that's not objectification, it's socialization. on average, boys in the US are socialized to not display certain emotions such as fear or sadness. it is however more "normal" to recognize anger, which is an emotion, in boys. this is getting off topic though.
It's our current method of socialization to in a widespread sense objectify each other.
We each do it any time we treat one another like an object without feelings.
The psychological basis is that we've been objectified. We are out of touch with our own emotions, and therefore we automatically gloss over the emotions of others, because we don't have the ability to recognize or process them in ourselves or others (to a large degree). And we use any method/vice possible to deal with (deny) our emotions...TV watching, substance abuse, porn/sex addiction, workaholism etc...It's very clearly psychologically recognized as a base problem with humanity at this point in time.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Sure they are, and I fully support their right to hire a prostitute to satisfy those urges and I'm not going to whine about how objectified I feel because some women do just that.
Good point. So why are YOU the oppressed ones? I'm the one who's being oppressed by not being allowed to feel fear or sadness!
You most definitely are. At great costs to our societies...being out of touch with your whole brain functioning -- being discouraged from birth from integrating the 'feminine' intelligences of emotion and intuition...And therefore our male-dominated-functioning societies continue to operate in an imbalanced manner. And we consider it normal. it is normal...it's just not healthy. And we all pay the price.
Prostitutes objectifying themselves, and others objectifying them is a symptom of a larger issue--an issue which is very much on topic.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Likewise it would appear that you've not understood what I've been saying either so I guess we're both losing here.
are you saying that sex does not have anything to do with gender or sexuality and instead it's about commodification? sex is a product divorced of gender or sexuality implications? and because of this anyone who commodifies sex is exploiting themselves?
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
Sure they are, and I fully support their right to hire a prostitute to satisfy those urges and I'm not going to whine about how objectified I feel because some women do just that.
if it's about being horny then because more men use prostitutes than women, does that make men hornier than women?
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
if it's about being horny then because more men use prostitutes than women, does that make men hornier than women?
Or lonelier, more desperate... whatever, you know. Not everyone goes to prostitutes because they're extremely horny fucks who love to objectify women. Has it occurred to you that they are just people. They have their owns lives, own histories and emotions. They could have several issues and plenty of reasons to visit a prostitute.
Likewise, despite the complete oppression of women, many women just choose it because it's an easy way to cash, just like selling drugs is or stealing stuff. Perhaps for some of these women 'dignity' isn't their priority but getting enough money to feed their habit or maybe even their kid.
if it's about being horny then because more men use prostitutes than women, does that make men hornier than women?
1. Probably to an extent. Testosterone is medically heavily linked to sexual desire and men have more of it.
2. Even beyond that, women don't need prostitutes as much. They can go to any bar and get a guy with relative ease compared to a guy.
3. Even if women have the same desire, they seem to have more restraint. The fact is, sex is riskier for women. Their physiology leaves them more susceptible to contracting STD's. They could get pregnant. So women are generally more particular and choosy about partners. Thus, even if the levels of desire are the same, the demand for prostitutes might not be just because women rein in those desires and men are all too happy to indulge them.
1. Probably to an extent. Testosterone is medically heavily linked to sexual desire and men have more of it.
2. Even beyond that, women don't need prostitutes as much. They can go to any bar and get a guy with relative ease compared to a guy.
3. Even if women have the same desire, they seem to have more restraint. The fact is, sex is riskier for women. Their physiology leaves them more susceptible to contracting STD's. They could get pregnant. So women are generally more particular and choosy about partners. Thus, even if the levels of desire are the same, the demand for prostitutes might not be just because women rein in those desires and men are all too happy to indulge them.
Or lonelier, more desperate... whatever, you know. Not everyone goes to prostitutes because they're extremely horny fucks who love to objectify women. Has it occurred to you that they are just people. They have their owns lives, own histories and emotions. They could have several issues and plenty of reasons to visit a prostitute.
Likewise, despite the complete oppression of women, many women just choose it because it's an easy way to cash, just like selling drugs is or stealing stuff. Perhaps for some of these women 'dignity' isn't their priority but getting enough money to feed their habit or maybe even their kid.
Some women even enjoy their job as a prostitute.
that question was to unifiedscene. i wasn't implying anything you're saying above.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
1. Probably to an extent. Testosterone is medically heavily linked to sexual desire and men have more of it.
2. Even beyond that, women don't need prostitutes as much. They can go to any bar and get a guy with relative ease compared to a guy.
3. Even if women have the same desire, they seem to have more restraint. The fact is, sex is riskier for women. Their physiology leaves them more susceptible to contracting STD's. They could get pregnant. So women are generally more particular and choosy about partners. Thus, even if the levels of desire are the same, the demand for prostitutes might not be just because women rein in those desires and men are all too happy to indulge them.
wow. you're posting this? okay. i've stayed well beyond what i should have. there is a lot of real academic research i could post but i need to spend my time doing my real work now. i know this isn't going anywhere.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
that question was to unifiedscene. i wasn't implying anything you're saying above.
On the contrary, you have explicitly said in this thread exactly what he wrote in that post: that men go to prostitutes because they want to objectify women. Don't try to back down from that now.
wow. you're posting this? okay. i've stayed well beyond what i should have. there is a lot of real academic research i could post but i need to spend my time doing my real work now. i know this isn't going anywhere.
Somehow I knew you'd have no response to that. But I can sympathize. I often like to pretend that reality isn't true because it doesn't suit my agenda too.
that question was to unifiedscene. i wasn't implying anything you're saying above.
No, but you've been implying this entire thread that prostitution is the spawn of the male-dominated world that loves to objectify women.
My points are the clientele of prostitutes consists of many different folks, not just horny bastards. So, no even if the patriarchal society with its objectification of women perishes prostitution will still be around because that's certainly not the only reason why men go to prostitutes.
Secondly, women are not forced into it. It's a choice. They are adults and they choose to do it. If you think every prostitute is forced into it because the entire society oppresses women, so be it. I disagree and I think most reasonable people would as well.
People are responsible for their own actions. I can definitely understand why they do certain things from murder, to theft to going into prostitution, not that I would ever equate the latter with the former two. Even when the objectification of women stops (by women too, by the way - just a freakin' guilty) I say it'll be there because those people have other priorities, their dignity doesn't matter when they have starving kids at home or going fucking mad without their drug of choice.
If prostitution is an option do you think they'd make a lot of money with other jobs, even if they had the same money as men?
So, with a market - remember the other reasons besides men being horny bastards that objectify women - and always someone to offer because it IS a last resort (or a choice regardless of circumstances) there will always be prostitution.
Somehow I knew you'd have no response to that. But I can sympathize. I often like to pretend that reality isn't true because it doesn't suit my agenda too.
just so it's clear, it's because your post was fucking retarded.
again to be clear, collin didn't say this exactly: that men go to prostitutes because they want to objectify women. i object to the "horny fucks who love to" portion of his real statement. but you probably knew that. you're just being an asshole.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
wow. you're posting this? okay. i've stayed well beyond what i should have. there is a lot of real academic research i could post but i need to spend my time doing my real work now. i know this isn't going anywhere.
Wow, yes, I am.
Until you show me your real academic research I'll just have to take Anne Campbell's word for it, whose articles, by the way, have been published in peer reviewed academic journals.
Hardly a credible source, I understand you complete amazement.
So whenever you find the time post those real studies, I'll gladly read them.
just so it's clear, it's because your post was fucking retarded.
again to be clear, collin didn't say this exactly: that men go to prostitutes because they want to objectify women. i object to the "horny fucks who love to" portion of his real statement. but you probably knew that. you're just being an asshole.
My post? I said I knew you wouldn't have a response to the link he posted about women and casual sex. Because women like you, the ones giving feminists a bad name by screaming bloody murder and blaming every ill in the world on the patriarchy oppressing women, you like to pretend that there are no differences between men and women. And it's funny to observe the lengths you will go to to turn a blind eye to overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
And it sounds like you're playing semantics. He took liberties with his language to demonstrate just how absurd your stance on this matter is. There is a lot more to prostitution than some insidious concerted plot by men to keep women down. Most of it is as simple as: guys want to have sex and like being able to have it as easily as possible. For all the shit you've been spewing about men objectifying women, you sure are quick to throw out stereotypes and demean men for universally being objectifying pigs.
No, but you've been implying this entire thread that prostitution is the spawn of the male-dominated world that loves to objectify women.
My points are the clientele of prostitutes consists of many different folks, not just horny bastards. So, no even if the patriarchal society with its objectification of women perishes prostitution will still be around because that's certainly not the only reason why men go to prostitutes.
Secondly, women are not forced into it. It's a choice. They are adults and they choose to do it. If you think every prostitute is forced into it because the entire society oppresses women, so be it. I disagree and I think most reasonable people would as well.
People are responsible for their own actions. I can definitely understand why they do certain things from murder, to theft to going into prostitution, not that I would ever equate the latter with the former two. Even when the objectification of women stops (by women too, by the way - just a freakin' guilty) I say it'll be there because those people have other priorities, their dignity doesn't matter when they have starving kids at home or going fucking mad without their drug of choice.
If prostitution is an option do you think they'd make a lot of money with other jobs, even if they had the same money as men?
So, with a market - remember the other reasons besides men being horny bastards that objectify women - and always someone to offer because it IS a last resort (or a choice regardless of circumstances) there will always be prostitution.
i never said men love to objectify women. i'm talking about its existence. i never said men are horny bastards. in fact, i mentioned women's horniness in response to one of unifiedscene's retarded posts. if you would pull your head out of your ass maybe you'd see that, or see that i could actually agree with some of what you say, and disagree with other stuff. but you never will. and that's why i'm done. bye now.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
I would never make it as a politician because I believe people should have the right to choose to do with their bodies as they wish, as long as it doesn't harm others. That's why I think that weed and prostitution should be absolutely legal, but regulated. I have yet to hear a valid argument why either should be outlawed. And I understand there are people forced into the sex trade, some at a very young age. This is totally different and should of course be illegal.
just so it's clear, it's because your post was fucking retarded.
again to be clear, collin didn't say this exactly: that men go to prostitutes because they want to objectify women. i object to the "horny fucks who love to" portion of his real statement. but you probably knew that. you're just being an asshole.
Yes, you never said that.
But please before there's more confusion; what exactly do you mean by the objectification of women and how does this cause men to go to prostitutes and how would prostitution "be stamped out [if] our patriarchal culture stops objectifying women"?
Because like I've been trying to say, that's bullshit, imo. I think there are many, many reasons why people resort to prostitution, both for the prostitute and the visitor, that are not connected with "the patriarchal culture" that "objectifies women."
If a woman wants to talk a guy into paying for a romp, then what right does the government have to intervene in this matter?
In terms of maintaining some semblance of public decency and accord on the streets, that's another situation altogether, and I fully support that.
There are services that can be listed discretely, and places of business that can also be visited for these services.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
i never said men love to objectify women. i'm talking about its existence. i never said men are horny bastards. in fact, i mentioned women's horniness in response to one of unifiedscene's retarded posts. if you would pull your head out of your ass maybe you'd see that, or see that i could actually agree with some of what you say, and disagree with other stuff. but you never will. and that's why i'm done. bye now.
You're right you never said that, I said that.
If you want to talk about the objectification of women, fine. Make a threat about it. It freaking exists, I know it and you know it but unless you can show me how that is the root of prostitution, this is off-topic and pointless.
Maybe if you pulled your ass out of your ass you'd see you made a mistake a few pages ago. Simple as that. But you never will.
edit: Well, I don't know if anyone will ever pull his ass out of his ass
I think a lot of this comes down to the fact that England is a country obsessed with sex, but that also happens to be one of the most sexually repressed, prudish, and backward countries when it comes to sex. It's also a country obsessed with being a nanny state and trying to control every aspect of everyone's lives. Everyone is obsessed with what goes on behind every door. Everyone needs to be labeled, categorized, and controlled. It's a bad combination.
The trouble with the English is that they can't mind their own fucking business - if you'll pardon the expression Obsessing about the private lives of others has become a kind of rampant sickness perpetuated by a culture of tabloid sensationalism, and sanctimonious voyeurism.
VG, I would like to add that I very much do hear what you are saying, and I agree with the validity of the degree women experience degrees of powerlessness in our society. I've personally experienced some degrees of that powerlessness, and to the point that I, at one time, seriously considered becoming an escort. And checked into it by calling agencies and even a lawyer. I've also mentioned in the past my childhood friend who currently runs an escort agency and another teenage friend who became a drug-addicted prostitute who was murdered by Canada's serial killer of prostitutes. There is a dark, dark underbelly here, where women come off as being very seriously victimized. I also fully understand your usage of adding quotes to the word "choice"...
Peace.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
sometimes people are put into situations where they have no choice.
I remember walking home in Seattle one night, it was cold, like 40 degrees, at 2 am something like that. And this girl was standing there shivering, asking me if I needed anything. She had no place to go, had nothing...and I said no and walked away and have regretted it ever since. she needed a place to stay, needed to get warm and I walked away. At the time I was thinking, holy shit a prostitute just asked me if I wanted to pay for sex, 2 blocks from my house. now that I look back I realize she had no choice, now I feel bad for her. and regret not just giving her fucking blanket for the night. what kind of world is this...
I don't think brothels, sex rings and such should be legalized, because it's exploitative. Someone said women choose to become prostitutes, but that's only because their other choices are even worse.
Even San Francisco overwhelmingly voted down legalizing prostitution. Sorry to sound moralistic, but let's have some common decency.
I don't think brothels, sex rings and such should be legalized, because it's exploitative. Someone said women choose to become prostitutes, but that's only because their other choices are even worse.
Even San Francisco overwhelmingly voted down legalizing prostitution. Sorry to sound moralistic, but let's have some common decency.
But then some people would rather have sex with strangers for money than work a 10 hour day in a factory for a fraction of the money. It's their choice.
But then some people would rather have sex with strangers for money than work a 10 hour day in a factory for a fraction of the money. It's their choice.
And I wouldn't blame them. I've worked in factories. I'd probably do the same thing. But let's get rid of all slavery. Let's get rid of the factories. Let's stop mass producing so much fucking junk. We should all be working much less, and enjoying ourselves a lot more.
And I wouldn't blame them. I've worked in factories. I'd probably do the same thing. But let's get rid of all slavery. Let's get rid of the factories. Let's stop mass producing so much fucking junk. We should all be working much less, and enjoying ourselves a lot more.
Comments
We each do it any time we treat one another like an object without feelings.
The psychological basis is that we've been objectified. We are out of touch with our own emotions, and therefore we automatically gloss over the emotions of others, because we don't have the ability to recognize or process them in ourselves or others (to a large degree). And we use any method/vice possible to deal with (deny) our emotions...TV watching, substance abuse, porn/sex addiction, workaholism etc...It's very clearly psychologically recognized as a base problem with humanity at this point in time.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Sure they are, and I fully support their right to hire a prostitute to satisfy those urges and I'm not going to whine about how objectified I feel because some women do just that.
Prostitutes objectifying themselves, and others objectifying them is a symptom of a larger issue--an issue which is very much on topic.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
are you saying that sex does not have anything to do with gender or sexuality and instead it's about commodification? sex is a product divorced of gender or sexuality implications? and because of this anyone who commodifies sex is exploiting themselves?
cross the river to the eastside
if it's about being horny then because more men use prostitutes than women, does that make men hornier than women?
cross the river to the eastside
Or lonelier, more desperate... whatever, you know. Not everyone goes to prostitutes because they're extremely horny fucks who love to objectify women. Has it occurred to you that they are just people. They have their owns lives, own histories and emotions. They could have several issues and plenty of reasons to visit a prostitute.
Likewise, despite the complete oppression of women, many women just choose it because it's an easy way to cash, just like selling drugs is or stealing stuff. Perhaps for some of these women 'dignity' isn't their priority but getting enough money to feed their habit or maybe even their kid.
Some women even enjoy their job as a prostitute.
naděje umírá poslední
1. Probably to an extent. Testosterone is medically heavily linked to sexual desire and men have more of it.
2. Even beyond that, women don't need prostitutes as much. They can go to any bar and get a guy with relative ease compared to a guy.
3. Even if women have the same desire, they seem to have more restraint. The fact is, sex is riskier for women. Their physiology leaves them more susceptible to contracting STD's. They could get pregnant. So women are generally more particular and choosy about partners. Thus, even if the levels of desire are the same, the demand for prostitutes might not be just because women rein in those desires and men are all too happy to indulge them.
Plus scientific research shows that 'Women Have Not Adapted To Casual Sex'
naděje umírá poslední
that question was to unifiedscene. i wasn't implying anything you're saying above.
cross the river to the eastside
i love your empirical methods.
wow. you're posting this? okay. i've stayed well beyond what i should have. there is a lot of real academic research i could post but i need to spend my time doing my real work now. i know this isn't going anywhere.
cross the river to the eastside
On the contrary, you have explicitly said in this thread exactly what he wrote in that post: that men go to prostitutes because they want to objectify women. Don't try to back down from that now.
Somehow I knew you'd have no response to that. But I can sympathize. I often like to pretend that reality isn't true because it doesn't suit my agenda too.
No, but you've been implying this entire thread that prostitution is the spawn of the male-dominated world that loves to objectify women.
My points are the clientele of prostitutes consists of many different folks, not just horny bastards. So, no even if the patriarchal society with its objectification of women perishes prostitution will still be around because that's certainly not the only reason why men go to prostitutes.
Secondly, women are not forced into it. It's a choice. They are adults and they choose to do it. If you think every prostitute is forced into it because the entire society oppresses women, so be it. I disagree and I think most reasonable people would as well.
People are responsible for their own actions. I can definitely understand why they do certain things from murder, to theft to going into prostitution, not that I would ever equate the latter with the former two. Even when the objectification of women stops (by women too, by the way - just a freakin' guilty) I say it'll be there because those people have other priorities, their dignity doesn't matter when they have starving kids at home or going fucking mad without their drug of choice.
If prostitution is an option do you think they'd make a lot of money with other jobs, even if they had the same money as men?
So, with a market - remember the other reasons besides men being horny bastards that objectify women - and always someone to offer because it IS a last resort (or a choice regardless of circumstances) there will always be prostitution.
naděje umírá poslední
just so it's clear, it's because your post was fucking retarded.
again to be clear, collin didn't say this exactly: that men go to prostitutes because they want to objectify women. i object to the "horny fucks who love to" portion of his real statement. but you probably knew that. you're just being an asshole.
cross the river to the eastside
Wow, yes, I am.
Until you show me your real academic research I'll just have to take Anne Campbell's word for it, whose articles, by the way, have been published in peer reviewed academic journals.
Hardly a credible source, I understand you complete amazement.
So whenever you find the time post those real studies, I'll gladly read them.
naděje umírá poslední
My post? I said I knew you wouldn't have a response to the link he posted about women and casual sex. Because women like you, the ones giving feminists a bad name by screaming bloody murder and blaming every ill in the world on the patriarchy oppressing women, you like to pretend that there are no differences between men and women. And it's funny to observe the lengths you will go to to turn a blind eye to overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
And it sounds like you're playing semantics. He took liberties with his language to demonstrate just how absurd your stance on this matter is. There is a lot more to prostitution than some insidious concerted plot by men to keep women down. Most of it is as simple as: guys want to have sex and like being able to have it as easily as possible. For all the shit you've been spewing about men objectifying women, you sure are quick to throw out stereotypes and demean men for universally being objectifying pigs.
i never said men love to objectify women. i'm talking about its existence. i never said men are horny bastards. in fact, i mentioned women's horniness in response to one of unifiedscene's retarded posts. if you would pull your head out of your ass maybe you'd see that, or see that i could actually agree with some of what you say, and disagree with other stuff. but you never will. and that's why i'm done. bye now.
cross the river to the eastside
Yes, you never said that.
But please before there's more confusion; what exactly do you mean by the objectification of women and how does this cause men to go to prostitutes and how would prostitution "be stamped out [if] our patriarchal culture stops objectifying women"?
Because like I've been trying to say, that's bullshit, imo. I think there are many, many reasons why people resort to prostitution, both for the prostitute and the visitor, that are not connected with "the patriarchal culture" that "objectifies women."
naděje umírá poslední
In terms of maintaining some semblance of public decency and accord on the streets, that's another situation altogether, and I fully support that.
There are services that can be listed discretely, and places of business that can also be visited for these services.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
You're right you never said that, I said that.
If you want to talk about the objectification of women, fine. Make a threat about it. It freaking exists, I know it and you know it but unless you can show me how that is the root of prostitution, this is off-topic and pointless.
Maybe if you pulled your ass out of your ass you'd see you made a mistake a few pages ago. Simple as that. But you never will.
edit: Well, I don't know if anyone will ever pull his ass out of his ass
naděje umírá poslední
The trouble with the English is that they can't mind their own fucking business - if you'll pardon the expression
Peace.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I remember walking home in Seattle one night, it was cold, like 40 degrees, at 2 am something like that. And this girl was standing there shivering, asking me if I needed anything. She had no place to go, had nothing...and I said no and walked away and have regretted it ever since. she needed a place to stay, needed to get warm and I walked away. At the time I was thinking, holy shit a prostitute just asked me if I wanted to pay for sex, 2 blocks from my house. now that I look back I realize she had no choice, now I feel bad for her. and regret not just giving her fucking blanket for the night. what kind of world is this...
Even San Francisco overwhelmingly voted down legalizing prostitution. Sorry to sound moralistic, but let's have some common decency.
But then some people would rather have sex with strangers for money than work a 10 hour day in a factory for a fraction of the money. It's their choice.
And I wouldn't blame them. I've worked in factories. I'd probably do the same thing. But let's get rid of all slavery. Let's get rid of the factories. Let's stop mass producing so much fucking junk. We should all be working much less, and enjoying ourselves a lot more.
True.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!