control, explore and not explode, a preternatural other plane with the power to maintain." "Yeh this is living." "Life is what you make it."
so sorry to hear that angelica :(
I can't imagine what it would be like to hear those stories and know one of the victims...the 'man' is a monster.
Thanks for your sentiments.
I can't imagine what Cindy endured at his hands...I do, however, have some insight into what she endured in her life. She was treated inhumanely by many... she was the "town tramp" and the treatment she received was deplorable. Even though her and I were pregnant teenagers at the same time, she at times was treated poorly by me as well. I still deal with that. It's surreal where she ended up....and yet, at the same time it somehow makes tragic sense. :(
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
What other viable options did they have? But should we just chalk it up to "she made her choice" and move on?
Just because people "choose" prostitution doesn't mean it's not a problem.
I don't know, depends on how you look at it. I see it as a choice. Yes, many are forced into it by circumstances but it's still a choice.
Regarding patriarchy, exploitation, and objectification of women... one thing I've noticed about this board is that whenever such subjects come up many of the men - particularly the ones who seem to pride themselves on being "enlightened" - become quite defensive. It's as if when someone observes that these things still exist, what the men hear is, "You, sir, are a misogynist pig!"
But please try to remember that this is not personal, it's not about you, no one is saying you have anything but the best intentions toward women. I don't believe anyone is even saying that any particular man, even the ones who buy sex, have an actual desire to objectify women.
I believe what is being said (or at least what I would like to say) is that the objectification of women still exists. It's still a problem. It's a social problem. And prostitution is one of its symptoms.
If you present prostitution as a problem caused by the patriarchal society and the objectification of women then I think you are seeing things in black and white. As much as you (or at least VictoryGin) might like to believe it, not all of the worlds problems are created by men. There's more to it.
Prostitution exists for many reasons. There are prostitutes who love their job. There are women who go into prostitution because of easy money although other options are available. Perhaps they need a lot more money than they can ever earn with any other job (within their options, usually low paid jobs), yes, even if they earned the same amount men make.
And there are many reasons why people visit prostitutes. It's not just because of the objectification of women. Again, to paint it that was is just painting it black and white.
So when someone suggest that once we get rid of the objectification of women prostitution will magically disappear there will be a lot of people responding. Don't blame the guys here for actually stating the obvious.
You'll also notice that all of these "enlightened" men :rolleyes: have acknowlegded objectification exists. They don't try to deny it in any way. VictoryGin didn't "observe" that it exists. She linked it to prostitution as if it's the sole cause.
"Oldest profession in the world. It will never be stamped out."
VG: "hey maybe it will be stamped out when our patriarchal culture stops objectifying women."
Yes, she also later claimed to be merely talking about the existence of objectification.
Hey, I'm just trying to get a feminist to admit her mistake. This hatred for the patriarchal society is clouding her vision.
It's a sad state of affairs when women feel that selling their bodies for sex is their best option to get ahead or make ends meet. We need to address the circumstances that cause them to feel the need to do this.
Yes, it's sad. But it's a reality. It also happens to be sad when men feel they need to sell their bodies, scb. Feminists :rolleyes: j/k.
But you are right, we need to address the circumstances and as I've pointed out before, and many other as well, the circumstances aren't all caused by the partiarchal society or the objectification of women. So that's why VictoryGin's misleading feminist rhetoric was addressed the way it was, not because us men hear "You, sir, are a misogynist pig!" We realise there's more to it. It's not black and white.
It's also a sad state of affairs when men feel that using women merely for their own gratification (sexual or otherwise) is an acceptable practice. We need to address why they feel the desire to do this and why they think it's okay.
Again, don't forget to mention women who use men. You sexist, you!
I disagree, by the way. It is acceptable and I think it's ok. But I can assure you not everyone who visits a prostitute feels it's acceptable or ok.
Why they have this "desire"? You're a smart girl, I'm sure you can think of tons of reasons why they have these "desire". A lot of these reasons are very hard to address.
are you saying that sex does not have anything to do with gender or sexuality and instead it's about commodification? sex is a product divorced of gender or sexuality implications? and because of this anyone who commodifies sex is exploiting themselves?
No, I'm saying that sex within the realms of prostitution has little to do with sexuality on the part of the woman, in the case of those who do it from necessity but not from being forced into it by another person, so they are subject to exploitation more from their situation than from patriarchal oppression. The act is a transaction for the woman, not an emotional congression. Those who prostitute themselves from choice and for gratification as well as money are another matter, their outlook may well be shaped by society's influence on them but frankly, there are women who live in the same society and similar situations who DON'T turn to prostitution. It's too simplistic to call it oppression.
"I remember one night at Muzdalifa with nothing but the sky overhead, I lay awake amid sleeping Muslim brothers and I learned that pilgrims from every land — every colour, and class, and rank; high officials and the beggar alike — all snored in the same language"
I admit I haven't read this whole thread, but I didn't see male prostitution addressed. Prostitution doesn't just affect women. It will always exist imo, so I am conflicted in the best way to handle it. At least if it is legalized, there will be some regulation and therefore support for those involved. In a perfect world it wouldn't exist, but as we know, there is no such thing.
I mentioned it. I said that there are men out there who are desperate for money who turn to selling themselves for it, not because of an oppressive male society but because they have a body and people will pay for it. Simple as that.
"I remember one night at Muzdalifa with nothing but the sky overhead, I lay awake amid sleeping Muslim brothers and I learned that pilgrims from every land — every colour, and class, and rank; high officials and the beggar alike — all snored in the same language"
I don't know, depends on how you look at it. I see it as a choice. Yes, many are forced into it by circumstances but it's still a choice.
Agreed.
Even when the circumstances that bring one to the profession are deplorable, and even when it's the best choice...it is always a choice, and it's it always a choice where the person who makes it must accept the consequences of the choice. Life always responds to such a choice with the exact consequences of it (like with any choice), no exceptions.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
from what I can tell, based on the history of Pickton in Vancouver, and the killer still stalking my city (Edmonton), the women in brothels/massage parlours are the safest, escorts next... the street girls are totally vulnerable.
The problem here is that the street girls, the ones in the most danger, would never get a job in a parlour or for an agency, because normally they are the ones with dependency issues, psychological problems etc...
Still, this doesn't change the fact that it is not going away, and like drug prohibition, I have to go with harm reduction over sweeping it under the rug or arresting people for a personal decision.
That's my thinking. Wouldn't legalization reduce the number forced onto the streets or craigslist for this? Say what you will about how gross the red light district in Amsterdam is (I personally loved it, hehe), it sure seemed to keep things concentrated and contained. The rest of the city was very nice.
I haven't done much research on the topic, but expanding on whichever model places emphasis on women's safety is the only choice...common decency and morals are subjective, so unless you can have everyone conform to your standards, the problem will not go away.
from what I can tell, based on the history of Pickton in Vancouver, and the killer still stalking my city (Edmonton), the women in brothels/massage parlours are the safest, escorts next... the street girls are totally vulnerable.
The problem here is that the street girls, the ones in the most danger, would never get a job in a parlour or for an agency, because normally they are the ones with dependency issues, psychological problems etc...
Still, this doesn't change the fact that it is not going away, and like drug prohibition, I have to go with harm reduction over sweeping it under the rug or arresting people for a personal decision.
excellent post.
i DO think it should be legal. yes, absolutely there are a whole host of 'grey areas' mixed in that assessment, but there exists grey areas even with it illegal, b/c let's face it....it DOES exist either way. so if it's legal, perhaps it can be more 'safe'.....? and yes, it must be MEN and/or WOMEN, legal age....18 or older.....consentual sex for money.
If you present prostitution as a problem caused by the patriarchal society and the objectification of women then I think you are seeing things in black and white. As much as you (or at least VictoryGin) might like to believe it, not all of the worlds problems are created by men. There's more to it.
Prostitution exists for many reasons. There are prostitutes who love their job. There are women who go into prostitution because of easy money although other options are available. Perhaps they need a lot more money than they can ever earn with any other job (within their options, usually low paid jobs), yes, even if they earned the same amount men make.
And there are many reasons why people visit prostitutes. It's not just because of the objectification of women. Again, to paint it that was is just painting it black and white.
So when someone suggest that once we get rid of the objectification of women prostitution will magically disappear there will be a lot of people responding. Don't blame the guys here for actually stating the obvious.
You'll also notice that all of these "enlightened" men :rolleyes: have acknowlegded objectification exists. They don't try to deny it in any way. VictoryGin didn't "observe" that it exists. She linked it to prostitution as if it's the sole cause.
"Oldest profession in the world. It will never be stamped out."
VG: "hey maybe it will be stamped out when our patriarchal culture stops objectifying women."
Yes, she also later claimed to be merely talking about the existence of objectification.
Hey, I'm just trying to get a feminist to admit her mistake. This hatred for the patriarchal society is clouding her vision.
this is why posting with you about this is POINTLESS. you seem to think you know exactly what i believe, like i'm some textbook feminist you studied. i NEVER SAID OBJECTIFICATION IS THE SOLE CAUSE. i do, however, believe it is one of many aspects of prostitution. i believe that in this patriarchal culture, sexual objectification of women exists, which is easily seen in prostitution and advertising. it's funny you're trying to claim you know that i believe objectification is the sole cause, when i don't call it a cause, or ever called it a cause in this thread, and you are only using one quote of mine to try and prove this (which is funny, mr. black/white). i see prostitution more as an aspect, a symptom, that if our culture did stop objectifying women, prostitution would change and wouldn't be the last resort it is now. for example, if women were not objectified perhaps they'd more respected and seen as equals, which could manifest into rare employment discrimination, equal pay for equal work, they wouldn't be as sexually harassed. in fact, women could get paid well and and excel in fields other than prostitution. i never said prostitution would completely vanish. perhaps the only mistake i made was engaging in this thread with dumbasses who have their own preconceived notions of what a feminist is like (re: statements about "hatred for the patriarchal society" feminists are man-haters, argh!) and their preconceived notions seem to cloud their comprehension.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
No, I'm saying that sex within the realms of prostitution has little to do with sexuality on the part of the woman, in the case of those who do it from necessity but not from being forced into it by another person, so they are subject to exploitation more from their situation than from patriarchal oppression. The act is a transaction for the woman, not an emotional congression. Those who prostitute themselves from choice and for gratification as well as money are another matter, their outlook may well be shaped by society's influence on them but frankly, there are women who live in the same society and similar situations who DON'T turn to prostitution. It's too simplistic to call it oppression.
yes i've been understanding what you're saying. we just don't agree on the either/or.
i agree with some of what you're saying, but i can't spend my time writing pages on a message board.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
Wow - I never thought when I started a quick thread and got back to work that it would have so many replies next time I got back to it... or that it would have taken such a turn.
It seems like much of the thread has been dedicated to the themes of choice and patriarchy, so here are my initial thoughts on those subjects:
For one thing, many, many people who sell sex are forced into it against their will and/or are children. Of course there are also many prostitutes who are consenting adults and made the choice to do this. But "choice" is relative. And when one has limited viable options, we must reconsider how much weight we want to give to the idea that something was their choice.
For instance, there are women in the world who, when they have babies who will starve without government milk handouts, are told that they can't receive any free food for their babies unless they get their tubes tied. Of course they get their tubes tied, lest their babies starve, and this was their "choice".
There are women whose family members need extremely expensive, life-sustaining medical care, which they can only pay for by prostituting themselves. Do they "choose" to do it? Many do. What other viable options did they have? But should we just chalk it up to "she made her choice" and move on?
Just because people "choose" prostitution doesn't mean it's not a problem.
Regarding patriarchy, exploitation, and objectification of women... one thing I've noticed about this board is that whenever such subjects come up many of the men - particularly the ones who seem to pride themselves on being "enlightened" - become quite defensive. It's as if when someone observes that these things still exist, what the men hear is, "You, sir, are a misogynist pig!"
But please try to remember that this is not personal, it's not about you, no one is saying you have anything but the best intentions toward women. I don't believe anyone is even saying that any particular man, even the ones who buy sex, have an actual desire to objectify women.
I believe what is being said (or at least what I would like to say) is that the objectification of women still exists. It's still a problem. It's a social problem. And prostitution is one of its symptoms.
It's a sad state of affairs when women feel that selling their bodies for sex is their best option to get ahead or make ends meet. We need to address the circumstances that cause them to feel the need to do this.
It's also a sad state of affairs when men feel that using women merely for their own gratification (sexual or otherwise) is an acceptable practice. We need to address why they feel the desire to do this and why they think it's okay.
That's my $0.02 anyway.
exactly to all of this.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
It's a sad state of affairs when women feel that selling their bodies for sex is their best option to get ahead or make ends meet. We need to address the circumstances that cause them to feel the need to do this.
It's also a sad state of affairs when men feel that using women merely for their own gratification (sexual or otherwise) is an acceptable practice. We need to address why they feel the desire to do this and why they think it's okay.
i agreed with your post in it's entirety, but i wanted to focus on this in particular. again, 100% agreement and absolutely things SHOULD be done to alleviate/eliminate such issues, for ALL...not just women. however, while i agree that should be done and addressed, even if we start right NOT....and even if it were 100% done (a utopian dream, i realize)....do you believe prosititution will cease? personally, i don't think so. i think there will ALWAYS be some 'reason' and some people, male or female....who will turn to it....and someone who will pay for it. so yes, i do still believe it should be legalized, so it then can be regulated to some degree.
Wow - I never thought when I started a quick thread and got back to work that it would have so many replies next time I got back to it... or that it would have taken such a turn.
It seems like much of the thread has been dedicated to the themes of choice and patriarchy, so here are my initial thoughts on those subjects:
For one thing, many, many people who sell sex are forced into it against their will and/or are children. Of course there are also many prostitutes who are consenting adults and made the choice to do this. But "choice" is relative. And when one has limited viable options, we must reconsider how much weight we want to give to the idea that something was their choice.
For instance, there are women in the world who, when they have babies who will starve without government milk handouts, are told that they can't receive any free food for their babies unless they get their tubes tied. Of course they get their tubes tied, lest their babies starve, and this was their "choice".
There are women whose family members need extremely expensive, life-sustaining medical care, which they can only pay for by prostituting themselves. Do they "choose" to do it? Many do. What other viable options did they have? But should we just chalk it up to "she made her choice" and move on?
Just because people "choose" prostitution doesn't mean it's not a problem.
Regarding patriarchy, exploitation, and objectification of women... one thing I've noticed about this board is that whenever such subjects come up many of the men - particularly the ones who seem to pride themselves on being "enlightened" - become quite defensive. It's as if when someone observes that these things still exist, what the men hear is, "You, sir, are a misogynist pig!"
But please try to remember that this is not personal, it's not about you, no one is saying you have anything but the best intentions toward women. I don't believe anyone is even saying that any particular man, even the ones who buy sex, have an actual desire to objectify women.
I believe what is being said (or at least what I would like to say) is that the objectification of women still exists. It's still a problem. It's a social problem. And prostitution is one of its symptoms.
It's a sad state of affairs when women feel that selling their bodies for sex is their best option to get ahead or make ends meet. We need to address the circumstances that cause them to feel the need to do this.
It's also a sad state of affairs when men feel that using women merely for their own gratification (sexual or otherwise) is an acceptable practice. We need to address why they feel the desire to do this and why they think it's okay.
That's my $0.02 anyway.
I have no problem when a woman states that our patriarchal society objectifies women because that statement is true. My problem was the statement that women are oppressed in our society which is clearly not the case. Women, in our society, are not oppressed and all you have to do is look at how women are treated in other countries, some Middle Eastern countries come to mind, and you will se what true oppression is. Women in this country have the same rights and freedoms as men and while they are treated differently, which is unacceptable, it does not even come remotely close to being oppression. To me it is insulting to even state that when true oppression, of women, exists in other countries
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
this is why posting with you about this is POINTLESS. you seem to think you know exactly what i believe, like i'm some textbook feminist you studied. i NEVER SAID OBJECTIFICATION IS THE SOLE CAUSE. i do, however, believe it is one of many aspects of prostitution. i believe that in this patriarchal culture, sexual objectification of women exists, which is easily seen in prostitution and advertising. it's funny you're trying to claim you know that i believe objectification is the sole cause, when i don't call it a cause, or ever called it a cause in this thread, and you are only using one quote of mine to try and prove this (which is funny, mr. black/white). i see prostitution more as an aspect, a symptom, that if our culture did stop objectifying women, prostitution would change and wouldn't be the last resort it is now. for example, if women were not objectified perhaps they'd more respected and seen as equals, which could manifest into rare employment discrimination, equal pay for equal work, they wouldn't be as sexually harassed. in fact, women could get paid well and and excel in fields other than prostitution. i never said prostitution would completely vanish. perhaps the only mistake i made was engaging in this thread with dumbasses who have their own preconceived notions of what a feminist is like (re: statements about "hatred for the patriarchal society" feminists are man-haters, argh!) and their preconceived notions seem to cloud their comprehension.
Given that he is far from the only one that read your posts as saying that, maybe the problem is YOU. If that's not what you were saying, fine. I agree there are still a lot of battles to be fought before women gain true equality, though I don't think things are as dire as you paint them. Women excel in many fields other than prostitution already. And since this thread is about the legality of prostitution, perhaps you could offer your thoughts on that and start another thread if you want to talk more generally about sexual politics. Personally, I think legalizing prostitution stands a better chance of protecting the women who many be forced into the profession and would do nothing one way or the other to hurt the cause of women's advancement generally. Those are two different battles to me. Maybe I'm missing something though.
I have no problem when a woman states that our patriarchal society objectifies women because that statement is true. My problem was the statement that women are oppressed in our society which is clearly not the case. Women, in our society, are not oppressed and all you have to do is look at how women are treated in other countries, some Middle Eastern countries come to mind, and you will se what true oppression is. Women in this country have the same rights and freedoms as men and while they are treated differently, which is unacceptable, it does not even come remotely close to being oppression. To me it is insulting to even state that when true oppression, of women, exists in other countries
Exactly. I couldn't organize my thought to say it so succinctly, but it's exactly true. No doubt, women don't have total equality yet and still suffer from prejudice and objectification. But to call the state of women in the US today "oppressed" is a flippant insult to those that are TRULY oppressed around the world and completely undermines the credibility of those making such claims.
this is why posting with you about this is POINTLESS. you seem to think you know exactly what i believe, like i'm some textbook feminist you studied. i NEVER SAID OBJECTIFICATION IS THE SOLE CAUSE. i do, however, believe it is one of many aspects of prostitution. i believe that in this patriarchal culture, sexual objectification of women exists, which is easily seen in prostitution and advertising. it's funny you're trying to claim you know that i believe objectification is the sole cause, when i don't call it a cause, or ever called it a cause in this thread, and you are only using one quote of mine to try and prove this (which is funny, mr. black/white). i see prostitution more as an aspect, a symptom, that if our culture did stop objectifying women, prostitution would change and wouldn't be the last resort it is now. for example, if women were not objectified perhaps they'd more respected and seen as equals, which could manifest into rare employment discrimination, equal pay for equal work, they wouldn't be as sexually harassed. in fact, women could get paid well and and excel in fields other than prostitution. i never said prostitution would completely vanish. perhaps the only mistake i made was engaging in this thread with dumbasses who have their own preconceived notions of what a feminist is like (re: statements about "hatred for the patriarchal society" feminists are man-haters, argh!) and their preconceived notions seem to cloud their comprehension.
Dumbasses, nice one.
That one line is what triggered this discussion. The notion that prostitution would be stamped out if the partiarchal society would get rid of the objectification of women.
I'm saying that's a black and white vision of the world, because I believe many factors contribute to the existence of prostitution.
I said there will always be a market for it for reasons other than objectification of women.
I also said women get into prostitution for many, many reason, there are even prostitutes who love their job. In my opinion there will always be reasons why women get into prostitution even if men and women stop contributing to the objectification of women.
You call it a symptom rather than a cause. Well, they are synonymous. A symptom is an effect, a problem caused by a more serious and more important problem. By definition!
Now, you changed your stance from stamped out to 'change'.
Educate me; a girl/boy starts using drugs gets addicted. Needs to feed his habit, loses a lot of money, gets in debt with the wrong people and needs money badly. Not a lot of places hire drug addicts. Not even the boy would be able to pay of his huge debt with the substantial amount of extra money he makes. So what's an easy solution? Well, there isn't one. Stealing and of course something you can always sell; your body. It's not seen as a last resort, it is a last resort. Now tell me how this is a symptom of the objectification of women? Or tell me how this would change if women weren't being objectified anymore?
If you take away employment discrimination and inequal pay, will that change anything about the wage people make in the profession of flipping burgers?
How would anything change for an addict, or anyone who desperately needs money but doesn't have them means?
Women already get paid well and excel in fields other than prostitution, you know. Yes, there's a gender gap, that doesn't mean average jobs don't get paid well enough to keep women from going into prostitution.
No, you never said it would completely vanish. You said 'stamp out.' I never meant to twist your words like that.
Regarding patriarchy, exploitation, and objectification of women... one thing I've noticed about this board is that whenever such subjects come up many of the men - particularly the ones who seem to pride themselves on being "enlightened" - become quite defensive. It's as if when someone observes that these things still exist, what the men hear is, "You, sir, are a misogynist pig!"
But please try to remember that this is not personal, it's not about you, no one is saying you have anything but the best intentions toward women. I don't believe anyone is even saying that any particular man, even the ones who buy sex, have an actual desire to objectify women.
I believe what is being said (or at least what I would like to say) is that the objectification of women still exists. It's still a problem. It's a social problem. And prostitution is one of its symptoms.
That's kinda condescending, telling men what they can and cannot find offensive. I generally agree with the rest of your points, but it's worth noting that people have not responded to anyone in this thread the way they have VG. To me, that indicates that VG is coming off as saying exactly what you describe above. It was confrontational, accusatory, judgmental, and aggressive. And people responded in kind. Maybe we misread it, but when several people misread the same thing the same way, that indicates that the problem lies with the one making the statement and how they made it, not that everyone else was wrong and should have read her mind.
I'll be first to admit that women don't have the same status in society. In fact, during the presidential primaries when everyone was talking about how much of a factor Barack's race was, I was arguing that Hillary had a far greater uphill battle because I felt sex discrimination is far more powerful than racial discrimination. It's not for nothing that women were 50 years behind African-Americans in getting the vote.
But her post read like the boy who cried wolf. Maybe it was just poorly written, but it read like any many who visited a prostitute did so chiefly in a conscious manner to degrade a woman. Then it went on to argue that women are oppressed because they can't get good jobs, which is absurd. Yes, there is some glass ceiling and pay disparity. But women are making huge strides and to totally ignore and discount all the progress that has been made and throw around oppression to describe problems that 75% of the women in the world would kill to have is ridiculous.
My defensive reaction wasn't to the idea that women are objectified or still treated unequally. It was to the idea that men purchase prostitutes maliciously to hurt them or that women or are actively and legally oppressed. The first step to overcoming the problems women face is to be realistic about what they are, not hyperbolic.
It's also a sad state of affairs when men feel that using women merely for their own gratification (sexual or otherwise) is an acceptable practice. We need to address why they feel the desire to do this and why they think it's okay.
I disagree. I see nothing wrong with a human being wanting sex for the sake of sex, male or female. As long as it is consenting on both sides, I don't see what the big deal is about a woman going to a bar and taking some guy home she never wants to speak to again. I see no problem with a man going to a brothel and paying for a prostitute. It's an utterly human desire and as long as everyone involved has had the chance to consent to what's going on, I'm not going to say that men should only have sex if it's some loving gesture to a woman he feels strongly for, or vice versa.
Furthermore, I am convinced that if we could wave a wand and make all latent sexism disappear tomorrow... shatter the glass ceiling, get women equal pay, end sexual harassment in the workplace forever, stop all objectifying practices in the media... we would still have prostitution. We are highly evolved animals, but animals nonetheless. And the fact is that the desire for sex exists before and after any societal objectification or prejudice. The fact that we can build a society where we can restrain ourselves in situations where sex is inappropriate does not make that go away, so there will always be a demand for prostitutes, and a supply as well.
If you present prostitution as a problem caused by the patriarchal society and the objectification of women then I think you are seeing things in black and white.
Well, patriarchy encompasses more than just objectification. It includes all oppression of women, which addresses your other reasons women choose prostitution.
Hey, I'm just trying to get a feminist to admit her mistake.
Exactly. Maybe if you weren't so focused on arguing with feminists all the time and instead put that energy into fixing the problems that exist in the world, we could make the world a better place. But it's the feminists who are the enemy, not the social structure that oppresses people, right. :rolleyes:
It also happens to be sad when men feel they need to sell their bodies, scb.
I agree. And you'll note that: a) There are vastly fewer male prostitutes than female ones, and b) whether the prostitute is male or female, it's still nearly always men who are buying.
I have no problem when a woman states that our patriarchal society objectifies women because that statement is true. My problem was the statement that women are oppressed in our society which is clearly not the case. Women, in our society, are not oppressed and all you have to do is look at how women are treated in other countries, some Middle Eastern countries come to mind, and you will se what true oppression is. Women in this country have the same rights and freedoms as men and while they are treated differently, which is unacceptable, it does not even come remotely close to being oppression. To me it is insulting to even state that when true oppression, of women, exists in other countries
"true oppression" makes me think you're either oppressed or not. it's only real if it's severe. but there are levels and different forms of oppression (like internalized). basically, oppression is broader structural features of society controlling, constraining, or coercing women in terms of male power (when you're talking about oppression in this sense, otherwise you could talk about racial oppression, but it is all about who has the power and control). are women heavily oppressed in areas of southwest asia? absolutely. but women (and people of color, and others) are oppressed here too. just like our culture is different, the levels of oppression are different. but when one group has power over another and the other group is constrained, there is oppression.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
this is why posting with you about this is POINTLESS. you seem to think you know exactly what i believe, like i'm some textbook feminist you studied. i NEVER SAID OBJECTIFICATION IS THE SOLE CAUSE. i do, however, believe it is one of many aspects of prostitution. i believe that in this patriarchal culture, sexual objectification of women exists, which is easily seen in prostitution and advertising. it's funny you're trying to claim you know that i believe objectification is the sole cause, when i don't call it a cause, or ever called it a cause in this thread, and you are only using one quote of mine to try and prove this (which is funny, mr. black/white). i see prostitution more as an aspect, a symptom, that if our culture did stop objectifying women, prostitution would change and wouldn't be the last resort it is now. for example, if women were not objectified perhaps they'd more respected and seen as equals, which could manifest into rare employment discrimination, equal pay for equal work, they wouldn't be as sexually harassed. in fact, women could get paid well and and excel in fields other than prostitution. i never said prostitution would completely vanish. perhaps the only mistake i made was engaging in this thread with dumbasses who have their own preconceived notions of what a feminist is like (re: statements about "hatred for the patriarchal society" feminists are man-haters, argh!) and their preconceived notions seem to cloud their comprehension.
I agree with you about the futility of having a discussion with people who only hear what they want to hear from people they have labeled as feminists.
Also, to add to your point about objectificaiton: Perhaps if women were not objectified we wouldn't learn from a young age that our sexuality is our most valuable asset, and therefore resort to selling that when we need money or affirmation.
"true oppression" makes me think you're either oppressed or not. it's only real if it's severe. but there are levels and different forms of oppression (like internalized). basically, oppression is broader structural features of society controlling, constraining, or coercing women in terms of male power (when you're talking about oppression in this sense, otherwise you could talk about racial oppression, but it is all about who has the power and control). are women heavily oppressed in areas of southwest asia? absolutely. but women (and people of color, and others) are oppressed here too. just like our culture is different, the levels of oppression are different. but when one group has power over another and the other group is constrained, there is oppression.
When at the age of 13 your genital are mutilated, or you have to cover your face and walk 10 paces behind your husband, or you are not allowed to pursue an education or leave your home without a male family member then come talk to me about female oppression.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
i agreed with your post in it's entirety, but i wanted to focus on this in particular. again, 100% agreement and absolutely things SHOULD be done to alleviate/eliminate such issues, for ALL...not just women. however, while i agree that should be done and addressed, even if we start right NOT....and even if it were 100% done (a utopian dream, i realize)....do you believe prosititution will cease? personally, i don't think so. i think there will ALWAYS be some 'reason' and some people, male or female....who will turn to it....and someone who will pay for it. so yes, i do still believe it should be legalized, so it then can be regulated to some degree.
No, I don't believe prostitution will ever cease 100%. And, yes, I agree that it should be legalized, for the sole purpose of regulating the industry in a way that will protect the sex workers. (Note: Although I think selling sex should be legalized/regulated, I'm not sure I think buying sex should be legal. What do you think about that one?)
Edit: When I say prostitution will never completely cease, it's because I believe the objectification/commodification of women/sexuality will never completely cease. It's not that I think prostitution can exist in the absense of objectification; since I believe prostitution is objectifying exchange, I don't think it can exist without objectification. Does that make sense?
Exactly. Maybe if you weren't so focused on arguing with feminists all the time and instead put that energy into fixing the problems that exist in the world, we could make the world a better place. But it's the feminists who are the enemy, not the social structure that oppresses people, right. :rolleyes:
And maybe if the feminists weren't so focused on finding "oppression" in any tragedy that has to do with women, we would have a better chance of truly identifying the problems and trying to solve them. But I'm sorry, when you tell me that a businessman who hasn't had sex in month pays thousands of dollars to a woman who by her own admission willingly became an escort because it was an easy and safe way for her to pay for college on her way to a good job... when you say she is oppressed, and I read in the paper the next day that a woman was stoned to death in Iran for being raped, it's hard to take you seriously. Boy who cried wolf syndrome. And it means that the whole movement gets ignored and your complaints of unfair treatment are seen as probably meritless histrionics from someone who uses the same word to describe a woman winning a multi-million dollar harassment lawsuit that she uses to describe a woman killed under sharia law for holding a man's hand.
I agree. And you'll note that: a) There are vastly fewer male prostitutes than female ones, and b) whether the prostitute is male or female, it's still nearly always men who are buying.
That IS interesting. Why? Because it indicates that prostitution is not some effort to oppress women. If objectifying women was all it was about, then why would anyone buy a male prostitute? It indicates exactly what many men have said here all along... guys are horny and are willing to pay for sex with their partner of choice rather than investing the time and energy to find a serious partner. Men going to a prostitute has little to do with oppression, or holding women down. It's essentially just a result of being tired of masturbating and wanting the real thing without the strings attached. So it's not sexist, because men objectify men AND women equally when it comes to sex. And I'm sorry, but that's millenia of biological urges at work and has nothing to do with trying to dehumanize anyone or truly believing women are objects or inferior. It's just that men are programmed that when they want sex, they should try to have it so they can get back to thinking
When at the age of 13 your genital are mutilated, or you have to cover your face and walk 10 paces behind your husband, or you are not allowed to pursue an education or leave your home without a male family member then come talk to me about female oppression.
uhhhhhhh, when you grow a vagina come talk to me about sexism and objectification?
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
Comments
I haven't done much research on the topic, but expanding on whichever model places emphasis on women's safety is the only choice...common decency and morals are subjective, so unless you can have everyone conform to your standards, the problem will not go away.
from what I can tell, based on the history of Pickton in Vancouver, and the killer still stalking my city (Edmonton), the women in brothels/massage parlours are the safest, escorts next... the street girls are totally vulnerable.
The problem here is that the street girls, the ones in the most danger, would never get a job in a parlour or for an agency, because normally they are the ones with dependency issues, psychological problems etc...
Still, this doesn't change the fact that it is not going away, and like drug prohibition, I have to go with harm reduction over sweeping it under the rug or arresting people for a personal decision.
It seems like much of the thread has been dedicated to the themes of choice and patriarchy, so here are my initial thoughts on those subjects:
For one thing, many, many people who sell sex are forced into it against their will and/or are children. Of course there are also many prostitutes who are consenting adults and made the choice to do this. But "choice" is relative. And when one has limited viable options, we must reconsider how much weight we want to give to the idea that something was their choice.
For instance, there are women in the world who, when they have babies who will starve without government milk handouts, are told that they can't receive any free food for their babies unless they get their tubes tied. Of course they get their tubes tied, lest their babies starve, and this was their "choice".
There are women whose family members need extremely expensive, life-sustaining medical care, which they can only pay for by prostituting themselves. Do they "choose" to do it? Many do. What other viable options did they have? But should we just chalk it up to "she made her choice" and move on?
Just because people "choose" prostitution doesn't mean it's not a problem.
Regarding patriarchy, exploitation, and objectification of women... one thing I've noticed about this board is that whenever such subjects come up many of the men - particularly the ones who seem to pride themselves on being "enlightened" - become quite defensive. It's as if when someone observes that these things still exist, what the men hear is, "You, sir, are a misogynist pig!"
But please try to remember that this is not personal, it's not about you, no one is saying you have anything but the best intentions toward women. I don't believe anyone is even saying that any particular man, even the ones who buy sex, have an actual desire to objectify women.
I believe what is being said (or at least what I would like to say) is that the objectification of women still exists. It's still a problem. It's a social problem. And prostitution is one of its symptoms.
It's a sad state of affairs when women feel that selling their bodies for sex is their best option to get ahead or make ends meet. We need to address the circumstances that cause them to feel the need to do this.
It's also a sad state of affairs when men feel that using women merely for their own gratification (sexual or otherwise) is an acceptable practice. We need to address why they feel the desire to do this and why they think it's okay.
That's my $0.02 anyway.
Man ain't meant to work
C'mon build a machine!
So we can sleep and make love deeper
Later we can dance and we can drink!
Man ain't meant to work
C'mon build a machine!
So we can live for our own pleasure
Please yourself!
Please your queens!
Early morning the sun is yawning
I am not kind yet
I am certain
I have no doubt
Life is for playing
Days like these I hardly disagree
So what!
That's my conclusion
I think I'm gonna dig myself now
(this is the second Jane's Addiction song this thread has made me think of
RIP Cindy Beck.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
so sorry to hear that angelica :(
I can't imagine what it would be like to hear those stories and know one of the victims...the 'man' is a monster.
I can't imagine what Cindy endured at his hands...I do, however, have some insight into what she endured in her life. She was treated inhumanely by many... she was the "town tramp" and the treatment she received was deplorable. Even though her and I were pregnant teenagers at the same time, she at times was treated poorly by me as well. I still deal with that. It's surreal where she ended up....and yet, at the same time it somehow makes tragic sense. :(
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I don't know, depends on how you look at it. I see it as a choice. Yes, many are forced into it by circumstances but it's still a choice.
If you present prostitution as a problem caused by the patriarchal society and the objectification of women then I think you are seeing things in black and white. As much as you (or at least VictoryGin) might like to believe it, not all of the worlds problems are created by men. There's more to it.
Prostitution exists for many reasons. There are prostitutes who love their job. There are women who go into prostitution because of easy money although other options are available. Perhaps they need a lot more money than they can ever earn with any other job (within their options, usually low paid jobs), yes, even if they earned the same amount men make.
And there are many reasons why people visit prostitutes. It's not just because of the objectification of women. Again, to paint it that was is just painting it black and white.
So when someone suggest that once we get rid of the objectification of women prostitution will magically disappear there will be a lot of people responding. Don't blame the guys here for actually stating the obvious.
You'll also notice that all of these "enlightened" men :rolleyes: have acknowlegded objectification exists. They don't try to deny it in any way. VictoryGin didn't "observe" that it exists. She linked it to prostitution as if it's the sole cause.
"Oldest profession in the world. It will never be stamped out."
VG: "hey maybe it will be stamped out when our patriarchal culture stops objectifying women."
Yes, she also later claimed to be merely talking about the existence of objectification.
Hey, I'm just trying to get a feminist to admit her mistake. This hatred for the patriarchal society is clouding her vision.
Yes, it's sad. But it's a reality. It also happens to be sad when men feel they need to sell their bodies, scb. Feminists :rolleyes:
But you are right, we need to address the circumstances and as I've pointed out before, and many other as well, the circumstances aren't all caused by the partiarchal society or the objectification of women. So that's why VictoryGin's misleading feminist rhetoric was addressed the way it was, not because us men hear "You, sir, are a misogynist pig!" We realise there's more to it. It's not black and white.
Again, don't forget to mention women who use men. You sexist, you!
I disagree, by the way. It is acceptable and I think it's ok. But I can assure you not everyone who visits a prostitute feels it's acceptable or ok.
Why they have this "desire"? You're a smart girl, I'm sure you can think of tons of reasons why they have these "desire". A lot of these reasons are very hard to address.
naděje umírá poslední
Even when the circumstances that bring one to the profession are deplorable, and even when it's the best choice...it is always a choice, and it's it always a choice where the person who makes it must accept the consequences of the choice. Life always responds to such a choice with the exact consequences of it (like with any choice), no exceptions.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
That's my thinking. Wouldn't legalization reduce the number forced onto the streets or craigslist for this? Say what you will about how gross the red light district in Amsterdam is (I personally loved it, hehe), it sure seemed to keep things concentrated and contained. The rest of the city was very nice.
excellent post.
i DO think it should be legal. yes, absolutely there are a whole host of 'grey areas' mixed in that assessment, but there exists grey areas even with it illegal, b/c let's face it....it DOES exist either way. so if it's legal, perhaps it can be more 'safe'.....? and yes, it must be MEN and/or WOMEN, legal age....18 or older.....consentual sex for money.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
this is why posting with you about this is POINTLESS. you seem to think you know exactly what i believe, like i'm some textbook feminist you studied. i NEVER SAID OBJECTIFICATION IS THE SOLE CAUSE. i do, however, believe it is one of many aspects of prostitution. i believe that in this patriarchal culture, sexual objectification of women exists, which is easily seen in prostitution and advertising. it's funny you're trying to claim you know that i believe objectification is the sole cause, when i don't call it a cause, or ever called it a cause in this thread, and you are only using one quote of mine to try and prove this (which is funny, mr. black/white). i see prostitution more as an aspect, a symptom, that if our culture did stop objectifying women, prostitution would change and wouldn't be the last resort it is now. for example, if women were not objectified perhaps they'd more respected and seen as equals, which could manifest into rare employment discrimination, equal pay for equal work, they wouldn't be as sexually harassed. in fact, women could get paid well and and excel in fields other than prostitution. i never said prostitution would completely vanish. perhaps the only mistake i made was engaging in this thread with dumbasses who have their own preconceived notions of what a feminist is like (re: statements about "hatred for the patriarchal society" feminists are man-haters, argh!) and their preconceived notions seem to cloud their comprehension.
cross the river to the eastside
yes i've been understanding what you're saying. we just don't agree on the either/or.
i agree with some of what you're saying, but i can't spend my time writing pages on a message board.
cross the river to the eastside
exactly to all of this.
cross the river to the eastside
i agreed with your post in it's entirety, but i wanted to focus on this in particular. again, 100% agreement and absolutely things SHOULD be done to alleviate/eliminate such issues, for ALL...not just women. however, while i agree that should be done and addressed, even if we start right NOT....and even if it were 100% done (a utopian dream, i realize)....do you believe prosititution will cease? personally, i don't think so. i think there will ALWAYS be some 'reason' and some people, male or female....who will turn to it....and someone who will pay for it. so yes, i do still believe it should be legalized, so it then can be regulated to some degree.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
I have no problem when a woman states that our patriarchal society objectifies women because that statement is true. My problem was the statement that women are oppressed in our society which is clearly not the case. Women, in our society, are not oppressed and all you have to do is look at how women are treated in other countries, some Middle Eastern countries come to mind, and you will se what true oppression is. Women in this country have the same rights and freedoms as men and while they are treated differently, which is unacceptable, it does not even come remotely close to being oppression. To me it is insulting to even state that when true oppression, of women, exists in other countries
Given that he is far from the only one that read your posts as saying that, maybe the problem is YOU. If that's not what you were saying, fine. I agree there are still a lot of battles to be fought before women gain true equality, though I don't think things are as dire as you paint them. Women excel in many fields other than prostitution already. And since this thread is about the legality of prostitution, perhaps you could offer your thoughts on that and start another thread if you want to talk more generally about sexual politics. Personally, I think legalizing prostitution stands a better chance of protecting the women who many be forced into the profession and would do nothing one way or the other to hurt the cause of women's advancement generally. Those are two different battles to me. Maybe I'm missing something though.
Exactly. I couldn't organize my thought to say it so succinctly, but it's exactly true. No doubt, women don't have total equality yet and still suffer from prejudice and objectification. But to call the state of women in the US today "oppressed" is a flippant insult to those that are TRULY oppressed around the world and completely undermines the credibility of those making such claims.
Dumbasses, nice one.
That one line is what triggered this discussion. The notion that prostitution would be stamped out if the partiarchal society would get rid of the objectification of women.
I'm saying that's a black and white vision of the world, because I believe many factors contribute to the existence of prostitution.
I said there will always be a market for it for reasons other than objectification of women.
I also said women get into prostitution for many, many reason, there are even prostitutes who love their job. In my opinion there will always be reasons why women get into prostitution even if men and women stop contributing to the objectification of women.
You call it a symptom rather than a cause. Well, they are synonymous. A symptom is an effect, a problem caused by a more serious and more important problem. By definition!
Now, you changed your stance from stamped out to 'change'.
Educate me; a girl/boy starts using drugs gets addicted. Needs to feed his habit, loses a lot of money, gets in debt with the wrong people and needs money badly. Not a lot of places hire drug addicts. Not even the boy would be able to pay of his huge debt with the substantial amount of extra money he makes. So what's an easy solution? Well, there isn't one. Stealing and of course something you can always sell; your body. It's not seen as a last resort, it is a last resort. Now tell me how this is a symptom of the objectification of women? Or tell me how this would change if women weren't being objectified anymore?
If you take away employment discrimination and inequal pay, will that change anything about the wage people make in the profession of flipping burgers?
How would anything change for an addict, or anyone who desperately needs money but doesn't have them means?
Women already get paid well and excel in fields other than prostitution, you know. Yes, there's a gender gap, that doesn't mean average jobs don't get paid well enough to keep women from going into prostitution.
No, you never said it would completely vanish. You said 'stamp out.' I never meant to twist your words like that.
naděje umírá poslední
That's kinda condescending, telling men what they can and cannot find offensive. I generally agree with the rest of your points, but it's worth noting that people have not responded to anyone in this thread the way they have VG. To me, that indicates that VG is coming off as saying exactly what you describe above. It was confrontational, accusatory, judgmental, and aggressive. And people responded in kind. Maybe we misread it, but when several people misread the same thing the same way, that indicates that the problem lies with the one making the statement and how they made it, not that everyone else was wrong and should have read her mind.
I'll be first to admit that women don't have the same status in society. In fact, during the presidential primaries when everyone was talking about how much of a factor Barack's race was, I was arguing that Hillary had a far greater uphill battle because I felt sex discrimination is far more powerful than racial discrimination. It's not for nothing that women were 50 years behind African-Americans in getting the vote.
But her post read like the boy who cried wolf. Maybe it was just poorly written, but it read like any many who visited a prostitute did so chiefly in a conscious manner to degrade a woman. Then it went on to argue that women are oppressed because they can't get good jobs, which is absurd. Yes, there is some glass ceiling and pay disparity. But women are making huge strides and to totally ignore and discount all the progress that has been made and throw around oppression to describe problems that 75% of the women in the world would kill to have is ridiculous.
My defensive reaction wasn't to the idea that women are objectified or still treated unequally. It was to the idea that men purchase prostitutes maliciously to hurt them or that women or are actively and legally oppressed. The first step to overcoming the problems women face is to be realistic about what they are, not hyperbolic.
I disagree. I see nothing wrong with a human being wanting sex for the sake of sex, male or female. As long as it is consenting on both sides, I don't see what the big deal is about a woman going to a bar and taking some guy home she never wants to speak to again. I see no problem with a man going to a brothel and paying for a prostitute. It's an utterly human desire and as long as everyone involved has had the chance to consent to what's going on, I'm not going to say that men should only have sex if it's some loving gesture to a woman he feels strongly for, or vice versa.
Furthermore, I am convinced that if we could wave a wand and make all latent sexism disappear tomorrow... shatter the glass ceiling, get women equal pay, end sexual harassment in the workplace forever, stop all objectifying practices in the media... we would still have prostitution. We are highly evolved animals, but animals nonetheless. And the fact is that the desire for sex exists before and after any societal objectification or prejudice. The fact that we can build a society where we can restrain ourselves in situations where sex is inappropriate does not make that go away, so there will always be a demand for prostitutes, and a supply as well.
Fine, see it as a choice. But you didn't address my second point in what you quoted: Just because it's a "choice" doesn't mean it's not a problem.
Well, patriarchy encompasses more than just objectification. It includes all oppression of women, which addresses your other reasons women choose prostitution.
You are perfectly exemplifying my point. No one has said "All the world's problems are created by men," and yet that's still what you choose to hear.
I specifically said no one is accusing johns of wanting to objectify women, and yet you are still being defensive against this imaginary accusation.
Don't roll your eyes at me. I was quoting one of the "enlightened" men you're so defensive of.
Exactly. Maybe if you weren't so focused on arguing with feminists all the time and instead put that energy into fixing the problems that exist in the world, we could make the world a better place. But it's the feminists who are the enemy, not the social structure that oppresses people, right. :rolleyes:
Once again, are you saying that since it's a reality we shouldn't want to change it?
I agree. And you'll note that: a) There are vastly fewer male prostitutes than female ones, and b) whether the prostitute is male or female, it's still nearly always men who are buying.
"true oppression" makes me think you're either oppressed or not. it's only real if it's severe. but there are levels and different forms of oppression (like internalized). basically, oppression is broader structural features of society controlling, constraining, or coercing women in terms of male power (when you're talking about oppression in this sense, otherwise you could talk about racial oppression, but it is all about who has the power and control). are women heavily oppressed in areas of southwest asia? absolutely. but women (and people of color, and others) are oppressed here too. just like our culture is different, the levels of oppression are different. but when one group has power over another and the other group is constrained, there is oppression.
cross the river to the eastside
I agree with you about the futility of having a discussion with people who only hear what they want to hear from people they have labeled as feminists.
Also, to add to your point about objectificaiton: Perhaps if women were not objectified we wouldn't learn from a young age that our sexuality is our most valuable asset, and therefore resort to selling that when we need money or affirmation.
When at the age of 13 your genital are mutilated, or you have to cover your face and walk 10 paces behind your husband, or you are not allowed to pursue an education or leave your home without a male family member then come talk to me about female oppression.
No, I don't believe prostitution will ever cease 100%. And, yes, I agree that it should be legalized, for the sole purpose of regulating the industry in a way that will protect the sex workers. (Note: Although I think selling sex should be legalized/regulated, I'm not sure I think buying sex should be legal. What do you think about that one?)
Edit: When I say prostitution will never completely cease, it's because I believe the objectification/commodification of women/sexuality will never completely cease. It's not that I think prostitution can exist in the absense of objectification; since I believe prostitution is objectifying exchange, I don't think it can exist without objectification. Does that make sense?
And maybe if the feminists weren't so focused on finding "oppression" in any tragedy that has to do with women, we would have a better chance of truly identifying the problems and trying to solve them. But I'm sorry, when you tell me that a businessman who hasn't had sex in month pays thousands of dollars to a woman who by her own admission willingly became an escort because it was an easy and safe way for her to pay for college on her way to a good job... when you say she is oppressed, and I read in the paper the next day that a woman was stoned to death in Iran for being raped, it's hard to take you seriously. Boy who cried wolf syndrome. And it means that the whole movement gets ignored and your complaints of unfair treatment are seen as probably meritless histrionics from someone who uses the same word to describe a woman winning a multi-million dollar harassment lawsuit that she uses to describe a woman killed under sharia law for holding a man's hand.
That IS interesting. Why? Because it indicates that prostitution is not some effort to oppress women. If objectifying women was all it was about, then why would anyone buy a male prostitute? It indicates exactly what many men have said here all along... guys are horny and are willing to pay for sex with their partner of choice rather than investing the time and energy to find a serious partner. Men going to a prostitute has little to do with oppression, or holding women down. It's essentially just a result of being tired of masturbating and wanting the real thing without the strings attached. So it's not sexist, because men objectify men AND women equally when it comes to sex. And I'm sorry, but that's millenia of biological urges at work and has nothing to do with trying to dehumanize anyone or truly believing women are objects or inferior. It's just that men are programmed that when they want sex, they should try to have it so they can get back to thinking
uhhhhhhh, when you grow a vagina come talk to me about sexism and objectification?
cross the river to the eastside