can you see both sides?

mammasan · July 2006

NCfan wrote:

I was one of those conservatives who supported Israeli actions. However, after absorbing the situation, I have to agree now that Israel has gone way too far.

Regardless if I think it is justified or not, their actions are not promoting a solution - only breeding more hatred and violence that will ultimately come back to them and the rest of the Western world.

Do I think the Israeli's have a right to do what they are doing? I sure do. But I think taking a different approach is the best way to solve this conflict.

The people I'm pointing the finger at now are the rest of the Western, modernized world and China (and yes the US too). If they could join together and throw all their weight into a unified solution - when would be on the road to peace.

The US gives 2.5 billion a year to Israel and 400 million to Lebanon. Now you tell me who the priority should be? A fledgling democracy or one of the most prosperous countries in the world. If Bush was true to his word about spreading democracy, it seems he would try a little harder to support Lebanon.

But that doesn't seem likely anytime soon. It completely baffles me why Israel and the US would want to destroy the infastructure and undermine one of the few democratic regimes in the entire Middle East (Lebanon).

I preach on here about how many of you liberals go too far in condeming the US, so much so that it seems as if you want to destroy our democratic society rather than fix it.

Much the same way, it doesn't seem like Israel wants to fix the Lebonese political structure - just destroy it. Who do they think is going to fill that Vacuum?

I have always stated that you post some of the most well thought out intersting and informative posts on this messageboard, wether I agree with them or not. Many time you and I don't see completely eye to eye, but I have to say I completely agree with you this time. Great post.

rebornFixer · July 2006

Ahnimus wrote:

Israel is still occupying Palestine, lots of activity there in the last few days aswell.

Interesting poll results ... Israel is the single leader at 32%, but when you tally up Hezbollah and its 2 allies, you get 43%. Surprising, considering the website.

cincybearcat · July 2006

El_Kabong wrote:

it seems the liberal side (as in what i mean by 'my side' no matter how much some ppl try to twist that statement) is the only one that can say both sides do bad things. we constantly say suicide bombing is wrong and we don't support hezbollah or hamas.

yet the other side rarely does this. in fact, if you post anything negative about israel you are called anti-semetic, anti-jew, that you hate israel...that you fail to see the other side...but it seems like the liberals are the only ones who see both sides!

the overwhelming majority of liberals here admit these actions are wrong and these groups are bad. yet i can only count 2 of the pro-israeli ppl who have stated they think they have gone too far. that's quite a gap.

we are constantly criticized for not condemning the actions of these groups (which we do) but i posted videos showing the IDF beating peaceful protestors then shooting taer gas into the ambulance that came to take them to the hospital! and there was no condemnation from that side

i posted pics of israeli children signing messages on bombs for arabs and all i get is someone posting a pic of an adult holding a shoe.

i post an article about israeli soldiers getting letters from israeli children filled w/ messages of hate and asking them to kill as many arabs as they can and other hateful things. to that there was silence from the other side. i hear all this talk about warping the minds of arab kids (and i agree certain groups do that) but why are you so silent on this?

i posted a video of the IDF throwing stun grenades into the middle of women and children at a peaceful protest and then beating ppl and opening fire w/ their rifles...and there was nothing.

in fact all i got was told ot stop posting these things. ironic considering they've never told miller to stop his threads or illana to stop her hate fueled posts. so why silence this from being seen? news of suicide bombings are in the news all the time, these things are not, so why do you want to stop them from being seen?

but more importantly why won't you see that it's wrong and say it? like i said, so far i've only seen 2 ppl (zstillings and reborn) say they thought israel was going too far recently...where's the rest of you? instead you try to justify it and make silly conspiracies about satan is guiding the muslims and this is a war between god and satan (:rolleyes:)

see how easy it an be?
hezbollah are assholes, so is hamas, so is any group like that that preys on the plight of these ppl and use it for their fanatic aims.

suicide bombings are wrong

anything that inflicts harm or death upon an innocent person, especially women and kids is one of the worst things you can do.

so...come on. so far israel is killing at more than a 9:1 ratio. before that israel killed 5 palestinian kids for every 1 israeli child killed. an overwhelming number of palestinian kids live w/ mild-severe malnutrition b/c of the actions of israel.

so why can't you guys do that? why can't you separate the government from the ppl? the ppl are the ones suffering on both sides b/c of this shit.

Seriously, why are you spreading bullshit?

Did you ever watch 'Death IN Gaza'? Did you see the palestinian kids making homemade bombs? Did you see the part where the kids talked about being actively recruited to do the work of terrorists? DId you hear the kids rhetoric about the 'pigs' etc that the Israeli's are? Or did you just see the part about the Israeli army?

Sure, in these conflicts both sides are doing wrong. I think most people would say that. Of course it's all too common for someone on 'your side' to say...'suicide bombing is bad BUT...now, do you really believe that? Doesn't seem so from most of the talk I see. The suicide bombers are forced into killing Israeli kids at the movie theater, huh?

Sure, some here (and everywhere) support Israel full tilt, but I think your numbers are way fucked up.

Purple Hawk · July 2006

El_Kabong wrote:

we constantly say suicide bombing is wrong and we don't support hezbollah or hamas.

With all due respect, how does that deserve any type of praise? I'm glad you feel that way, but it would be much more constructive to figure out ways to thwart their activities instead of attacking every initiative that the government has ever put forth to combat radical islamic terrorists. It might even be more constructive to recognize that terrorist attacks are just that, and not a ploy by George W. Bush to take over the world.

As far as criticizing Israel, I don't care to engage in circular philosophical arguments. I do find it interesting that many on the left (not necessarily you) blame the US for 911 b/c of their foreign policy. Yet, when terrorist organizations use civilians as human shields, they fail to blame the terrorist group with the deaths of the civilians. Instead, they blame the nation state taking the necessary actions.

Ahnimus · July 2006

Purple Hawk wrote:

With all due respect, how does that deserve any type of praise? I'm glad you feel that way, but it would be much more constructive to figure out ways to thwart their activities instead of attacking every initiative that the government has ever put forth to combat radical islamic terrorists. It might even be more constructive to recognize that terrorist attacks are just that, and not a ploy by George W. Bush to take over the world.

As far as criticizing Israel, I don't care to engage in circular philosophical arguments. I do find it interesting that many on the left (not necessarily you) blame the US for 911 b/c of their foreign policy. Yet, when terrorist organizations use civilians as human shields, they fail to blame the terrorist group with the deaths of the civilians. Instead, they blame the nation state taking the necessary actions.

You would be a great hostage negotiator, "Shoot the hostage!".

Truthmonger · July 2006

69charger wrote:

And the conservatives are the only ones who understand you have to pick a side.

Right vs. Wrong.

Good vs. Evil.

Israel has tried to capitulate to these psychos and they still try to wipe them off the face of the Earth. Hezbollah started this, Israel has a right to put an end to it.

How do you think the American people would react if missiles were raining down on Buffalo from Toronto?

I come back to the MT after 6 months away and this is what I get !! Well, fuck me. This post is so laden with Freudian slips and other revealing rhetoric that its sickening. First of all, one doesn't pick a side for the sake of picking a side, or as foreplay for armageddon, you tool - rather, it looks to nuances and seeks, to the best of one's abilility, the truth. Remember the truth ? Remember nuances ? Objectivity ? I know these are foreign concepts to many conservatives, especially on this website, but they should be sought out at all costs.

This statement killed me: "Israel has tried to capitulate to these psychos...". See, what this statement really signifies is a totally mistaken belief that Israel has played fair when it comes to "negotiations", OR, more likely, that negotiation on the part of Israel is tantamount to capitulation. Don't be too ashamed to admit it 69er, in fact its one of the most common complaints about the Israeli gov't over the years, even among Israeli's themselves.

And what about this statement: "Hezbollah started this, israel has a right to put an end to it". But is that what israel is really doing now ? i doubt it. What they're really doing is killing civilians by the boatload, and only marginally eliminating the people who started this recent bullshit. Oh sorry, maybe that's a little too nuanced for you. Oh well, close enough right ? After all, you've chosen sides already, and well, you can't start splitting hairs now, right ? What's a few hundred dead civilians, and 500,000 misplaced ? (By the way, I'd personally like to take this opportunity to thank Israel for killing 8 of my fellow Canadians who happened to be visiting Lebanon at the time). You seem to be of the same mind as this person who wrote an editorial in Haaretz today : notice his similar omission of the dead civilians who had absolutely nothing to do with bombing Israel, but whose lives are being torn apart.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/739978.html

And i already know how the U.S. would react about an invasion - it too would attack whoever it sees fit, even if it had nothing to do with the initial event or stimulus. Iraq ring a bell ? Vietnam ? Cuba ?........

Purple Hawk · July 2006

Ahnimus wrote:

You would be a great hostage negotiator, "Shoot the hostage!".

That's clever.

What is your opinion? If a group of "militants" hide behind human shields, who bears the responsibilty for their blood? If you don't believe that it's the militants' responsibility, is this consistent with the idea that we bear responsibility for our "fascist" foreign policy decisions? Seems to me that the blame over civilian deaths (be it our own or that of other nations) is always directed towards us.

Ahnimus · July 2006

Purple Hawk wrote:

That's clever.

What is your opinion? If a group of "militants" hide behind human shields, who bears the responsibilty for their blood? If you don't believe that it's the militants' responsibility, is this consistent with the idea that we bear responsibility for our "fascist" foreign policy decisions? Seems to me that the blame over civilian deaths (be it our own or that of other nations) is always directed towards us.

We need to identify why these groups are doing it. Then we can resolve the underlying humanitarian problems to prevent future occurances. People don't do these things for fun, it's motivated by crisis.

Purple Hawk · July 2006

Ahnimus wrote:

We need to identify why these groups are doing it.

I take them at their word. Why do you think they are doing it? Even better, why do you think Israel is doing what it's doing?

Ahnimus · July 2006

Purple Hawk wrote:

I take them at their word. Why do you think they are doing it? Even better, why do you think Israel is doing what it's doing?

I think I've gone over this 100 times. Zionism is the religious belief that Jews should have a state in the homeland of Israel around Jerusalem. That's the main reason Israel was reestablished. The Balfour declaration by the British empire gave portions of palestine to the jewish people. Things we seemingly ok with the arabs with jews settling back in palestine. In 1948 Israel declared it's independance from palestine which upset the arab world. Fighting raged for a long time, the Israeli military received billions worth of aid from the US government. Israel successfully destroyed her opposition. Israel launched a counter-offensive and by 1967 controlled all of palestine. A UN resolution had Israel give back parts of palestine (Gaza Strip and West Bank), however Israel still occupies those regions and has more than 1000 colonies in them. By international law, an occupying force cannot destroy homes for the purposes of colonization, they can't colonize on occupied territory either. However Israel continues to do this. There have been literally dozens of UN resolutions which I provided links to a few months ago, asking Israel to leave palestine alone, establishing palestine as a sovereign entity and to provide aid to palestine, the United States has vetoed every one of those resolutions.

So, to answer your question. The arabs do what they do to protect their land and regain their sovereignty. The jews do what they do because arabs are their mortal enemy and they want ultimate control over the promised land, as was laid out for them by Moses on Mt. Sinai.

Eliot Rosewater · July 2006

thankyougrandma wrote:

i could be wrong, but i doubt they'd act like Israel are right now... wow...

you say that as if America isn't behind this shit....hasn't anyone noticed that those are our bombs and warships hitting Lebanon? Israel is just another one of America's bitches and dubya is now drinking the blood of Lebanese women and children.

Eliot Rosewater · July 2006

polaris wrote:

yeah ... but what came first?? ... its clear the oppression of the palestinians well before any suicide bombing took place ... any efforts by the int'l community to address these actions have constantly been thwarted by the americans ...

much of the middle east would just like to live on its own term but if you look at who has done the most meddling in the region you will see a familiar face ...

Fantastic post. I'm amazed that some people can't see this. It's about finding a solution rather than trying to cover up a problem or use some sort of quick fix on it.

Eliot Rosewater · July 2006

PaperPlates wrote:

Your ratio of "hezbollah condemnation" threads to "Israel condemnation" threads is WELL above 9:1.

Well, it's clear that Israel are terrorists just like the U.S. It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber. Many of us would do the same goddamn thing if we were in their shoes. IMO the west needs to just stay the fuck out of the east and try to live in peace with itself.

Eliot Rosewater · July 2006

Ahnimus wrote:

This conflict began with the Balfour declaration. The entire arab world protested the institution of a state called Israel, where only Jews would be allowed to live, on palestinian land. Israel defeated all it's opposition with the help of US military funding. Israel fought back and in 1967 completely whiped out Palestine. After being forced to draw back, Israel continued to occupy the Gaza strip and the west bank. To this day there are thousands of Jewish/Israeli settlements on palestinian land, all of the roads in palestine rerouted to suit the Israel road map. Israel has occupied palestine for almost 50 years destroying the homes of palestinians claiming "they have no building permit" (but they are on palestinian land) Israel then builds jewish settlements on that land and restricts palestinians from entering.

This started happening before any suicide bombings. Kids would be shot down by IDF for throwing stones at Israeli settlers in palestine and IDF soldiers in palestine. Suicide bombings, although wrong, are a greater form of resistance than throwing stones at tanks. This you have to understand, palestine does not have a military, they get some aid from the arab world, but the arab world has been put on the "Terrorist List" for it. The real terrorists are Israel for stealing palestinian land and murdering hundreds of thousands of arabs and the United States for it's support of Israel and it's complacency in the genocide of arabs.

The rest of the world knows this, it's just in the western world that our view of the middle-east is false. We fail to recognize the true nature of things, due to the down-playing of Israeli occupation by the US media and government. The media constantly calls Israeli settlements in palestine "peaceful neighbourhoods" and calls Israel's military actions "defense". But if you turn on the BBC or MOSAIC television, you will see the true brutality of the Israeli occupation and the true nature of terrorism.

Google Video: Peace, Propaganda and the Promised Land
This video explains my points exactly.

I condemn violence of all kinds, however, if faced with these circumstances I can't say I would react any differently.

Easily the best post I've read in weeks. In fact, I'm done with this thread because you've said exactly what needed to be said and I hope those who are clueless can try to read and understand what you posted. Good job.

El_Kabong · July 2006

i haven't had time to read all the replies but i will address some of the replies i've seen, but first:

i worded the original post poorly...i wrote it in a fit of frustration and hyper-sensitivity. i've always been very empathetic...i've been donating christmas and birthday money to wildlife and environmental groups since i was in middle school.

anyway, i understand it seems childish and putting ppl in a 'my side vs your side' kinda thing.

cincy-no, i havent' seen death in gaza yet...no video store around here has it but i have been looking for it. why else would i have pm'd you asking you the name of it again?

reborn- yes, you were one of the 2 i named

nmytree- i did not see your thread you had mentioned so my apologies. and you're right, i don't start threads myself about suicide bombings or other terroristic acts.

i guess i'm hypersensitive...when i saw the attack start last week i just got this horrible feeling in the pit of my stomach thinking of all the death of innocent ppl, and yes, that happens every day, but not on this scale. i also see this as a beginning of something veeeeeery bad. you see israel and bush are already lumping iran into this and i think this is a pretext for more war and death.

the reason i don't give as much light to suicide bombing and such is b/c i dont' see the scale as being the same. i also see those actions as reactionary. i know others see israel's actions as the same but i don't see it that way. i think if things like the videos and articles i have been posting this last week (the idf shooting tear gas into an ambulance that came to take away the ppl the idf beat during a non violent protest, shooting tear gas at ppl holding a memorial for rachel corrie and shooting at them, the article about israeli kids writing to idf very horrid things, the video of israeli kids throwing rocks at arabs, the pics of israeli girls gleefully signing bombs that will kill a lot of innocent ppl not involved in hezbollah, the video of the idf throwing stun grenades into the middle of women and kids...)

the israelis are a nuclear power...they receive billions in weaponry from the US...the other side gets weapons but not nearly the amount or scale israel does.

i jsut see israel as the aggressors. and yes, i do say 'it's wrong, but...' and that's b/c i think the palestinians are caught in a very bad situation. the majority of their children live w/ malnutrtion b/c of the checkpoints.

and yes, cincy, i know arab kids are brainwashed to hate israelis and that is horrid. but what doesn't get tossed around here is the israeli children are pretty much in the same boat...being brainwashed to hate. why else would school kids write to idf to kill as many arabs as they could and all the other things? why else would they throw rocks and hit arabs just for being there?

also, the media shows the suicide bombings and it's effects...you never see the stuff i've posted. i understand i went about it wrong w/ this thread, but fuck...look at how many ppl are dying!!! and for what? for bullshit!

the point was you don't see as many ppl condemn the actions of the israelis on the scale you see ppl condemn the actions of groups like hezbollah and hamas. instead you see constant justifications, you see the 'yeah, but...'s on that side, too. look at 69charger's post...if the arabs didn't do this then israel wouldn't do that...i think that's bs, especially if you watch the videos i've posted....i think things like that are what drive palesitinians to groups like that. they see no matter what, even if they act nice and don't do anything bad they are still shit upon, beaten, shot at, tear gassed....they try to take their kids to the doctors in another town and it's up in the air if they will even be let past the checkpoint to get there. i think if they weren't put in such a shitty situation they wouldn't feel all is lost so act out while you can and make them pay.

the actions are not the same. suicide bombings don't happen as often as the abuses from israel.

it jsut seems like israel gets a pass and their actions rationalized on a far greater scale. i think the palestinians feel so down and like there's no hope so they lash out like this. they don't ahve apache's, they have rocks and some weapons from syria and iran...not nearly the same as what israel gets.

PaperPlates · July 2006

don't gimme no wrote:

Well, it's clear that Israel are terrorists just like the U.S. It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber. Many of us would do the same goddamn thing if we were in their shoes. IMO the west needs to just stay the fuck out of the east and try to live in peace with itself.

It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.

Get help.

El_Kabong · July 2006

PaperPlates wrote:

It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.

Get help.

well it's true...it's far easier to sympathize w/ women and children having stu grenades thrown at them, then tear gassed then have the idf shoot at them than it is to sympathize w/ the idf doing it.

PaperPlates · July 2006

El_Kabong wrote:

well it's true...it's far easier to sympathize w/ women and children having stu grenades thrown at them, then tear gassed then have the idf shoot at them than it is to sympathize w/ the idf doing it.

only for bleeding hearts. Do you feel bad when you see a bully who has picked on a small kid for weeks, when the little kid gets some better help and kicks the snot out of the bully? Do you feel bad for that bully? Just because Israel (the kid) has better weapons now, suddenly its wrong for them to fight back against the bully? You seem to ONLY look at deathcounts as your "thing" to use to pass judgement. Wars that are evenly matched balistics-wise usually end up in HUGE casualty counts. You can't just look at deathcounts to critisize with. Reason's for them count. For whatever reason, people's idealogies vary so greatly, that agreement upon the reason's behind the anger and hatred there will never be evenly viewed. All I know is, the problems "over there" go MUCH deeper than the US of A.

PaperPlates · July 2006

PaperPlates wrote:

It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.
It's far easier to sympathize with a suicide bomber.

Get help.

Liberal's ALWAYS want the easy way out. Its ingrained in their mindset. Sadly.

mammasan · July 2006

PaperPlates wrote:

Liberal's ALWAYS want the easy way out. Its ingrained in their mindset. Sadly.

Don't you think you are painting wide stroke with a mighty big brush there.

can you see both sides?

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